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Hunting >> Hunting in Australia, NZ & the South Pacific

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gryphon
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Reged: 01/01/03
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Loc: Sambar ground/Victoria/Austral...
Camel shoot.
      #138375 - 03/07/09 06:41 AM

The Gov spends money that they shouldnt have to,why not spend 1/2 of that on setting up a "camel shooters" system of people that would pay to do it.

$19m for camel cull
July 3, 2009

THE Federal Government will spend $19 million to cull camels in northern and western Australia as part of a $400 million package of environmental grants.

The culling program will be undertaken by the Desert Knowledge Co-operative Research Centre and will require helicopters to shoot the animals in more remote parts of Central Australia.

Camels are regarded as one of Australia's worst feral pests and cause $14 million damage to infrastructure and a number of road deaths, through collisions, each year.

Camels also adversely affect native species by trampling habitats and blocking sparse watering holes in the desert.

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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
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Re: Camel shoot. [Re: gryphon]
      #138386 - 03/07/09 12:10 PM

I'm not kidding.

You guys need to get your military involved.

Seriously, heli practice on camels would be good stuff. After the first bangs the critters no doubt scatter and would make for excellent practice.

Humvees with turret mounted mg's would be good practice, too.

My best friend drove the Humvee and watched his Colonel toast a jackal in Iraq from a custom-mounted Bulgarian PKM {they hadn't gotten their M240's yet} while ripping along at about 100 kph and he still raves about the guy's performance.

You Aussies should do same. No joke.

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weedypigeon
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Reged: 26/03/08
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Loc: australia
Re: Camel shoot. [Re: 9.3x57]
      #138401 - 03/07/09 06:45 PM

gryphon :- Sounds like you saw the same TV footage I saw the other day.

There must be thousands of shooters out there willing to make a dent in the ferals in Australia, it seems property owners and governments are less than keen to let responsible shooters have access to where the majority of them are.
Government programs appear to be spectacularly unsuccessful if the numbers of deer and pigs are anything to go by.


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Matt_Graham
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Reged: 26/02/04
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Re: Camel shoot. [Re: weedypigeon]
      #139400 - 23/07/09 04:29 PM

Quote:

gryphon :- Sounds like you saw the same TV footage I saw the other day.

There must be thousands of shooters out there willing to make a dent in the ferals in Australia, it seems property owners and governments are less than keen to let responsible shooters have access to where the majority of them are.
Government programs appear to be spectacularly unsuccessful if the numbers of deer and pigs are anything to go by.


You got it in one... the psuedo departments and beurocrats (most of them) have no interest in allowing rec hunters to shoot camels.... even if they pay PAY for it. The need that multi M$ funding to keep it going around.

I have just about given up on the Central Desert people - have spent the last 2 years trying to get something happening with the camels.... and they just dont want to have a part of rec hunters. The would rather blow money on stupid projects and helicopter time - than take my money...

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gryphon
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Re: Camel shoot. [Re: Matt_Graham]
      #139407 - 23/07/09 07:08 PM

Not YOUR money Mr Graham your CLIENTS money ...surely you wouldnt waste the time in shooting a ferkin camel would you?

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kamilaroi
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Reged: 18/12/04
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Re: Camel shoot. [Re: Matt_Graham]
      #139410 - 23/07/09 08:09 PM

Quote:

Quote:

gryphon :- Sounds like you saw the same TV footage I saw the other day.

There must be thousands of shooters out there willing to make a dent in the ferals in Australia, it seems property owners and governments are less than keen to let responsible shooters have access to where the majority of them are.
Government programs appear to be spectacularly unsuccessful if the numbers of deer and pigs are anything to go by.


You got it in one... the psuedo departments and beurocrats (most of them) have no interest in allowing rec hunters to shoot camels.... even if they pay PAY for it. The need that multi M$ funding to keep it going around.

I have just about given up on the Central Desert people - have spent the last 2 years trying to get something happening with the camels.... and they just dont want to have a part of rec hunters. The would rather blow money on stupid projects and helicopter time - than take my money...





Dunno mate,

Depends who you talk to in NPY Council (and how you put the proposal)

Maybe it takes time to build lasting relationships rather than "blow in, blow out" (incl bureaucrats and missionaries for the past WTF decades) that many communities are accustomed to. My ha'penny's worth.


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9.3x57
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Re: Camel shoot. [Re: kamilaroi]
      #139417 - 23/07/09 10:59 PM

What is the status now?

Meaning, are these animals on private or public land?

If on private, can they be shot at will by the landowner?

If on public land, can they be shot by individuals now?

What IS the camel in Oz now; game animal, feral pest, what, legally-speaking?

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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Matt_Graham
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Reged: 26/02/04
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Re: Camel shoot. [Re: gryphon]
      #139433 - 24/07/09 08:35 AM

Quote:

Not YOUR money Mr Graham your CLIENTS money ...surely you wouldnt waste the time in shooting a ferkin camel would you?


Sorry Mr Gryphon - my clients money. But it is my money that puts in the infrastructure...

--------------------
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Matt_Graham
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Re: Camel shoot. [Re: 9.3x57]
      #139435 - 24/07/09 08:44 AM

Quote:

What is the status now?

Meaning, are these animals on private or public land?

If on private, can they be shot at will by the landowner?

If on public land, can they be shot by individuals now?

What IS the camel in Oz now; game animal, feral pest, what, legally-speaking?


Status varies from state-to-state and different for different land tenure. In Australia whatever (unbranded non-native) animals on 'your' land are your responsibility and your own to do what you like with. You can make money from them but if their numbers become too high the govt may step in and force you to reduce their numbers. In the extreme the govt will come and do this and send you the bill.

A great deal of the camels are on aboriginal owned land. That is a special kind of tenure - mostly not freehold but not public or crown lease either. The owners can make money from the land just like freehold and leasehold but the crown can also step-in and do certain things, like control feral animals. There is some conjecture with regard this law as it is covered by both state and fed laws (somewhat conflicting too) and this is still the subject of ongoing legal action.

Kamilaroi - the problem with us and the Central Desert people has more to do with cultural issues. They do not want to see camels laying dead on their land but they are OK for someone to catch them and slaughter them elsewhere. Somehow however the govt departments seem to convince them that it is OK to shoot them from helicopters.... no doubt the hold things over them when they object. "Let us shoot them or you dont get your new houses" type stuff.

You may be right too about getting to know people better.

--------------------
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kamilaroi
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Reged: 18/12/04
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Re: Camel shoot. [Re: Matt_Graham]
      #139437 - 24/07/09 09:02 AM

Yeah mate,

I know how the bureaucrats work (used to be one). It's abt "if you don't then we may need to....." if you get my drift and here the greenies are a real pain (urban votes and lotsa cash). In reality they're stuck in a neo colonial mindset "teaching the natives etc". (and then there's community politics)

This holds true specially in far north QLD (Cape York) where the local mobs (Kuku Yalaendji, Yidinji etc) wanted to continue cattle grazing over what greenies renamed "Wild Rivers" area and blackmailed the State to declare it a National Park. Cape York Lands Council (Pearsons etc) went feral as it is subject to a recognised (and undisputed) Federal Native Title claim but still the Feds won't move to slap down the urban greens as they hold the key to the next QLD election and Labour govt is on the nose.


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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
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Re: Camel shoot. [Re: kamilaroi]
      #139442 - 24/07/09 10:47 AM

Matt:

I have an aquaintance who found the whole camel-shooting enterprise to be worthy of a second trip over there, enough so that he made it sound pretty darn interesting to me, too.

Since lots of your big critters over there are imports, I don't see why some would have noble status and others not, but then I'm an outsider and don't know the details. A lot of it sounds interesting to me. Sambar, the buff, brumbies even! All has a niche in the sport hunting world IMO.

Anyway, IMO it is a shame some enterprising types are not being allowed to sell hunts and buy the beer and pretzels for their families. Well, you know what I mean...

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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Matt_Graham
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Reged: 26/02/04
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Re: Camel shoot. [Re: 9.3x57]
      #139445 - 24/07/09 11:21 AM

Quote:

Matt:

I have an aquaintance who found the whole camel-shooting enterprise to be worthy of a second trip over there, enough so that he made it sound pretty darn interesting to me, too.

Since lots of your big critters over there are imports, I don't see why some would have noble status and others not, but then I'm an outsider and don't know the details. A lot of it sounds interesting to me. Sambar, the buff, brumbies even! All has a niche in the sport hunting world IMO.

Anyway, IMO it is a shame some enterprising types are not being allowed to sell hunts and buy the beer and pretzels for their families. Well, you know what I mean...


Yes mate... all true, they all (or most) have a place. Sometime in the future we will all be wondering why anyone would want to waste 300,000 camels out of the widow of a helicopter!

I am biased though... I have a vested interest... but regardless, I do see things a little differently to most Australian hunters/shooters.

--------------------
www.huntaust.com.au

Edited by Matt_Graham (24/07/09 11:22 AM)


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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: Camel shoot. [Re: gryphon]
      #139454 - 24/07/09 03:03 PM

Quote:

Not YOUR money Mr Graham your CLIENTS money ...surely you wouldnt waste the time in shooting a ferkin camel would you?




Gryph, give it a rest, hey. Of course Matt is an outfitter and looking to provide his clients with hunting.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Camel shoot. [Re: Matt_Graham]
      #139455 - 24/07/09 03:10 PM

Australia is I believe the only place where the camels are wild and free range. Everywhere else they are regarded as domestic stock.

In reality we should be farming them and shooting them for human consumption. Camel meat is quite nice to eat. The thing holding back hunting for human consumption is probably cost of doing it in very remote areas, and the usual crap about killing and butchering standards that infests our cotton wool modern world.

In the meantime hunting camels for trophies, sport, or culls seems to be the go

Shooting them from gov't paid helicopters seems to be a massive waste of taxpayers money when alternatives DO EXIST. But we also currently have a gov't bragging about wasting massive amounts of taxpayers money, which will take a generation to pay off, so what's the difference?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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kamilaroi
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Reged: 18/12/04
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Re: Camel shoot. [Re: NitroX]
      #139458 - 24/07/09 04:24 PM

I'm reminded of the punchline "well you don't want to get an ugly one, do you?"

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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
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Re: Camel shoot. [Re: NitroX]
      #139469 - 24/07/09 11:08 PM

Right on, nitro.

300,000 camels.

Regardless of WHERE they are {logistics aside, that is}, THAT is a very significant natural resource.

I personally support all efforts to make productive, private-sector use of such a resource for the benefit of those willing to make use of it. Seems ridiculously simplistic, but tho the logistics aren't, the solution in the biggest sense seems to be.

One feature of Modernity that infuriates me is the growing insistence on ignoring, downplaying or outright, energetically decrying the commercial use of natural resources. We see it here ALL THE TIME {logging, mining ag county, under attack continuously from the outside}. It is a characteristic of the so-called "Green Movement".

Just last night my son reported to me that the mother of one of the fellows on his Forest Service Fire Crew came up from California to the bunkhouse to visit {...doesn't lack courage, does she...} and my son happened to mention that he worked for some years during high school summers at the garnet mine. Her immediate rsponse was "Oh, dear, shouldn't they be left in the ground???? Why, if you mine it, it will be gone!!"

He swallowed his instinctive "You are a moron" that was begging to be let loose.

A few minutes later, literally, literally, she was chatting about what she intened to do with the rest of her vacation, and she told one of the other fellows that she wanted to go to the public garnet digging area to collect some for herself.

No, no, NO!

DON'T by all means allow someone to benefit by a past mistake!! NO! Don't let anyone feed their kids and encourage a business. Why, that would be stupid! Idiotic even. 300,000 camels??? Why, who could think of such a thing! Such creatures shouldn't be used for a productive purpose, no, let the GOVERNMENT GOBBLE UP TAXPAYER DOLLARS MOWING THEM DOWN {and probably f___-ing up the deal along the way...}!

Yes, there is the solution!

Say with me now, over and over and over and over; "GOVERNMENT...THE CAUSE OF AND SOLUTION TO ALL OF LIFE'S PROBLEMS..."

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Reged: 24/03/04
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Re: Camel shoot. [Re: 9.3x57]
      #139471 - 25/07/09 12:28 AM

In western Australia they are considered feral vermin .
Meaning they are a declared pest.
300,000 is not even close to the number roaming wild in Aussie.
I've seen mobs of 80-100 to the east of Kalgoorlie.

Al

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949


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Matt_Graham
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Reged: 26/02/04
Posts: 602
Loc: Australia
Re: Camel shoot. [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #139472 - 25/07/09 01:22 AM

Quote:

In western Australia they are considered feral vermin .
Meaning they are a declared pest.
300,000 is not even close to the number roaming wild in Aussie.
I've seen mobs of 80-100 to the east of Kalgoorlie.

Al


Do you know where it actually says that Alan? Just curious to get it for a project I am working on.

Like most introduced species in Australia - it depends on the situation and who you are talking to.

MG

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
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Re: Camel shoot. [Re: Matt_Graham]
      #139473 - 25/07/09 03:39 AM


TODAY'S PAPER

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25832153-601,00.html


Ready to make a killing in $1bn camel market

IN the Simpson, Gibson and Tanami deserts, more than a million camels are roaming wild across three million square kilometres, and their numbers are expected to double with each coming decade.

They are the enemy of conservationists and threaten to overrun several of the nation's most remote Aboriginal communities.

But as plans gather pace for a mass camel cull, there are those who spy a burgeoning commercial opportunity.

"The way I see it, there is a billion dollars in camel meat wandering around the central desert," says Harvey Douglas, who owns a mobile abattoir and wants to kick-start a remote-based industry he says would provide up to 400 jobs a year, mostly to indigenous people.

"The federal government has just spent $600million on an intervention in the Northern Territory, and the only jobs that have been created are public service ones."

Environment Minister Peter Garrett this month committed $19m towards the most significant effort to control camel numbers since the animals were introduced to Australia in the 19th century.

"In a nutshell, we're faced with a crisis at the moment," says Glenn Edwards, the public servant in the Territory's Environment Department in charge of camel management.

"The camel numbers and impacts have crept up on us.

"There needs to be massive intervention and it needs to happen relatively quickly to bring the situation in hand."

Experts say the rising camel population has the potential to wipe out parts of Australia's unique desert ecosystem.

Dr Edwards has set governments an ambitious goal: the camel population must be brought down to one camel for every 10sqkm. "This keeps the damage they do within reasonable limits," he says.

Mr Douglas is one in a long list of entrepreneurs who have dreamed of harnessing feral camels and using them as a resource. A recent report by the Alice Springs-based Desert Knowledge Co-operative Resource Centre -- Dr Edwards was the report's chief author -- provides a list of camel harvesting ventures that have failed.

Camels have existed in large numbers throughout the desert for decades, and yet Australia's camel meat industry is very small. There are many who ask the question: if the potential for a profitable camel meat industry is there, why has no one capitalised from it already?

"Currently there's a real problem in terms of the industry itself in that there's not much happening," Dr Edwards says. "But with all this talk now about the urgency and need to actually address the camel numbers, I guess that has catalysed a lot of people's thinking. People are starting to come out of the woodwork. It would be great to see some camels being used, as long as that fits in with the overall goal of managing the impact of camels."

Mr Douglas says the federal government's $19m package to control camel numbers could be the catalyst for an enterprise creating employment in the desert while contributing to Australia's international aid efforts.

The biggest barrier to kick-starting a camel meat industry is the willingness of Aboriginal organisations such as the Central Land Council to allow access to Aboriginal land, he says.

"The world has a need for low-cost protein," Mr Douglas says. "There's a huge requirement out there. We give Afghanistan $88m a year in aid money; the government has just promised $20m for camel control.

"Let's put the $20m into processing meat, and let's take some of the aid money and put it into buying meat. Problem solved -- you've got your environmental benefit, you're employing people and you've supplied meat for aid programs in Afghanistan.

"And it hasn't cost the Australian government one single cent."

Under current plans for mass aerial culling, camels would be shot and their carcasses left to rot. Kym Schwartzkopff, senior wildlife officer with the NT Environment Department, also works as an aerial shooter and agrees this would be a waste.

But he is not convinced Mr Douglas's plan to harness camels as a resource is feasible. "The only trouble is the ability of the abattoir to keep up with the shooters as they go," he said.

"To actually get vehicles out to where we were shooting would be next to impossible."


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gryphon
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Reged: 01/01/03
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Re: Camel shoot. [Re: 500Nitro]
      #139476 - 25/07/09 04:35 AM

"To actually get vehicles out to where we were shooting would be next to impossible."

maybe they should check with NZ and find out how effective the choppers were over there.

The quote was from an aerial shooter himself in the article.

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Matt_Graham
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Reged: 26/02/04
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Re: Camel shoot. [Re: gryphon]
      #139485 - 25/07/09 09:13 AM

Quote:

"To actually get vehicles out to where we were shooting would be next to impossible."

maybe they should check with NZ and find out how effective the choppers were over there.

The quote was from an aerial shooter himself in the article.


Different situation with the camels and choppers than in NZ. I dont think it would be cost effective or even logistically possible to transfer them by chopper here because of their size and distances required.

At least they are starting to talk sensibly... funny though - 2 years ago it was 300,000, last year the number was 500,000 ...now it is one million. Funny figures?? I wonder if these money-chasing (funding) beaurocrats can fathom what one million camels looks like???

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Sarg
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Re: Camel shoot. [Re: Matt_Graham]
      #139490 - 25/07/09 10:54 AM

Hi Matt , I was told the 500,000 was the number that they wanted to Cull !
Not the Camel over all numbers !

If you made dams (or some type of water supply) ahead of the portable meat works , to draw numbers into accessible areas that vehicles could get to , I worked in shooting & retrieval of Buffalo on the plains in the old days , worked well , need a bigger truck for Camel as these can be huge & very heavy !

A Semi load of huge water tanks with troughs added at each spot a month or more a head may do it ?

Choppers would only be good for scouting ahead to look for animals , like on Tuna boats !

very few machines could lift a Bull , other than logging numbers , which cost thousands a hour to run !

Not many locals would work on this I believe !


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Camel shoot. [Re: 500Nitro]
      #139492 - 25/07/09 11:23 AM

Quote:


The biggest barrier to kick-starting a camel meat industry is the willingness of Aboriginal organisations such as the Central Land Council to allow access to Aboriginal land, he says.




Well what a RACIST world we live in. One rule for us, one rule for them. If the lands were owned by white pastoralists there would be no problem. They would be ORDERED to clean up the pests or ORDERED to allow the pest destruction crews access. Simple answer for Aboriginal lands as well.


Quote:

... funny though - 2 years ago it was 300,000, last year the number was 500,000 ...now it is one million. Funny figures??




Escalation of BS numbers is a common feature of the modern no standards media. just wait for the next disaster and how death numbers often accelerate each day with no new facts actually received. Modern media loves to make things up even if facts are readily available. Its too hard for the "average" journalist today to actually do some research.

I have no idea what the actual numbers are, but am always distrustful of "accelerating numbers" with each new article.


--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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kamilaroi
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Reged: 18/12/04
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Re: Camel shoot. [Re: NitroX]
      #139516 - 25/07/09 03:49 PM

Is there an agenda here?
It's their backyard mate. TOs have a general unwillingness to get shafted by YET ANOTHER do-gooder bureaucrat or carpetbagger with a quick solution (to their own advantage). Given the history and potential for destruction of cultural sites no wonder they're bloody suspicious.
Anyway read the proposal by the regional traditional knowledge centre for culling (and no I don't have the link!)


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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Reged: 24/03/04
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Re: Camel shoot. [Re: Matt_Graham]
      #139703 - 28/07/09 11:28 PM

http://www.agric.wa.gov.au/objtwr/imported_assets/content/pw/vp/declared_animals.pdf

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949


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