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gryphon
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Reged: 01/01/03
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Loc: Sambar ground/Victoria/Austral...
no more pet lions,hooray!
      #137473 - 18/06/09 05:33 AM

Africa : South Africa: Uncertain future for thousands of animals
on 2009/6/16 11:47:58

"Canned" lion hunting - the commercial shooting of captive-bred lions for trophies - appears to have been finally canned itself by a Bloemfontein High Court decision.

While last week's decision has been welcomed, questions are being raised as to what will happen to the 4 000 captive-bred lions in South Africa which have now lost their trophy value for commercial hunting, which was anything between $22 000 and $60 000 an animal.

The court action was brought in May, 2007, by the South African Predator Breeders Association and two breeders, Matthys Christiaan Mostert and Deon Cilliers. The three parties sought to overturn legislation promulgated by the former minister of environment affairs and tourism, designed to end "canned" hunting of large predators.

The legislation said captive-bred lions must be allowed to run free and fend for themselves "in an extensive wildlife system" for at least 24 months before they could be shot. This was an attempt to introduce the practice of "fair chase" into hunting captive-bred animals, which were raised to be totally dependent on humans, and to allow the animals a reasonable chance of escape. Some had been hunted in enclosures where this was not possible.

The Breeders Association, Mostert and Cilliers sought to overturn this legislation. They also asked the court to set aside the legislation which makes the future breeding of lions for canned hunts illegal.

They argued that the laws would have a big economic impact on the captive-bred lion industry, particularly in the Free State and North West. They said having to allow the animals to run free for two years would destroy the industry.

However, the court found that this claim could be refuted. The application was dismissed with costs.

The head of the Endangered Wildlife Trust, Yolan Friedman, has applauded the decision which she said would effectively put an end to canned lion hunting in South Africa.

"We believe that the principles of ethical, humane treatment of all species should never be compromised for the economic enrichment of a few, as has been the case with canned lion hunting in South Africa," she said.

She welcomed the court's finding that economic considerations could never be used to condone or ignore practices that either compromised the country's biodiversity, undermined the humane treatment of hunted animals, or tainted the hunting industry's reputation.

Friedman urged the government to begin a process immediately to avert "a welfare crisis" in which the country's existing 4 000 captive-bred lions could "fall prey to neglect and cruel treatment" now that they had lost their economic value.

"To these animals, whose lives so far have been nothing more than a caged existence to provide a trophy to an unethical hunter, their future remains uncertain," she said.


http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=31&art_id=vn20090615050312491C492605

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gatsby
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Re: no more pet lions,hooray! [Re: gryphon]
      #137475 - 18/06/09 06:00 AM

I don't see what has been saved here. This was a kind of ranching kill it yourself operation and now the crop has been made illegal. The losers will be the ranchers who have invested in their animals. Eventhough it is not something I would be interested in participating in, I chalk this up as a victory for the anti hunting crowd.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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BOWHUNR
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Reged: 25/01/03
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Re: no more pet lions,hooray! [Re: gatsby]
      #137477 - 18/06/09 06:10 AM

Quote:

Even though it is not something I would be interested in participating in, I chalk this up as a victory for the anti hunting crowd.



I agree 100%. Whats next? Gemsbuck, blesbuck, etc?? Lions weren't the only game ranched in SA.

Mike

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crkennedy1
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Reged: 05/12/08
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Re: no more pet lions,hooray! [Re: gatsby]
      #137478 - 18/06/09 06:25 AM

This is a very interesting dialectic. It's easy to understand the unsporting nature of a "canned" hunt - that's a no brainer for anybody with even minimal scruples. Yet, gatsby makes a legitimate point, in reality this decision turns into a victory for the anit-hunting crowd. I wonder if such consessions were to exist in other parts of the world, if some species would not currently be in danger of becoming extinct, like tigers in India? In reality, all the anti hunting crowd will ultimately do is succeed in driving many majestic species to extinction once they become economically unfeasible.

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
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Re: no more pet lions,hooray! [Re: crkennedy1]
      #137480 - 18/06/09 06:56 AM


I tend to agree that it could be a win for the anti's.

The other thing is, it might send the whole thing "underground" where the "hunting" (cough, splutter !!!)
is still done but unpublished and so even less control's
are in place.

Anyway, why anyone could class it as a Trophy, god knows.

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9.3x57
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Re: no more pet lions,hooray! [Re: 500Nitro]
      #137481 - 18/06/09 07:32 AM

I find the shooting of these critters absurd, but as I've said in the past, I have no interest in banning such activity tho I myself think the whole activity is preposterous.

I do not think that everything I "don't like" is wrong and should be banned. I do not particularly "like" modern, industrial poultry-raising, but I don't think it should be banned. Much stock-raising is a little rough, but so what. I have no problem with regulations/laws against cruelty, but a short life followed by a bullet is a way better proposition IMO than the life a dairy cow lives.

As for this lion thing, what a stupid law.

A question: I wonder how many surplus lions are actually sold BY these canned outfits to "legitimate" buyers and kept longterm on big ranches and/or national parks, etc. I wonder what will happen to the total lion population {and gene pool} after this law forces the doors closed on these fellows. I don't know the answer, but wonder if that occurs.

IMO, change in this area is best left to the private sector; let hunter's groups ostracize and belittle the canned lion shooters into extinction, but keep the government out of it, and if hunter's groups don't care about the activity, so be it. This law has the makings of a lot of mayhem in it IMO.

I am sick of governments always having to stick their noses in everybody's business...



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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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shakari
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Re: no more pet lions,hooray! [Re: 9.3x57]
      #137487 - 18/06/09 04:49 PM

Guys,

I hope no-one will be offended when I say some of you are a bit misinformed on this.

Firstly, there's a big difference between antelope that breed and live their lives in a very large fenced area that's used for hunting and Lions that are bred and raised in small pens simply for the purpose of having someone (often misled into thinking they're shooting a wild Lion) shoot them. Remember also, these Lions are frequently drugged before release to make 'em less dangerous and easier to find.

Secondy, they make no contribution whatsoever to the gene pool, because they're kept in pens and away from other Lion populations, so can't spread their genes.

Thirdly, none or virtually none of these animals are sold for translocation into national parks etc as those parks that do have them usually have a surplus of them and even if they didn't, the release of 'strangers' into such areas would cause an awful lot of problems with the pride dynamics of the existing populations and almost certainly cause the death of more Lions than were added to the population by their release.

Those fenced private areas that were mentioned, don't want Lions, because they eat all the PG populations which the landowner would then need to replace by buying more........... therefore, simple economics mean Lions aren't wanted. On top of that, you also have the added issues of keeping staff etc from being eaten.......

Next up is the moral and ethical question of this. It goes without saying that it's immoral and unethical, and (IMO) if we don't put a stop to the practice ourselves, the antis will come along and put a stop to it for us. They probably won't stop there though. They'll either try to ban all hunting in South Africa at the very least....... and possibly elsewhere as well, or they'll try to stop all Lion hunting throughout Africa. I actually regard the canned Lion issue to be the biggest threat to Africa sport hunting in existance.

Most people don't realise quite what a nasty business canned Lion hunting is and nor do they have an inkling of how far it spreads........ Believe me, the vast majority of Lions (almost all) shot in SA and some shot elsewhere are either canned or partly canned and most of the people who have shot them have been misled into thinking they were shooting a wild Lion. We've even seen reports on the forums where guys have reported Lions running towards their vehicles where they've then shot them....... the reason they run to the vehicle, is because they think they're gonna get fed! ....... situations like that are almost laughable.

I'm extremely glad this disgusting practice has been banned (although I don't believe we've heard the last of it just yet) and I know that the vast majority of the ethical hunting industry feel the same way. My only regret is that it was allowed to start in the first place.

I have to admit I loath this practice and it's purveyors with a vengance, and as far as I'm concerned, I have no more pity for the breeders than I'd have for a pimp who had been nicked for peddling his trollops.

We actually have a couple of articles on our other hunting site on this........ one of which gives the absolute skinny on how it happens and how to spot you're being screwed, but I can't copy it in here because we've had to disable the right click function on the site to stop people stealing our material. If anyone's interested, just send me an e-mail etc.

Hope that clears up a few misconceptions.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



Edited by shakari (18/06/09 09:48 PM)

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9.3x57
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Re: no more pet lions,hooray! [Re: shakari]
      #137500 - 18/06/09 10:46 PM

Quote:

Next up is the moral and ethical question of this. It goes without saying that it's immoral and unethical, and (IMO) if we don't put a stop to the practice ourselves, the antis will come along and put a stop to it for us. They probably won't stop there though. They'll either try to ban all hunting in South Africa at the very least....... and possibly elsewhere as well, or they'll try to stop all Lion hunting throughout Africa. I actually regard the canned Lion issue to be the biggest threat to Africa sport hunting in existance.

No offense taken by me and THANKS for the info re; breeding, etc. My point is what you state here. When we do not or cannot police this sort of stuff ourselves {hunters}, gubmnt gets involved and that always seems to bode ill for all...

Problem is, I still think this decision is dangerous for all hunting in SA.

Sometimes we can't see the forest for the trees. I seriously wonder if as hunters we see that way on the game ranching industry. Regardless how long animals are left to live on fenced game farms, such operations are farms and non-hunters I've spoken to {read, non-hunting General Public} frequently see such operations as totally unsporting, unethical and ridiculous in their own right. Not meaning to step on toes here at all, just playing "devil's advocate" as so often it is the General Public that winds up making decisions for the rest of us, and their decisions are guided by, all-too-often, anti-hunting organizations who command the airwaves. I have hunted in Africa on unfenced land and on a ranch of 5,000 acres and am familiar with quite a number or game ranches. Without being too critical, I can say that I understand why some might see fenced ranches of this or similar size to be only a step away from canned cat hunting. HUNTERS might not see it that way, but others do. My own opinion is that a person need only hunt in wide open, unfenced areas like here in Idaho or in Africa and they may be able to see the sentiment.

As for trophy legitimacy, I've always supported the division between unfenced and fenced hunting. Some might squeal, but fences make a big difference IMO...

I support game ranch hunting. But I consider it an agricultural activity. I do not consider it the equal of hunting here, say, for elk in north Idaho, or of open ground hunting elsewhere in Africa. In fact, I think it is a bit laughable to compare "adequately enclosed" g/r hunting in South Africa to any hunting here in north Idaho. The challenges here are exponentially greater and a trophy taken here is, IMO, indicative of a completely different level of effort and skill. Obviously, size of ranch makes a difference, but even on a fenced ranch of say, 10,000 acres, the herds are contained, cannot escape hunting pressure, etc, and that alone changes things. I do not mean to beat up on game ranch hunting as I support it 100%, just trying to say that many outside the hunting world see no difference between canned lion hunting and fenced game hunting of any kind and if we look at it, I think we have to agree that fences make some difference, and the mere addition of fences might be the "hole in the fence" that might let the anti-hunters IN. I have to wonder if this decision is going to be used to hurt the g/r industry.

Anti's do not care about game numbers, genetic pool, etc. Here we fight daily the attempts by some to force "wildlands" and "wilderness" legislation down our throats, legislation that if successful would seriously hurt game numbers and wreck the many years of successful management of State and hunting public. They will use any opportunity to gain control over land, especially using the uninformed masses, and I hope this decision is not one more arrow in their quiver. I DO see differences between canned cat killing and the game ranch industry, but the vague similarity that exists...the fence...combined with a court's meddling, might make mayhem for hunting.

I have to admit I loath this practice and it's purveyors with a vengance, and as far as I'm concerned, I have no more pity for the breeders than I'd have for a pimp who had been nicked for peddling his trollops.

Great analogy. If all hunters felt the same way about them, the canned cat killers would have been run out of business and a court case never would have seen the light of day.
Your info on the size and scope of canned lion shooting is distressing, but indicates that MANY must like it just fine. All I can say is, WOW...



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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

Edited by 9.3x57 (18/06/09 11:17 PM)

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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
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Re: no more pet lions,hooray! [Re: 9.3x57]
      #137504 - 18/06/09 11:15 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I have to admit I loath this practice and it's purveyors with a vengance, and as far as I'm concerned, I have no more pity for the breeders than I'd have for a pimp who had been nicked for peddling his trollops.

Great analogy. If all hunters felt the same way about them, the canned cat killers would have been run out of business and a court case never would have seen the light of day.






I too, think canned hunting is repulsive..and NOT HUNTING, period...BUT, playing devil’s advocate here, was told once that the canned lion hunting actually helped the species from the standpoint it took lots of pressure off of the "real" lion hunting in areas lion Zimbabwe, Tanzania, Botswana, etc...was actually told that by a booking agent so he has a horse in that race as well..but wanted to share "his" viewpoint...

Also agree with the viewpoint, the anti's are coming to stop any and all lion hunting along with hunting in general..I do view this as a win of sorts for them...

Ripp

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9.3x57
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Re: no more pet lions,hooray! [Re: Ripp]
      #137507 - 18/06/09 11:37 PM

Shakari:

Where do the canned lion killers get their stock? Are they all bred on-site, or are they obtained from other sources?

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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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shakari
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Re: no more pet lions,hooray! [Re: 9.3x57]
      #137508 - 18/06/09 11:50 PM

Ripp,

Taking the pressure off the wild Lion population is a common argument but I just can't see it I'm afraid. I don't see how one has anything to do with the other. The countries that offer wild Lion hunting all have quotas that ensure those populations are not over hunted.

9.3x57

I've never been involved in the industry but I believe they breed them and on occasion swap blood lines etc.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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Paul
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Re: no more pet lions,hooray! [Re: 9.3x57]
      #137509 - 18/06/09 11:50 PM

The question that sticks in my mind is: How will it all end?

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Woodlea
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Reged: 27/07/08
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Loc: NSW Australia
Re: no more pet lions,hooray! [Re: 9.3x57]
      #137510 - 18/06/09 11:54 PM

"Next up is the moral and ethical question of this. It goes without saying that it's immoral and unethical, and (IMO) if we don't put a stop to the practice ourselves, the antis will come along and put a stop to it for us. They probably won't stop there though. They'll either try to ban all hunting in South Africa at the very least....... and possibly elsewhere as well, or they'll try to stop all Lion hunting throughout Africa. I actually regard the canned Lion issue to be the biggest threat to Africa sport hunting in existance."

The Antis will still want to ban all hunting, they will just think they have had a win with this and will move onto their next target. They are like the anti crowd in Australia. Some gun owners said they dont need semi-autos so we lost them. The antis then moved onto their next target.

I would oppose the antis just to keep them busy. They will not be happy with this and wont be happy until all hunting is banned.

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bwananelson
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Re: no more pet lions,hooray! [Re: Woodlea]
      #137530 - 19/06/09 03:23 AM

and pheasant out of high houses.pheasant preserves,elk preserves.the multitude of high fence deer preservers.its the lazy hunter who must be stopped.the cat that isbayed in a tree for dys till the client gets there.you are on thr right path but stop the lazy hunter

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gatsby
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Re: no more pet lions,hooray! [Re: bwananelson]
      #137537 - 19/06/09 05:33 AM

As more and more hunting takes place on private land the difference between canned and open range public lands type hunting becomes blurred. How about the rancher who raises buffalo or provides addition feed, water and habitat for the native species on his land or brings in exotics? Is there a difference between fencing in game or enticing them in with year round food plots and guzzlers? I am not willing to point my finger and say "Do it my way!"

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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gryphon
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Re: no more pet lions,hooray! [Re: gatsby]
      #137539 - 19/06/09 06:18 AM

Shakari...you are right there in the game and right on the money with your post mate!

I believe these sort of shite practices GIVE ammo to the anti`s...hunting is hunting ,period!

Shooting the king of beasts in a pen,cage whatever is and never will be accredited with the word "hunting"

I remember (if rightly ) 60 minutes Australia showing a ######## shooting a lioness through the wire from the outside of the cage as a trophy...whaaaat! What made it worse was the lioness came up and rubbed the wire with her shoulders in a greeting ffs!
It make me so angry that these people can do it in the name of 'getting a lion for my wall'

This and other practices are the the bags of ammo that feed the greens and even though I am so far from being green that I`m nearly purple I agree with them on this one.

I say to those that want a lion get out there in the wild and take one if you are fair dinkum.

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Ripp
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Re: no more pet lions,hooray! [Re: gryphon]
      #137557 - 19/06/09 11:43 AM

Quote:

It make me so angry that these people can do it in the name of 'getting a lion for my wall'





But its all in the name of being the "Great Hunter".. --plus bragging rights at the local clubs, office party, whatever...agree, this is NOT hunting, even a little bit..but each to their own...

Went on a hunt like this once..early in my African hunting career, left on the second day as it was not for me...IMHO, this is shooting, but sure as hell not hunting...

Ripp

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Paul
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Re: no more pet lions,hooray! [Re: Ripp]
      #137567 - 19/06/09 03:45 PM


The 4000 lions should be let loose ASAP, preferably not all in the same place (ha ha).

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gryphon
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Re: no more pet lions,hooray! [Re: Paul]
      #137568 - 19/06/09 04:00 PM

I personally know and have seen the full mounts of lions that were yarded into their cages at a now defunct Lion Park.. a tourist drive-through venture that was on the outskirts of a major Aus city.

They were shot through the wire and as above were full mounted....hmmmmm that dosent carry much weight in the bragging rights field either.

Bloody amazes me how people can do it in the name of 'sportmanship" but they do and those operators running the pens in RSA arent much different really.

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tophet1
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Re: no more pet lions,hooray! [Re: gryphon]
      #137579 - 19/06/09 07:18 PM

What's the difference with shooting a Lion and a milk cow in a Kraal ? One creates an emotive response and the other doesn't.

There is no doubt that the practises used to 'shoot' lions in South Africa is reprehensible. Many are happy to pay to do it and where there is demand there is supply. This does not only apply to Lions in South Africa but hunting in general.

I am led to beleive that this requirement to have lions 'free' for two years prior to elimination has been in the pipe line for quite some time and smart 'suppliers' are already 'on-line'. All this legislation/regulation does is prevent those who do not comply, from exporting their 'trophys'.

It's all about exporting the trophies. Without that option the industry will collapse or contract or go elsewhere.

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Matt_Graham
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Re: no more pet lions,hooray! [Re: tophet1]
      #139401 - 23/07/09 05:04 PM

Dont fall into the traps set by the grrenies....

They would have you believe that all of the lions in SAfrica are shot tiny cages...

Why didnt they just put a minimum size on the enclosure??

So now the captive bred lions will have to be released into larger areas so they can live happy lives for two years, before the mean hunter comes to kill them. What is the difference except for allowing the greenies and some hunters sleep better at night.

Will it make you feel OK about the hunt??

The 'antis' use stepping stones and this is surely one of their stepping stones.

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www.huntaust.com.au

Edited by Matt_Graham (23/07/09 05:05 PM)

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gryphon
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Re: no more pet lions,hooray! [Re: Matt_Graham]
      #139406 - 23/07/09 07:07 PM

why not ban all that lion pen crap and there will be no stepping stones..

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cooch
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Re: no more pet lions,hooray! [Re: gryphon]
      #139414 - 23/07/09 10:24 PM

Gryph.

You're not thinking clearly.

EVERY additional restriction on hunting is a stepping-stone as far as the antis are concerned. You're just advocating giving them a whole stone-quarry in one hit.

Nobody has bothered to argue for a decent dividing line between "canned" and "wild" that is based on anything other than emotions.

Some hunters are lazy?
So what?

I hunted 20 years (on and off) before I got my first Sambar. I know people who shot one on their first walk into the bush. Are we to argue that they are "lazy", or that they should not be permitted to fire a shot on their first five hunts?

All.......
Let's be really clear about what is a valid criteria for objecting to something, and what is not.

It is no more "cruel" to shoot a penned lion than a wild one. Especially as the wild one has more chance of escaping, wounded.

A really "lazy" hunter is the bloke who buys his meat in the form of snags from the supermarket, AND YOU ALL HAVE!

I stand by the right of people to farm livestock and sell it in the most profitable way - as long as it does not involve unreasonable suffering.

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"The only logical response to an animal that lives obsessed with avoiding capture is to chase it." - Jose Ortega y Gassett

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Plains99
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Re: no more pet lions,hooray! [Re: cooch]
      #139419 - 24/07/09 12:37 AM

I have read this topic with interest and can certainly see both sides of the argument. I have some questions.
If there is a no feeding regulation this is going to limit commercial lion hunting to extremely large outfits that can afford to have lions running about munching on valuable livestock for two years. Won't that drive the cost of a canned lion hunt into the stratosphere? So for all practical purposes, all lion hunting on private land in South Africa has been outlawed? Or am I missing something?
Can these captive bred lions fend for themselves? Or are they dumped in separate fenced off areas where they can munch on an inexpensive goat herd (why would I want them eating my commercially valuable wild livestock if I was a grower?). If this is the case, what is the difference? If these lions are allowed to live on goats and scrap livestock (canner milk cows and such just turned out for the lions to attack) for a couple of years in private acres without being disturbed, how would that be any different than what was done before? Won't these lions still be very vulnerable with no naturally developed fear of man? Won't it still just be a turkey shoot?

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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
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Re: no more pet lions,hooray! [Re: Plains99]
      #139420 - 24/07/09 12:51 AM

Quote:

Won't it still just be a turkey shoot?



Yup.

But then, in all honesty, A LOT of South African game ranch hunting {and grh elsewhere} is a "turkey shoot" too.

I agree with cooch.

Let anybody farm anything they want. Cull it as you will as long as suffering is minimized and certainly not purposefully inteneded, and then get the hell out of their way.

Let the market {opinion and ostracism of other hunters} decide. The market can drive out of business any absurd hunting outfits out there IF HUNTERS WANT TO. And if they don't, who cares.

A friend of mine once went pig hunting {uh, oh...} in Tennessee. He was placed in a treestand and told, no COMMANDED, not to leave it "due to safety concerns".

Being the sort he is, after he dumped his running pig with his M1, he descended the treestand for a look around. He found that not too far away, but out of sight of the stand, and along the path the pig was running was a big huge ole pile of corn.

Yup, the oinker had been released from a pen and fed at that spot his whole life.

I never ate any, but my buddy swears the critter tasted as good as any pig I've ever raised in a pen.

Since it, after all, was.

My buddy has never been back...

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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