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tarawa
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Disappointment at the range ..help!
      #136857 - 07/06/09 03:08 AM

Took my .72 Pedersoli to the range for the first time today. I had about fifty .715 balls that I cast using one of Jeff Tanners custom moulds and some linen patches that Jeff suppied. I believe that the the patches are .015" I was the only muzzleloader at the crowded range and I was a bit nervous, haven't ever shooting this thing. The range went "hot" and I had all my stuff ready to go. I was going to only load one barrel for starters. I put in a charge of 100 grains and grabbed a patch which I put a small amount of bore butter on. I grabbed a ball and starter and I tried to load the gun. There was nothing I could do to get the ball started down the bore. I tried with the ball starter and still nothing moved. I did get a blood blister on the palm of my hand trying to get it started. I wrapped up my stuff and left the bench a defeated man. Even the range master wanted to know the problem. We went over everything and come to the conclusion that the stiff linen patches are probably too thick or I am being just too timid trying to get the ball started. I am going to the shop to make a special starter for the large bore, since the store bought one was just digging into the ball. Any pointers from you Kodiak experts would be appreciated.
They did offer to refund my $5.00 range fee which I politely declined.

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gatsby
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Re: Disappointment at the range ..help! [Re: tarawa]
      #136859 - 07/06/09 05:00 AM

It has been a long time since I stuffed a muzzle but that doesn't sound right. What was your bullet alloy. Harder alloys tend to cast larger and may need a thinner patch. I used pure lead for most of my muzzle guns.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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beleg2
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Re: Disappointment at the range ..help! [Re: gatsby]
      #136860 - 07/06/09 06:22 AM

Hi George,
Im far away to check myself so, answer some questions please:
Balls are pure lead?
When you put the ball on the muzzle how much of it stick out?

You can try with some thin cloth, start the ball with a big piece of cloth so you can retrive it. Remember that the barrel is coseat the breach.
Also you can make a hole in a ball and put a secrew to retrive it.

Hope this helps.
Martin

PS: I have been waiting to read about your shooting with the .72.

Edited by beleg2 (07/06/09 06:22 AM)


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tarawa
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Re: Disappointment at the range ..help! [Re: beleg2]
      #136868 - 07/06/09 11:41 AM

Well to answer your questions.
1) Balls were cast from lead shot. Slightly harder than pure lead.
2)All of the ball stuck out. Never got it started!

Martin, I was hoping for a good report for you, since I wanted to take the gun shooting pigs on Friday.
George

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beleg2
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Re: Disappointment at the range ..help! [Re: tarawa]
      #136869 - 07/06/09 12:07 PM

George,
Sorry for asking the wrong question:
Can you press the nude ball into the barrel?
The Rb I shot from my Kodiak falls into the barrel some inchs.
They have to be bore diameter or a little bigger but not much.

If the RB are correct just try some thinner cloth and it will work fine.

Martin

Edited by beleg2 (07/06/09 12:15 PM)


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gatsby
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Re: Disappointment at the range ..help! [Re: tarawa]
      #136870 - 07/06/09 12:12 PM

I believe lead shot contains a fairly good amount of antimony. Could be much harder than you think and cause the mold to cast .002 larger.

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"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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tarawa
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Re: Disappointment at the range ..help! [Re: beleg2]
      #136872 - 07/06/09 12:26 PM

I mic'd the balls and they are between .715 and .717. The bare ball falls down the bore a few inches, but I didn't let them fall as far as they could. I picked up some .010 linen today and will try again.

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tarawa
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Re: Disappointment at the range ..help! [Re: tarawa]
      #136873 - 07/06/09 12:34 PM

I just found out that if I measure along the mould seam of the ball it comes out close to the .715". If I measure perpendicular to the seam the balls measure closer to .725". That isn't too good! I am wondering since I cast so may balls the mould expanded??????? I guess I need to get some pure lead next or just find some balls.

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Disappointment at the range ..help! [Re: tarawa]
      #136888 - 07/06/09 11:52 PM

Tarawa - first of all, you need pure lead - or a slightly smaller ball, say .710".
Since the mould is casting oblong balls across the vavity, not on the seam, the reason is due to a buildup of lead on the closing surfaces - probably close to the entry hole which holds the blocks slightly open & casts a larger ball across the cavities.

The mould blocks have to be cleaned of all lead, then treated to a moly spray (Hoppe's or MS Moly) or Rapine's mould prep to help prevent lead from sticking to the blocks. Merely smoking the blocks is a quick fix that doesn't last as well as the moly or mould prep.

Also, if you are running your lead heat a bit high, the blocks are prone to picking up lead by a weak soldering (sticking) of the metal.

Lead shot of today is too hard for round balls - except for someone who has some experience with shooting muzzleloaders & knows how to load hard balls.(ball size and patch requirements)

This is a wonderful site, but for your specific problems, you should go to www.americanlongrifles.com . There are many people there who have a great deal of experience with muzzleloading.

Was just thinking, that if the ball measures .725" on the round, the bore must be even larger than that if the ball will enter so with the grooves diameter even larger than THAT, it must be a true 12 bore(.729") or larger yet. The .710" is the proper sized ball for you for a .020" patch - or thicker. Dop not use a patch that allows you to 2 -finger the load down the bore - it will be innacurate past 25 yards as well, the ball will slide forward in one barrel as you fire the other creating a dangerous situation to you and the gun, ie" ringing or blowing up. Do NOT use slugs for the very same reaspn. It is a round ball gun.

Your inability to seat the ball is probably due to too sharp a crown on the muzzles. You need to re-crown the muzzles and to do this, 320 grit emery cloth and your thumb are all that's needed. The use of a tapered grinding stone first, applied with an electric drill to get the angles cut will speed the process, but it can be done with your thumb all by itself. Place the emery over the muzzle stick your thumb into it and rotate while pushing down HARD. Some lube, like WD40 is fine. I shove a wad of cloth down the barret to catch the 'grindings' and stone particals, which comes out when you pull the cloth with the barrel 'worm'.
The picture below is a crown that allows loading a ball that is larger than the muzzle, with a patch that is .020" thick.

My own .14 bore rifle uses a ball that is .006" smaller than the bore, wiht a .027" denim patch and loads easly.

The 'starter' has to be of large size and have some weight. One pounding motion smack of the bottom of the starter with thw shaft held in your hand, is all that's needed to seat the ball and patch flush with the muzzle. Turn the starter around and with one smack of the hand on the top, the shaft puts the ball some 5" or so donw the bore. The rod is used to shove the ball down to the powder, in 5" or 6" shoves, choking up on the rod.

If you want to shoot accurately and all day without having to clean, this is how to load & use something like Hoppe's #9 PLUS for lube. Regular Hoppe's #9 is for modern rifles & smokeless powder, #9 PLUS is for black powder. If you just want to make smoke and have go clean often & get miserable accuracy, use a thinner patch, with bore butter (it's merely lip balm with wintegreen oil to make it smell good enough to eat - really) and it's a lousey lube, sticks & builds up in the corners of the grooves and causes innacuracy after just a few shots.

Here is a crown that allows loading combinations that give good to excellent accuracy.

Due to time involved preparing this responce, I'll edit to include the picture.



--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (07/06/09 11:54 PM)


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tarawa
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Re: Disappointment at the range ..help! [Re: tarawa]
      #136894 - 08/06/09 12:59 AM

Thanks Daryl,
I am a member at the other site. Here are some pics of the balls. The mould was quite clean when moulding, but I need the release agent I guess.





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gatsby
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Re: Disappointment at the range ..help! [Re: DarylS]
      #136909 - 08/06/09 04:26 AM

Daryl,
I am not a big muzzle loader but don't you think most of the problems with this gun stem from trying to load a too large patch ball combo cast in an alloy that is probably 16 to 1 or harder?
I just get chills thinking about crowning the muzzle of a new gun with a drill.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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tarawa
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Re: Disappointment at the range ..help! [Re: gatsby]
      #136928 - 08/06/09 11:20 AM

Jeff Tanner the mould maker says that the problem was the mould. He feels that the plunge depth of his tooling was off. Also he is replacing it with a .705 mould which he feels is better with the patch used. He has great customer service.

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beleg2
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Re: Disappointment at the range ..help! [Re: tarawa]
      #136956 - 08/06/09 09:01 PM

Good!
Keep posting.
Martin


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Dphariss
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Re: Disappointment at the range ..help! [Re: tarawa]
      #136966 - 08/06/09 10:45 PM

You always need to try the fit before getting to deep into casting bullets. I seat the ball on a 6-8" long strip of patching and then pull it back out to test fits.
My 16 bore will shoot WW balls or pure lead but the hard balls need about .010-.012" thinner patches. I use .020-.022 with pure lead.

Lead shot is hardened (chilled) and is as hard or harder than unquenched WW.
I have no idea what rifling form you rifle has but my 16 bore has very narrow lands and very wide grooves. It loads easy. Rifles with wider lands will load much harder with hard lead.
The smaller ball will likely cure the problem
Dan


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Disappointment at the range ..help! [Re: Dphariss]
      #136979 - 09/06/09 12:48 AM

I'm glad Jeff is replacing the mould. He's a good man. Although I agree the shot is too hard for the oblong ball, it should be OK for a bore that large (over .726") with a ball .710". .705" should require at least a .025" patch with a .730" bore.
Do the math - measure the groove diameter and the bore diameter to find rifling depth.
Measure the ball and patch thickness. The ball shold be about .010 to .015" smaller than the bore for shooting hard lead.
Ball diameter plus 2 times the patch thickness should come to about .005" LARGER than the GROOVE diameter for shooting a hard ball. This allows for compression of the patch material and to give sufficient scraping action to wipe the bore clean each time you load it.

Muzzleloader shooting has a learning curve - longer than learning to shoot any other form of rifle or handgun.

The use of a 'range' rod will help with the learning of: proper load combinations - amount of lube needed - types of lube needed & the reason is a 'range rod' is heavier, thicker, less break-prone. The range rod should be 1/2" Hickory or 5/8" Ramin and 4 or 5" longer than your barrels. The range rod should have a brass end, which is drilled and tapped for either 8x32 or 10x32 threads to fit normal rod attachments, like screw-type ball pullers and jags for cleaning and worms for patch retrieval or for holding towe for cleaning, the old way. These are normal accouterments that should be carried in a small leather bag in a pocket inside the hunting (possibles) bag.

For starters and working up a load & learning to shoot the muzzleloader at the range, I'd go with a wet, water based lube. These keep the fouling soft and are easy loading for a number of shots - IF the patches are wet. Damp doesn't work. No, they won't spoil the charge over a couple minutes - which is longer than one would be leaving it loaded when actively shooting.
one of the best lubes for range shooting and the one I'm currently shooting, is windshield washer fluid (windex window cleaner will also work well) with the addition of a soap - Iuse liquid hand soap - couple squirts in a quart of cleaner. The soap helps slow the evapouration of the water/alcohol based cleaner - I think. I lube patches the night before going shooting, put them in the patch container - small metal box and put that in my bag. The next day, they're perfectly lubed and don't dry out that day.

You can use an oil, like neetsfoot oil or mink oil, or bear oil, but don't use a petrolium based lube or oil - petrolium does not mix with black powder. The oils won't give as clean shooting as a water based lube, but are necessary for a hunting situation. You cannot use a water based lube for hunting.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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beleg2
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Re: Disappointment at the range ..help! [Re: DarylS]
      #137001 - 09/06/09 04:56 AM

I second range rod idea.
I have two range rod, una for my Kodiak, mada from a fiberglass stick from New Zeland (Gallagher) that I used for years when I was working with cows.
The other (for my .50 underhammer) is a stell 3/8" rod.
Both are threaded for accesories and both have muzzlecrown protectors.

Martin


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Disappointment at the range ..help! [Re: beleg2]
      #137004 - 09/06/09 09:59 AM

Martin - I sincerely hope that fiberglass rod is coated with something. Using a bare fiberglass rod in a muzzleloader, or anyting else, is like loading and cleaning with a long round file.

Do a test, take a piece of steel and rub the rod on it forward and back about 20 times each way. A fiberglass rod will cut a groove in the steel like a very fine file will, albeit with less strokes.

I used to use one for my tight twist custom .50 barrel when experimenting with various tight mechanically fitting bullets. I had to re-crown the barrel every 200 shots (3 to 4 range sessons) due to the grooving around the muzzle and loss of accuracy. Cutting 1/4" off the muzzle and re-crowning restored accuracy every time. It was a MOA rifle(ie: consistant 1" at 100 yards) so the drop in accuracy was easily seen. I'd cut and re-crown when it opened to 1 3/4".

With my current steel 'range rods' for the small bores, I have collars to protect the bore, made from rimmed ctg. cases with the centre of the base bored out to fit the rod. The rods are long and therefore allow easy use of the collars. The hole is rod-sized with the jags slightly larger to keep it on the rod. The rim stops the collar at the muzzle. i use 1/4" aircraft stainless for those rods, one for the 42" .45 and the other, a bit shorter for the .36", .40.

The rod for my .69 is nylon.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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beleg2
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Re: Disappointment at the range ..help! *DELETED* [Re: DarylS]
      #137005 - 09/06/09 10:42 AM

Post deleted by beleg2

Edited by beleg2 (09/06/09 10:44 AM)


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beleg2
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Re: Disappointment at the range ..help! *DELETED* [Re: beleg2]
      #137025 - 09/06/09 09:01 PM

Post deleted by beleg2

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Disappointment at the range ..help! [Re: beleg2]
      #137039 - 09/06/09 11:22 PM

we must keep this to the subject at hand and to topic

Edited by Daryl_S (09/06/09 11:24 PM)


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beleg2
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Re: Disappointment at the range ..help! [Re: DarylS]
      #137042 - 10/06/09 12:10 AM

Thanks Daryl
Sorry.
Martin


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degoins
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Re: Disappointment at the range ..help! [Re: beleg2]
      #137060 - 10/06/09 07:59 AM

I had the same problem with my .72 Kodiak using .715 balls that I got from Track of the Wolf using pillow ticking patches. I finally lubed some plain old flannel cleaning patches with bore butter and problem solved. 120 grains of Goex FF puts em right beside each other at 25 yards. Hope this helps.

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tarawa
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Re: Disappointment at the range ..help! [Re: degoins]
      #137609 - 20/06/09 07:39 AM

I received the new mould just days after I emailed Mr. Tanner. Great service. I returned the other mould back to him. Hopefully I can get to the range soon and try out all these great ideas.
Thanks guys. Also support the mould makers!

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tarawa
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Re: Disappointment at the range ..help! [Re: tarawa]
      #140371 - 11/08/09 12:10 PM

I have been really busy for the past month, so when my buddy asked me to go to the range, I got real excited. I fired up the melting pot and tried out the new mold. They came out a perfect .705!
I never got a chance to get the heavier patches, so the .015" ones would have to do. I couldn't let the wrong patch size from keeping me from finally shooting the Kodiak.
At the range.
Loaded up 120 grain of American Pioneer FFG with some bore butter lube. The .705 ball loaded effortlessly (which is probably not good).
Fired the right then the left. Very light recoil.
At 50 yards, the first two shots touched each other. I was excited!
From there on, it went down hill. Shots were spreading out, but I blame myself. This was no scientific experiment, just fun shooting. Everyone at the range wanted a turn.
I am not sure if I like that powder. It is really coarse and wouldn't even come out of the powder dispenser. The can said to use no lube with the powder, but of course I did. Will try some of the other powder next time. I believe it is Shockey Gold or something like that. I will by some Triple 7 or real black powder next time.
I will also use heavier patch material.

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beleg2
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Re: Disappointment at the range ..help! [Re: tarawa]
      #140420 - 11/08/09 10:32 PM

Good Tarawa!!!

Shooting the Kodiaks is a learning curve.
Do you measure dispersion?
For drie patch you should try Daryls paper cones.

Thanks for sharing.
Martin


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