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Hunting >> Hunting in Africa & hunting dangerous game

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bwananelson
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Reged: 08/10/07
Posts: 1195
Loc: DELTONA FLORIDA
the big 5
      #138463 - 05/07/09 05:08 AM

to me i think we are going to see big changes in the hunting of the big 5,the rhino is all but done oh yea you cough give him a good buzz take a picture and then wake him up.elephant have been poached and market hunted for 150 years,leopard are holding their own,but lions are estimated at 40,000 left in Africa and their current biggest threat is not man it dogs they are getting canine diseases and you are going to see an end to lion hunting the quotas are getting tighter and tighter i am almost certain in our lifetime what we have left of it as most of us are aging we will see an end.the canned hunts were stopped or changed so you can see a trend.by the time i get to africa i may never hear a wild lion roar.sad but i am afraid true

--------------------
THERE ARE NO DO OVERS IN LIFE DONT LET A CHANCE AT A DREAM SLIP AWAY.


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grandveneur
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Reged: 21/09/08
Posts: 1356
Loc: France / Germany
Re: the big 5 [Re: bwananelson]
      #138466 - 05/07/09 05:36 AM

We are "the last of the fews", trophy hunting is finish for the next generations!

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cooch
.300 member


Reged: 21/09/03
Posts: 192
Loc: Southern NSW
Re: the big 5 [Re: grandveneur]
      #138506 - 05/07/09 07:18 PM

I hope that you are wrong.

One only has to look at how quickly the Black Rhino declined in numbers once all hunting was banned, to realise how desperately game management in Africa needs the funds which only sport hunting can generate.

Peter

--------------------
"The only logical response to an animal that lives obsessed with avoiding capture is to chase it." - Jose Ortega y Gassett


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Tatume
.400 member


Reged: 09/06/07
Posts: 1091
Loc: Gloucester, Va USA
Re: the big 5 [Re: cooch]
      #138511 - 05/07/09 09:28 PM

Quote:

One only has to look at how quickly the Black Rhino declined in numbers once all hunting was banned, to realise how desperately game management in Africa needs the funds which only sport hunting can generate.




The mechanism seems to be somewhat more strongly in favor of hunting. More than game management is needed. If the animal has no value to the majority of affected people, they will have no interest in conservation. Worse is the case in which the animal is considered detrimental, such as when they raid crops. People may then support the poachers.

Once sport hunters are allowed to bring a large influx of money into the equation, people realize that the animals are valuable TO THEM. They earn their livelihood in an industry supported by hunting. Not only is money available to hire game managers and wardens, but the people at large turn against the poachers. Instead of starving when crops are destroyed by marauding animals, hunters pay big bucks to come hunt those animals.

--------------------
Take care, Tom
NRA Life Member


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bwananelson
.400 member


Reged: 08/10/07
Posts: 1195
Loc: DELTONA FLORIDA
Re: the big 5 [Re: Tatume]
      #138512 - 05/07/09 10:22 PM

what about the dog population transmiting disease,cant some of those huge trophy fees be used to do a vacination program or just increase the trophy fee,the rich wont miss a few dollars in fees or rotate seasons like brown bear just open every 2nd or third year.they are prolific and will rebound fast

--------------------
THERE ARE NO DO OVERS IN LIFE DONT LET A CHANCE AT A DREAM SLIP AWAY.


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grandveneur
.400 member


Reged: 21/09/08
Posts: 1356
Loc: France / Germany
Re: the big 5 [Re: Tatume]
      #138513 - 05/07/09 11:25 PM

In Africa to get food is a problem each day for the local people! I stay sometimes in Africa because i have a house in Ouagadougou/Burkina Faso and for this reason i go oftens to the market. The prices of food, especially for corn increase for a lot of bad reasons, bioenergy is one! Very difficult to speak about game conservation and wild life management with the local people!

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: the big 5 [Re: grandveneur]
      #138514 - 05/07/09 11:36 PM


my uncle once went to india back in the 60's when a lot of
aid (in terms of money) was being given out.
'
he made the comment that you would have been better off giving them all a shovel, fork and a wheel barrow
and to dig a few wells than pump millions of $ in aid.

I think to an extent the same may apply in Africa.


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grandveneur
.400 member


Reged: 21/09/08
Posts: 1356
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Re: the big 5 [Re: 500Nitro]
      #138515 - 05/07/09 11:44 PM

A taste of colonialism! Today this peoples have the same needs that we have!

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
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Re: the big 5 [Re: grandveneur]
      #138517 - 05/07/09 11:54 PM

Quote:

A taste of colonialism! Today this peoples have the same needs that we have!




I think maybe a few simpler needs than what some of us need.

I am sure they don't think about internet speeds, internet forums or the next double rifle purchase to add to the collection !

But I am sure they think about Water, crops and where the next feed is coming from.

What they don't seem to have is a sustainable food and water supply.

Just my HO. I would be interested in your opinion.


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grandveneur
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Reged: 21/09/08
Posts: 1356
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Re: the big 5 [Re: Tatume]
      #138518 - 06/07/09 12:02 AM

My opinion is, for different reasons not objectiv! The political situation is oftens a problem in Africa. By the way, meat is the first value, before cash! If we want to preserve the game in Africa, we need a game management and as traditional german hunters, we have our concept! Hunting and wildlife management is possible , but trophy hunting is the problem!

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grandveneur
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Reged: 21/09/08
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Re: the big 5 [Re: 500Nitro]
      #138519 - 06/07/09 12:06 AM

They have cellular phones and sometimes computers, and no trinking water!!!

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grandveneur
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Reged: 21/09/08
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Re: the big 5 [Re: 500Nitro]
      #138522 - 06/07/09 12:25 AM

I forget TV!!!! The first possibility of (wrong) informations about the rest of the world! Africa is a dream for a lot of hunters, and that is OK! But the reality is a little bit different, and dont forget, most of the people live in very big city's and not in the bush!

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Ripp
.577 member


Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: the big 5 [Re: grandveneur]
      #138537 - 06/07/09 10:01 AM

Quote:

My opinion is, for different reasons not objectiv! The political situation is oftens a problem in Africa. By the way, meat is the first value, before cash! If we want to preserve the game in Africa, we need a game management and as traditional german hunters, we have our concept! Hunting and wildlife management is possible , but trophy hunting is the problem!




Curious as to why you feel trophy hunting is a problem? If you don't mind please explain. Would be interested in your perspective on this.

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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grandveneur
.400 member


Reged: 21/09/08
Posts: 1356
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Re: the big 5 [Re: Ripp]
      #138548 - 06/07/09 06:46 PM

The notion of trophy hunting is may be not the same for all people. In few words, for me trophy hunting is to harvesting the biggest and the most beautiful animal that we can see, without consideration of breeding or guide roll in a herd. There is imo the first problem by the conservation of a species. The genetics diversity is a another one by isolate population. In practice, the sportsmans have to think about, if by buffalo hunting, for exemple, we shoot in the future only daggaboys. The rest is the job of the PH's to manage the herds.

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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
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Re: the big 5 [Re: grandveneur]
      #138558 - 07/07/09 12:03 AM

I can see your point; however, my thought is a bit different. First for me, trophy hunting does not have to be the biggest in the world..but big and awesome too me. My thoughts also are that if an animal has gotten to be the biggest in the area, there has been more than ample time for him to pass along his genetics, therefore it will not hurt or hinder the herd and in fact me help it by allowing other genetics to enter in the area as well. I may be crazy but those are my thoughts..

Thanks..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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bwananelson
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Reged: 08/10/07
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Re: the big 5 [Re: Ripp]
      #138561 - 07/07/09 12:36 AM

why not then have the season start after the breeding season.

--------------------
THERE ARE NO DO OVERS IN LIFE DONT LET A CHANCE AT A DREAM SLIP AWAY.


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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: the big 5 [Re: grandveneur]
      #138571 - 07/07/09 05:00 AM

Quote:

My opinion is, for different reasons not objectiv! The political situation is oftens a problem in Africa. By the way, meat is the first value, before cash! If we want to preserve the game in Africa, we need a game management and as traditional german hunters, we have our concept! Hunting and wildlife management is possible , but trophy hunting is the problem!





You need or can do a combination of both.

The systems need to be set up to produce the food required
- and what is needed to sustain that - like water.


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cooch
.300 member


Reged: 21/09/03
Posts: 192
Loc: Southern NSW
Re: the big 5 [Re: 500Nitro]
      #138574 - 07/07/09 05:46 AM

Trophy hunting is the solution, not the problem.

It is only trophy hunting that allows a small percentage of the population to be harvested for a sufficiently high price - that it makes the game species a money-earner for the local population without over-exploiting the resource.

As has been pointed out, the majority of "trophy" animals are those which are in the latter period of their maturity, and have already had several seasons in which to pass on their genetics.

Yes, management is required.

There is no reason why it should not be. It's neither new, nor particularly complicated, and is entirely compatible with sustainable use to the benefit of hunters, local inhabitants, and the environment.

Throwing up our hands and putting it all in the "too hard" category is what destroys both game populations, and the environment.

--------------------
"The only logical response to an animal that lives obsessed with avoiding capture is to chase it." - Jose Ortega y Gassett


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cooch
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Reged: 21/09/03
Posts: 192
Loc: Southern NSW
Re: the big 5 [Re: cooch]
      #138575 - 07/07/09 05:48 AM

Paper for Presentation at A Symposium
UN and Regional Small Arms Regulation:
Issues Concerning Civilian Firearms Ownership
in Search of Common Ground
Sponsored by the World Forum On The Future of Sports Shooting Activities
May 2, 2003 The Tower of London

Peaceful Arms: Hunting and Sport Shooting as Culture and Heritage
by James A. Swan, Ph.D.

Execrpt:

"Hunting, especially big game hunting, is also a major force in encouraging conservation and promoting economic self-sufficiency in native cultures. In Africa, in l979 the wild elephant herd was 1.3 million. By 1989, it was sliced in half to 600,000, largely due to uncontrolled poaching. To curb the decline, importation of ivory was banned, and some countries forbade sport hunting for elephants. In places where hunting has been banned, elephant populations have plummeted even more. Kenya banned elephant hunting in 1977. Poachers subsequently butchered the herds, as supervision of the animals also declined with the loss of revenue from hunting. In less than two decades, Kenya's elephant herd went from 150,000 to less than 6,000."

"Botswana, in contrast, permitted big game hunting, and in the same period of time, their elephant herd has quadrupled. The key here is that hunters pump considerable money into the local economy, which increases the value of the animals to local natives, provides jobs and fresh meat for many, and supports wildlife research and law enforcement. It is estimated that hunters spend $35 million to $65 million dollars a year on African elephant hunting safaris. The white rhino in South Africa has similarly increased in numbers, thanks to hunters' dollars."

"In 1980, Zimbabwe had 40,000 elephants. Today, after 22 years of carefully regulated hunting, they have 88,000 pachyderms. According to Ed Adobe, Chairman of the Zimbabwe Wildlife Advisory Council, eco-tourists may outnumber the hunters, but the hunters outspend them, $15 million to $10 million. When eco-tourists come in, they whisk around in a jeep for a couple days, wine and dine, and leave. Hunters stay longer, pay trophy fees and guides, and the meat from animals killed goes to local villages, along with skins and bones that can be used for clothing and arts and crafts."

"The program that oversees hunting in Zimbabwe is called CAMPFIRE (Communal Areas Management Programmed for Indigenous Resources). (37) Under CAMPFIRE, people living on impoverished communal lands, which represent 42% of the country, claim the right of proprietorship, including wildlife. CAMPFIRE offers people an alternative to destructive uses of the land by making wildlife a valuable resource. Wildlife, in fact, is the most economically and ecologically-sound land use in much of Zimbabwe."

"Since its official inception in 1989, more than a quarter of a million people have been involved in managing wildlife through CAMPFIRE. It has been so successful that South Africa, Namibia, Zambia, Mozambique and Botswana are now developing programs similar to Zimbabwe, sometimes using relocated Zimbabwe animals."

The entire article is here:
http://www.jamesswan.com/Paper%20for...0Symposium.htm


Taming Animal Rights Activists

U.S. animal rights activists are on a crusade, not only to hinder medical research by denying scientists the right to use animals in research, but also to eliminate the killing of wildlife in Africa.

Having endangered scientific research programs here, they are out to deny a source of livelihood to many poor African villagers.

* Twenty-nine of the world's 36 poorest countries are African -- with an estimated 150 million to 325 million Africans earning less than $1 a day.

* Yet in Zimbabwe, revenues from a sport hunting program has built several health clinics in rural villages and generated millions of dollars split among communities.

* In one village, each of the approximately 120 households earned $450 by selling their legal hunting rights to a safari operator, whose clients paid him for the privilege of hunting elephants nearby.

Statistics from Kenya point out just how deadly elephants can be.

* At least 358 Kenyans have died as a result of elephant-human clashes since 1990.

* In some districts elephants reportedly kill more people who are protecting their own crops than poachers kill elephants.

* Experts say that if landowners can't make money from wildlife, they will wipe it out.

Kenya did what animal rights activists proposed: they banned all hunting in 1977. But Zimbabwe granted proprietorship over wildlife to landowners in 1982 and allows hunting.

The result?

* Between 1970 and 1989, Kenya's elephant population plunged from 167,000 to 16,000.

* But in Zimbabwe, the population increased from less than 40,000 to more than 50,000 since 1982.

Source: Ike C. Sugg (Competitive Enterprise Institute), "Selling Hunting Rights Saves Animals," Wall Street Journal, July 24, 1996.
from: http://www.ncpa.org/pd/pdenv41.html
__________________

--------------------
"The only logical response to an animal that lives obsessed with avoiding capture is to chase it." - Jose Ortega y Gassett


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Ripp
.577 member


Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: the big 5 [Re: cooch]
      #138586 - 07/07/09 10:43 AM

Quote:

why not then have the season start after the breeding season.




Actually in many areas they already do--most of the western states do not allow hunting or at least the main season during the mule deer rut..unfortunately, Montana is not one of those states...

Same holds true for elk..at least here in Montana, only bow season is open with the exception of a few areas during the rut for elk..Antelope, the rut here is long over when season starts...


(quote) Trophy hunting is the solution, not the problem.


Cooch--thank you for the excellent info---and agree totally, trophy hunting is NOT the problem..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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cooch
.300 member


Reged: 21/09/03
Posts: 192
Loc: Southern NSW
Re: the big 5 [Re: Ripp]
      #138600 - 07/07/09 01:45 PM

Ripp.


Copy-paste does not take much effort.

The local africans are amongst the biggest threat to carnivores.

A couple of dollar's worth of organo-phosphate pesticide rubbed over a fresh kill and there's another pride of lions that won't be bothering the local cattle anymore.

--------------------
"The only logical response to an animal that lives obsessed with avoiding capture is to chase it." - Jose Ortega y Gassett


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bwananelson
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Reged: 08/10/07
Posts: 1195
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Re: the big 5 [Re: cooch]
      #138616 - 07/07/09 10:26 PM

its the human parasite that endangers them,pets,space,these people are so poor they have to eat which drives an industry,civil unrest armies have to be fed.ivory is worth more than gold,intolerance to predators.we cant stop the drug flow here and i assume the rest of the world is the same so how is poaching going to be halted with all those hungry people.we are going to be the next species to be extinct the hunter....

--------------------
THERE ARE NO DO OVERS IN LIFE DONT LET A CHANCE AT A DREAM SLIP AWAY.


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Ripp
.577 member


Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: the big 5 [Re: cooch]
      #138632 - 08/07/09 04:20 AM

Quote:

Ripp.


The local africans are amongst the biggest threat to carnivores.

A couple of dollar's worth of organo-phosphate pesticide rubbed over a fresh kill and there's another pride of lions that won't be bothering the local cattle anymore.





Agree with your totally..all one has to do is look at Kenya as you stated...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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EricD
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Reged: 27/02/04
Posts: 4636
Re: the big 5 [Re: grandveneur]
      #138998 - 15/07/09 07:45 AM

Quote:

They have cellular phones and sometimes computers, and no trinking water!!!




I have found it surprising just how many city dwelling africans own cellphones. And that goes for basically all over the continent. The person might have rags for cloths, but they'll have a cellphone. However, in my experience, the cellphones are often non-functional, and just for show in order to look important, as the owner often can not afford the payments of actually using it...


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cooch
.300 member


Reged: 21/09/03
Posts: 192
Loc: Southern NSW
Re: the big 5 [Re: bwananelson]
      #139017 - 15/07/09 11:27 AM

Quote:

its the human parasite that endangers them,pets,space,these people are so poor they have to eat which drives an industry,civil unrest armies have to be fed.ivory is worth more than gold,intolerance to predators.we cant stop the drug flow here and i assume the rest of the world is the same so how is poaching going to be halted with all those hungry people.we are going to be the next species to be extinct the hunter....




Your post presents a philosophy which i consider misguided - to say the least. It is commonly espoused by those with little understanding of nature, humans, and the place of the latter in the former.

(1)Humans are not a parasite, any more than elephants are. Both are species which have a tendency to over-breed (if not subject to restraint) and have the ability to hugely modify their environment. Both are a PART of the ecosystem.

(2) It is not poverty that creates war, but the other way around. It is conflict that prevents people from planting crops, growing livestock, building reasonable housing and obtaining supplies and services.

(3) Ivory is not "worth more than gold" to the average village hunter-poacher. They get a very small percentage of its value, the rest of which goes to enriching the middlemen and the bribe-taking politicians. (A role frequently filled by the same people.)

(4) We have not stopped the flow of drugs, either in my country, or yours. On the other hand there have been HIGHLY SUCCESFUL programs that DO stop poachers. It's as simple as making it more profitable for the local landowners to conserve game than to kill it. "Profit" in this sense, is what puts food in hungry mouths, digs wells and funds clinics. We have already told you this.... please pay attention.

(5) It is being increasingly appreciated throughout the world that best practice wild-life management includes sustainable utilisation (Recognised by the UN and written into CITES)and that the highest-value form of wildlife utilisation is as a recreational hunting resource, there is a strong economic and environmental imperative to KEEP hunting.

(6) It is also recognised that in areas in which wildlife and feral species are an economic pest, one of the most cost-effective efficient and target-specific ways in which to manage these pests is through recreational hunting.

Bwananelson.
I understand that you may be undergoing a difficult period in your life. I am all too familiar with depression, and the way that it affects our thinking and outlook. However your viewpoint is wildly inaccurate and counter-factual.... not to mention unnecessarily negative.

I suggest that you do some research, rather than listening to those who neither appreciate nor support hunting.

Cheer up......... Peter

--------------------
"The only logical response to an animal that lives obsessed with avoiding capture is to chase it." - Jose Ortega y Gassett


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