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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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3006swift
.224 member


Reged: 12/07/07
Posts: 8
Loc: Norway
10,75x68 Barrel length.
      #137420 - 16/06/09 09:27 PM

Hi!
I'm thinking about having a 10,75x68 bulidt on a Brno action (M21).
It will be a carrying rifle to use in partially dense forrest. Therefore I would like to keep the gun as compact as possible, and the only way for me to do this, is by chopping the barrel.
So, here's the question:
What is the shortest functional barrel- length in this calibre, without loosing to much velocity?
Using a barrel longer than 24in./ 60cm, is not an option for me

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: 10,75x68 Barrel length. [Re: 3006swift]
      #137421 - 16/06/09 10:39 PM


I was going to say 24" but 22" is the absolute minimum I would go if you do need shorter than 24"

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grandveneur
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Reged: 21/09/08
Posts: 1356
Loc: France / Germany
Re: 10,75x68 Barrel length. [Re: 3006swift]
      #137427 - 17/06/09 01:08 AM

23" to 24" is a minimum ! A lot of old 10,75x68 rifle's have 28" barrel's!

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9.3x57
.450 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5521
Loc: United States
Re: 10,75x68 Barrel length. [Re: grandveneur]
      #137428 - 17/06/09 01:49 AM

3006swift;

What bullet and what velocity from a 24 inch barrel?

As someone who gets an adrenaline rush every time I get within arm's reach of a hacksaw, I say "Chop Away"!

I am a little familiar with some of your hunting conditions there i norge {from pictures}, and if elg, hjort and rådyr is on the list and shots over 100 meters highly unlikely, you may find a very short barrel to be VERY useful. In fact, for elgjakt there, I think a very short barrel could be very useful indeed. Here in north Idaho, I hunt in much dense timber and have chopped the barrel on a Ruger M77MKII in 6.5x55 and also last year had a CZ550 in 9.3x62 chopped to 19 inches. Very handy, useful rifles!

IIRC, sectional density of 10,75x68 bullets is not particularly high, and the "loss" of velocity might just translate into a gain in penetration with those slower bullets.

The fact that older rifles have long barrels is of course interesting and valuable if you want to match them for tradition sake, but I put no stock in that if you LIKE stubby tubes and the handling of rifles that sport them.

Just my 2 kroner...

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5521
Loc: United States
Re: 10,75x68 Barrel length. [Re: 9.3x57]
      #137430 - 17/06/09 02:09 AM

Just checked;

with a 24 inch barrel, 350 grain bullets starting at 2300 fps more or less.

Being liberal with the fps loss at say, 30 {I do not believe you would lose that much per inch}, that would, obviously, be a total loss of 150 fps to 19 inches or 200 to 18.

I am confident Swifts would open at 2000 to 2100 fps, and I say chop it to 18 or 19 or even 20, have something unique to yourself, and just don't leave it around where some other member of the jaktlag can get his hands on it, or you'll never see it again!!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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3006swift
.224 member


Reged: 12/07/07
Posts: 8
Loc: Norway
Re: 10,75x68 Barrel length. [Re: 9.3x57]
      #137460 - 17/06/09 04:58 PM

Thanks for all the great replies, guys!
mr. potatoethrower (9,3x57): You are right on the spot about norwegian moose beeing the main game I will hunt with this rifle, and maybe the occational deer and even a brown bear in a lifetime, if I'm lucky
While I'm aware that many Mausers of old where "africa-models", made with 28" barrels, I have also seen some original Oberndorf Mausers with 24" tubes, and some even bulidt on a small-ring action, like my Brno
I have been thinking that with modern powers I should be able to have this round chambered in a shorter barrel, like 20", and still get the original velocity of 2150fps with a 347-350grain bullet, or maybe even up to 2300fps.
I would also like to try 400grain bullets my gun, and if anyone has got experience with this bulletweight, and what velocities you get from different barrellengths I would really appreciate that aswell.

The rifle will be buildt in a modern-classic style, with a straight comb made to fit with a low power scope, and a peep sight for back-up. And of course a sling swivel on a barrelband

Thanks for all your help so far.

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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5521
Loc: United States
Re: 10,75x68 Barrel length. [Re: 3006swift]
      #137468 - 18/06/09 03:44 AM

3006, what is the normal twist rate used in the 10,75?

The more I look at this cartridge, the more I think it would be a practical and fun one to work with, except we don't have too many bullets for it.

Bullet diameter in COW is listed as .424, which means many jacketed .44 bullets are available that could easily be sized down to fit the bore, and some very practical loads could be developed for deer using such bullets. Also, of velocities were kept to 2000 fps or so, good work could be done with sized-down "heavy .44 Magnum" cast bullets, too.

Over here, .424 bullets are pretty scarce otherwise.

Those who know both cartridges; Do .404 groove depths run .421 as per COW, or are they commonly deeper as are some other early 20th Century Mauser cartridges? What do common .404 bullets measure?

Seems like even .421 ".404" bullets could be used in the 10.75 as I shoot .366 bullets in my .369 groove depth M146 Husqvarna with good accuracy, and many others do so with Husky's possessing .370 groove barrels.

At the velocities you are suggesting, 3006, I think a sleek 21 Brno wouldn't have to weigh more than 7 or 7 1/2 lbs and still be shootable. Seems like the dog handlers might like such a carbine, too.

Just some further musings...

Hr. Potetkaster

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: 10,75x68 Barrel length. [Re: 9.3x57]
      #137470 - 18/06/09 03:48 AM


I thought 404 was .423 ?

Without going and looking at a box.

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3006swift
.224 member


Reged: 12/07/07
Posts: 8
Loc: Norway
Re: 10,75x68 Barrel length. [Re: 500Nitro]
      #137472 - 18/06/09 05:30 AM

Well, folks. I'm no expert, but I have tried to read up on the subject.
I do not know the twist rate of the original mausers in 10,75x68, but today most barrels are delivered with a 1:14 twist, equal to that of the .404 Jeffery.
Original caliber diameter was as 9,3x57 sais .424", but again, today most new barrels are delivered with a .423 diameter, same as .404 Jeffery.
So basically most of the barrels sold today are the same for 10,75x68 and 10,75x73 (.404 Jeffery)
When it comes to bullets, this gives us the opurtunity to use the same as the Jeffery. Also it is possible to take .429 pistol bullets and run them tru a rezising die. And fortunately for me, there are two guys here in Norway making bullets for this caliber. One makes affordable lead cast bullets, and the other one swages hunting bullets from solid brass/copper. He can also custimise bullets for each intended use
Also there are bullets from Woodleigh, North fork (if they are still in business), Barnes (I think) and Hornady, and possibly some others as well

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eagle27
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Reged: 24/01/09
Posts: 1165
Loc: Rolleston, Christchurch, New Z...
Re: 10,75x68 Barrel length. [Re: 3006swift]
      #137492 - 18/06/09 07:02 PM

The original twist for Mauser barrels in 10.75x68 was 14.17" and the groove size (bullet diameter) was .423”. The 404 Jeffery cartridge was designated 10.75x73 when loaded in Europe so presumably the barrels for this cartridge were the same as used for the smaller Mauser cartridge as is the bullet diameter.

My own original Oberndorf Sporter Mauser opened up to 404 Jeffery from 10.75x68 shoots accurately and stabilises all weights of 10.75 and 404 bullets both of early manufacture and later manufacture.

John Taylor advocated 22” or better still 20” barrels for DG bolt actions as the small loss in velocity that would be experienced in shorter barrels with these heavy bullets still leaves adequate energy. The rifle is handier for use in brush or long grass but depending on the weight of the stock, the overall balance of the rifle could be upset if lopping the barrel too much.

Hope this helps.

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eagle27
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Reged: 24/01/09
Posts: 1165
Loc: Rolleston, Christchurch, New Z...
Re: 10,75x68 Barrel length. [Re: eagle27]
      #137494 - 18/06/09 08:41 PM

Further to my above info, while in Germany some years ago my friend there was sizing down .44 cal 265 grain bullets to 10.75mm to use in his nice little double 10.75x47. With some trial and error and working through slow ignition conditions that manifested with some powders and loads, we did get the little gun to regulate quite well.

The Hornady 265 grain bullets would probably be okay in the smaller 10.75x68 cartridge but a little light for the big 404 case.
I use gas checked 400gr cast bullets in my 404 and have taken some red deer and goats with this load. Much easier on the pocket and the barrel.

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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5521
Loc: United States
Re: 10,75x68 Barrel length. [Re: 500Nitro]
      #137498 - 18/06/09 10:20 PM

Quote:


I thought 404 was .423 ?

Without going and looking at a box.



I had no idea. I was just reading COW and reporting that. I don't have any experience with the cartridge, but after digging around a bit and looking at it, the 10,75x68 looks interesting and practical for our conditions here.

The bear hunters would never let me go home with it. A handy 18-inch barrelled carbine would be the ultimate houndsman's gun here. What a killer 265 or 300 grain resized .44 mag bullets at 2100 fps would be on our smallish bear. Alot like a .444 Marlin which is of course the favorite bear gun for the area here.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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mehulkamdar
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: 10,75x68 Barrel length. [Re: 9.3x57]
      #137527 - 19/06/09 03:10 AM

Mausers sold in India in the old days were marked .423 Mauser.

Good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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escard
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Reged: 24/01/07
Posts: 158
Loc: austria-europe
Re: 10,75x68 Barrel length. [Re: 9.3x57]
      #137576 - 19/06/09 05:27 PM

take the one length that makes the best handling-balance to you......
I have a .404 Jeffery with 22" barrel and it fits absolutely nice (I once have had a .416 RM with only 20,5" barrel and I was very happy with that short-stick)....

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3006swift
.224 member


Reged: 12/07/07
Posts: 8
Loc: Norway
Re: 10,75x68 Barrel length. [Re: escard]
      #137588 - 19/06/09 10:52 PM

Ok!
I'm now a lot wiser, as to what barrel length I will choose, I think
It will be somwhere between 20 an 24 inches. I'll probably start long, as it's easier to cut some of the barrel, than it is to add length
Thanks for all the usefull replies from everybody here.

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Rolf
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Reged: 26/02/07
Posts: 402
Loc: Germany, Bavaria
Re: 10,75x68 Barrel length. [Re: 3006swift]
      #138793 - 11/07/09 06:52 AM

Hello 3006 Swift,

I have a 10,75x68 with a 26" barrel, and that length is a complete nonsense!
(That was my first "custom built" rifle...)
This is a near cylindrical case and I use relatively fast burning powders with the 347grs and 350grs Woodleigh bullets. 350grs are intended for the 404 cartridge and have an other position of the crimping groove.
In my rifle I prefer the 350grainers because I gain a little more powder space, and functioning is equally good with both bullets.
The time this rifle gets a modification package from my gunsmith he will reduce the barrel length to 22".

best regards
Rolf

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: 10,75x68 Barrel length. [Re: 9.3x57]
      #138803 - 11/07/09 12:42 PM

Quote:

Quote:


I thought 404 was .423 ?

Without going and looking at a box.



I had no idea. I was just reading COW and reporting that.



9.3:

With respect to British and European cartridges (especially the older ones), COTW has always been a minefield of bad information.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5521
Loc: United States
Re: 10,75x68 Barrel length. [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #138805 - 11/07/09 02:05 PM

Quote:

9.3:

With respect to British and European cartridges (especially the older ones), COTW has always been a minefield of bad information.



True.

That's why I said what I said.

Just regurgitating COTW, which as it turns out is the correct term.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: 10,75x68 Barrel length. [Re: 9.3x57]
      #138806 - 11/07/09 02:34 PM

Gotcha. Sorry I misunderstood.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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