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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns

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tinkerModerator
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Got your Swine-Flu medicine right here...
      #134087 - 01/05/09 01:42 PM

Westley Richards 16b SxS TLH rifle










Been in this deal since early winter.
Just picked it up at US Customs this afternoon.
Barrel-slugging with proper size roundball suggests that this could be just the ticket for punching perfectly octagonal holes through this great state's feral pig population, two by two...
More details to follow.




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Got your Swine-Flu medicine right here... [Re: tinker]
      #134094 - 01/05/09 03:22 PM

Perfect! Go wage war on the swine in the interests of the nation!

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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peter
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Re: Got your Swine-Flu medicine right here... [Re: NitroX]
      #134119 - 01/05/09 10:34 PM

tinker

you got it at last, i hope you do understand that i am green with envy and think evil thoughts about you, on the other hand, i know you can appriciate the work that went into that gun.

congratulations on a fine gun indeed, lets see if we can take the 12 and the 16 after bear in the fall

best

peter


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Der_Jaeger
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Re: Got your Swine-Flu medicine right here... [Re: peter]
      #134124 - 01/05/09 11:01 PM


Beautiful looking gun and stunning wood! I don't know about all the the hardships you went through to finally get uit, but i'm sure it'll only add to it's intrinsic value to you. Congrats!

--------------------


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Ripp
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Re: Got your Swine-Flu medicine right here... [Re: Der_Jaeger]
      #134135 - 02/05/09 12:06 AM

Stunning firearm--congrats...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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DarylS
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Re: Got your Swine-Flu medicine right here... [Re: Ripp]
      #134137 - 02/05/09 12:14 AM

Now THAT is a rifle!!!!! Way to go Tinker!

What a 'lively' stock!

What's the chamber length?

Rate of twist?

16 bore brass from Buffalo Arms holds up to 160gr.2F. My Husky side by side is shooting to the sights with 3 drams 2F and card and fibre wads with a 14 bore ball. The right barrel is actually 13 bore to the bottom of it's straight grooves. Left bore is smooth at 16 bore. The 16 bore brass cases will actually hold a 13 bore ball.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (02/05/09 12:20 AM)


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500grains
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Re: Got your Swine-Flu medicine right here... [Re: DarylS]
      #134143 - 02/05/09 12:48 AM

Another beauty!

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Buchsemann
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Re: Got your Swine-Flu medicine right here... [Re: 500grains]
      #134151 - 02/05/09 01:26 AM

Tinker,

Whacking a bunch of West Coast porkers with your latest classic sounds like a boat-load of fun.

Very nice gun, love the wood.

Regards,

Marcus

--------------------
Happy the man, and happy he alone,
He who can call today his own:
He who, secure within, can say,
Tomorrow do thy worst, for I have lived today.

- John Dryden


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tinkerModerator
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Re: Got your Swine-Flu medicine right here... [Re: 500grains]
      #134154 - 02/05/09 01:34 AM

The rifle is quite nice.
According to my ink-signed Westley Richards documents, it was delivered to the New Bond Street shop in 1864
At some time later it went through the shop of F.Fletcher of Gloucester, this is advertised on the rib extension.
Ever hear of Fletcher?
Evidently, S Baker thought very highly of Fletcher and spoke to that effect on a few of his books. S Baker's favorite rifle (the one that went to bed with him every night) was built by Fletcher of Gloucester.

The chambers are long, to the tune of 3" long.
2-3/4" Chedite, Federal, and Winchester hulls all fit in there just fine.
Tom Armbrust did a pressure/velocity test for me in winter with Seven drams weight Swiss 2f Black in Chedite Paper Hulls
.670 Roundball
card wad
1/8" lubed felt wad
65lb seating pressure
665 bore (his pressure barrel, these grooves are a bit bigger, but more on that later)

Two shots

13,550 psi
1784 fpsMV
1780 fpsMV

When I'd called him to ask if he'd run this hot of 16bore rifle loads before, he told me that he hadn't, but that he was thrilled at the idea so I shipped him roundball and hulls.

The day he tested the loads, it was all he could do to get back to his kitchen to call me, still laughing!
His first comment was that there was 'Lots of Smoke!', furthermore, excellent velocity and essentially no indication of pressure sign on the french paper hulls.
If it weren't for the piercing from the chamber tranducer, Tom reported that the hulls could be reloaded 'numerous times'


I don't know if this rifle will regulate with seven drams of black.
If it does... I'd be just fine with that.
The rifle weighs right about 12lbs, I'll get it on an accurate scale later for a better number.
The action is absolutely solid. It locks tight as can be without being stiff in function (freakin vault), there's two bites under the flats and a crossbolt through the rib extension.
The action itself appears to be 10-bore size, with the action balls cropped close to the head.
This thing is solid and massive.

The wood is marvelous.
In the words of an 'old retired stock finisher for the London trade' this wood is to die for.
It passed through his hands during a 'little weekend at the spa' on it's way to me here in California.

Hopefully I'll get some time together this weekend to run some black and roundball through it at the ranch.
You guys cross a finger for me.

Until then Peter get your 12bore ready for a walk through the Northern woods this fall, our rifles will definitely do against coastal black bear!



Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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lancaster
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Re: Got your Swine-Flu medicine right here... [Re: tinker]
      #134164 - 02/05/09 03:29 AM

must be like a second christmas for you

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Huvius
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Re: Got your Swine-Flu medicine right here... [Re: lancaster]
      #134165 - 02/05/09 03:41 AM

What a knockout!
Congrats tinker!

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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Sarg
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Re: Got your Swine-Flu medicine right here... [Re: tinker]
      #134194 - 02/05/09 09:55 AM

Great looking , powerful rifle Tinker !
And such an early top lever rifle , very cool !

Did you trade any Lee Speeds on it & have you shot any pork with the Lee yet ?


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tinkerModerator
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Re: Got your Swine-Flu medicine right here... [Re: Sarg]
      #134220 - 02/05/09 02:49 PM

Sarg-

It's a looker, and there's been quite an effort behind that in the past few months - I'll flesh that story out later on.
On the action configuration, I have documentation and images of other TLH WR SxS rifles from that period, just not anything as robust as this thing is. I'm sure we can credit that to the Fletcher shop of Gloucester.

On Lee Speeds, I have only one -- and I have you to thank for that! I owe you in a big way on that one and don't think I'll ever let that slick little bolt rifle go. Too many lessons learned along that way, and you know what I mean.
I'll be getting the photo gear out some time next week to do a little show-and-tell on it too. It shoots.

I haven't killed anything big enough to grill this year.
I'm just about strung-up with cabin fever too. Every time it appears as if I have a moment to slip out into the wilderness my wife/kids/work/health goes to hell.
A troll under the bridge warned me that if this keeps up I'll end up sleep-walking my way out in the wee hours of the dark with rifle-in-hand and wake on the game-trail chasing my hound in morning's first light...


With all life's complications, I keep wishing things could be as simple as my brit sporting rifles!




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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Paul
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Re: Got your Swine-Flu medicine right here... [Re: tinker]
      #134250 - 03/05/09 12:56 AM

I generally prefer hammerless but that one beautiful rifle. Love the wood and the ubiquitous chequering. Has it been freshened up, stock-wise?
- Paul


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Got your Swine-Flu medicine right here... [Re: Paul]
      #134251 - 03/05/09 01:01 AM

Quote:

I generally prefer hammerless but that one beautiful rifle. Love the wood and the ubiquitous chequering. Has it been freshened up, stock-wise?- Paul




Compare the metal work on the trigger guard etc to the stock finish. Undoubtedly.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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tinkerModerator
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Re: Got your Swine-Flu medicine right here... [Re: NitroX]
      #134258 - 03/05/09 01:42 AM

I'm sure this rifle has had more than one little freshen-up in it's time, and yes as noted above there was a fair bit of massage etc in London on it's way over here to the states.

It seems to have taken it's 'sleeping beauty' wake-up-call quite well though, and considering the hands it's passed through it makes good sense.

When I get more than a few minutes together to comment, I'll share some more on the rifle -- including how neat that trigger-guard really is!




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Got your Swine-Flu medicine right here... [Re: tinker]
      #134310 - 03/05/09 03:53 PM

Quote:

... including how neat that trigger-guard really is!





The bottom of the trigger guard looks faintly engraved with a beast.

Lets have a guessing game, what is it?

I'm guessing a gaur or a tiger! The head looks bovine but it may have a long tail.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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tinkerModerator
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
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Re: Got your Swine-Flu medicine right here... [Re: tinker]
      #134384 - 04/05/09 09:38 AM

We've had a big weekend on the road, but I was able to get a few minutes on the ranch yesterday morning (in the rain!) to run a couple cartridges through the WR.

6 o'clock hold on the black circle
Fired over 50yd leaf at 50yds
Essentially no distress to cartridge hulls whatsoever, except for very slight moist fouling in case mouth -- no burn at all anywhere.
White plastic base wad totally unaffected.
Massive smoke plume and glorious muzzle report.

Cheddite 2-3/4" paper hulls
140gr Goex FFg
3/8" lubricated hard felt wad
1/8" lubricated donut felt wad
.672" roundball
Ball seats at case mouth
No chrono reading
Fired right, walked 50yds to target, walked back fired left.

Right barrel prints to right
Left barrel prints to left
Vertical dispersion could easily have been from hold





Next time out hopefully I will have more time, I'll try similar ball, 160gr Goex
I will also try Swiss powder in 1-1/2F and 2f
I will also be trying slightly larger diameter ball.





Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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tinkerModerator
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The 16-bore rifle, fiddling with the load [Re: tinker]
      #134881 - 09/05/09 05:12 AM

Like they say, no two rifles are alike...


Shooting the rifle with 160 grains Goex 2F was a completely different experience than the 140gr load. The muzzle report was fantastic - much more of a crisp crack than the boom of the first load. My sense says that the increased payload/back pressure yielded a more efficient burn. There was less smoke and a much more distinct flame cone from the muzzles - yet the fouling remained moist and constant from the breech to the muzzle.

The 160gr load hit a bit higher on the target - but not by much. The front sight looked tall to me from the start, and I'm guessing someone had it built to account for their vision issues. Front sights are pretty easy to reproduce in different heights, if necessary the rear could be fiddled with too. My chronograph has had a headache lately and is mid-repair. Hopefully this weekend I'll get it up and running under the next series of loads.

Something else to note, I managed to recover one of the felt wads from the last couple of shots -- at seventy-five yards from the muzzles
It was in excellent shape and still contained lube, also it had eight slender little pinstripes around it's circumference indicating flame-cutting past the wad through the grooves. The ball I'd been running just wasn't bumping up enough to seal, and I'd suspected that would be the case.

To prepare for this I'd ordered some .690 ball from Track to see if the rifle would like it.



The 14-bore ball won't fit with paper hulls, but does nicely in the thin brass CBC cases. The CBC brass is shorter than these chambers though, so there will be about 1/2" jump from the crimp to the leade. I reckon this will be OK, but the .653" 'across the flats' (tightest bore) to .683 'at the corners' (groove) numbers have me thinking it's gonna be a squeeze.
Notice the two balls on the patch in the photo above.
The width (muzzle to breech) of the bearing surface in the grooves ends up being about .100" as-slugged.
That should fix any gas-seal issues.
I'll see how it runs with 150 grains and this ball.
I'm thinking the initial bump, good gas seal, and brisk charge of powder might just raise the rifle to where it's printing hits on the point of aim.

The brass with 14bore ball definitely looks nice...




If from the results on the bench and target, and over the chronograph all together show a good load with this ball I'll look at the sights for the final answer to getting the POA to equal the POI
I have an old bag mould that needs a bit of touch-up work, will likely lap it up to somewhere between groove and .690 to test other ball sizes in the rifle too.


Also, NitroX - that's a Lion on the triggerguard.
I'll get his photo up here later on today.

Daryl, the rate of twist is one turn in 42"





Cheers
Tinker


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DarylS
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Re: The 16-bore rifle, fiddling with the load [Re: tinker]
      #134898 - 09/05/09 10:20 AM

Hmm - 1 in 42" makes me think it's rifled for a short slug. If possible, you could make a swage and draw the .690's or a .700" down to .683", giving a proper length for the gun.

As-is, the .690's if they don't lead, should be ok as-is, due to the fit in the 'throat' that will be there with short brass.

Your loads look about identical to my 14 bores loaded for the Husky's 13 bore barrel(.703" grooved diameter) with, in my case, a .684" ball. They only engrave a few though, but with straight rifling, work just fine. The mould I have is Italian - maybe Pedersoli and would be the perfect size for your rifle. In Pure lead, they run 480gr. and in WW, a mere 466gr. Quite the moose thumpers they are, too(from my single 14 bore rifle).


Working with these thumpers is sure a lot of fun - and a lot of gun! 160gr., almost 6 drams is a healthy charge and about the same as I use in my muzzleloading 14 bore rifle. They are very accurate at longer ranges, from 50 yards on out to 300 meters and are very consistant as well.

Was out shooting with a fellow the other day - bed his new Rem. '06 for him - first target was poor, with his handload (first for him) as well as 180gr. Silvertips, not so hot. I asked him if I could fire a couple on his first target and he said 'go ahead, you can shoot at it". Well, the first one went just over the bull where I expected it, and second cut the first - perfect! He was suitably impresssed - and amazed. His '06 has a 5-15X scope and he was using double bags, while I held the gun as if shooting offhand, only resting the back of my left hand on the bench rest. This is typical accuracy from this rifle over the past 12 years (built in Spring '86).

With factory Fed. Fusions and TSX's his '06 printed 3/4" and 3/8" respectively for 5 shots, me shooting. He then put 3 into 1 1/4" at 200 meters - good load for that rifle. Couldn't be better, actually. i was tickled it worked with his favourite loads. Prior, it was doing over an inch with both.

With work, yours 16 will do as well as my single. Maybe not both barrels into the same group, but it has the potential to put each tube into similar groups - hopefully paralell. My rifle usually shoots 1.2" to 1.5" for 5 at 100 meters. It has Express-type sights.


Edited by Daryl_S (09/05/09 10:35 AM)


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tinkerModerator
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Reged: 12/03/05
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Re: The 16-bore rifle, fiddling with the load [Re: DarylS]
      #135155 - 12/05/09 07:56 AM

Daryl-


Short slug -- I have the Lyman mould for the 12-gauge flat-point slug. I haven't run them in the rifle yet, but may do so some time soon. If so I'll likely make a different plug to somewhat shorten the hollow section in the tail.


That .684 ball mould you have sounds like a good in-between.
I'd like to buy a pound of lead ball from you!


Any way it goes, I have a feeling that this rifle is an accurate one.
Each time at the ranch lately has been short, and I haven't had the time to put a good part of a day to load testing and shooting, still each time out the rifle seems to be putting them into the same aggregate group.
The chronograph is still on the fritz, hopefully I'll get it sorted out right away so that I can report back with velocities.
This will come soon...




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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lancaster
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Reged: 06/05/08
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Re: The 16-bore rifle, fiddling with the load [Re: tinker]
      #135194 - 12/05/09 07:54 PM

tinker, what you need is a russian girlfriend. the tula cartridge factory is making 16/70 brass but is not willing to export other than you have to order a truck load. to bad, its fine brass.

tula 20/70 cbc 16/65 tula 12/70
barnaul dont make the crome platted steel cases in 16 bore http://www.barnaulammunition.com/shotgun.htm

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (12/05/09 07:55 PM)


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tinkerModerator
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Reged: 12/03/05
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Re: The 16-bore rifle, fiddling with the load [Re: lancaster]
      #135232 - 13/05/09 04:13 AM

Thanks Lancaster-


I'm happy to pursue the Russian girlfriend task, and I might actually have a good start with that. I currently have an ex-wife in Russia and have asked her look into finding a source for the 70mm cases in small quantity or to just mail some home to me.


Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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Kapu
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Re: The 16-bore rifle, fiddling with the load [Re: tinker]
      #135274 - 13/05/09 04:18 PM

Tinker,

If not successful of getting the brass with the help of your ex-wife, give me a note. Not offering my self to your muse, but once living in Moscow, I do have a change of getting those in to my hand.


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tinkerModerator
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Re: The 16-bore rifle, fiddling with the load [Re: Kapu]
      #135346 - 14/05/09 10:25 AM

Kapu-


I would very much appreciate your effort, and I'll write you a note on our private messaging system here.

I've left a note with my ex-wife, but I'm not sure she'll be able to get anything together for me as she's traveling through Russia - and might be out of the country by now.


Thanks for the offer!




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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