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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns

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vegard_dino
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Reged: 05/03/09
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Roundballs in a 16Ga?
      #133410 - 25/04/09 03:07 AM



Hi all

I am new to black power shooting, hunting and all that´s around that. But, the idea of shooting and hunting with is getting more and more interesting.

And now I am looking at a drilling with 16/16 over 11.5x65R, black power or Nitro as some say.

Well, at first I was thinking it is a nice drilling, but black power. Then, I did read about roundballs, hunting with bore guns and so one. Tinker did give me a very good link about hunting with roundballs/bore guns, Thank you!

But, these drilling is a shotgun, not a "bore" gun. So, can I load roundballs in it, and go hunting with that?
I also need to find out about the rifle caliber, if brass is around, bullets today and so one.

But, all in all, it is VERY interesting to think about it..and.....yes, like to try it out.

Thanks for looking

--------------------
Cheers all, Vegard_dino


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DarylS
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Re: Roundballs in a 16Ga? [Re: vegard_dino]
      #133411 - 25/04/09 03:13 AM

Vegard_dino - first thing to do is to measure the smallest diameter of the bores - the choke to decide what ball diameter is required.
Here are shot shot loads, patched round ball loads and round ball loads for my 16 bore - all loaded with black powder in 2 1/2" brass due to the 2 5/8" chamber. Using plastic in a 2 3/4" chamber, a roll or folded crimp can be used with round balls - just depends on the wad clumn height.


--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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vegard_dino
.333 member


Reged: 05/03/09
Posts: 262
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Re: Roundballs in a 16Ga? [Re: DarylS]
      #133412 - 25/04/09 04:03 AM


Hi

Thank you for the reply.

Well, got it, have to find out how large ball the barrels can take. Have to hope they have the same choke....if not, have them re-choked.

There is something about the look of that brass....What weight you have on these roundballs?
You have a 16 bore, but that is not the same as a 16 ga? Or is it?

That a shotgun barrel have nothing to guide the roundball/bullet, I am thinking; will I be able to hit anything at all?
Knowing that old bore guns hard the rifling, and so also was made to the shotguns, that was named paradox.

Thanks for looking

--------------------
Cheers all, Vegard_dino


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DarylS
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Re: Roundballs in a 16Ga? [Re: vegard_dino]
      #133414 - 25/04/09 06:27 AM

Vegard - 12 bore is 12 gauge, 16 bore is 16 gauge, etc.

You will probably have to use a .640" round ball due to the chokes. I would then use a patched round ball as explained in the private message - or - buy some plastic wads or plastic gas-check wads that have a cup on the bottom of the wad. Mind you, you cannot put plastic right on black powder without protecting the plastic from it's flames upon ignition. You will also need 1/8" hard card wads, called overpowder wads.

You load the powder, then the hard card wad, then the cupped wad or cut-off cupped wad with the cup facing up to hold the ball in the middle of the bore, then either fold crimp with plastic hullslike you would when loading shot or if you want to roll crimp, a disk of paper called a "B" wad or "BB" is placed over the ball then the hull is roll crimped with a special tool held in a drill press. You adjust the ball's height in the case with more or less wads.

You 'must' have some method of holding the ball in the middle of the bore as it accellerates up the barrel. I have found the gas-check cups cut off expended trap wads alying allover the ground at the loca trap range work well in 12 gauge round ball loads. Other guys here have had good luck with fibre wads with the centre cut out to hold the ball in the centre of the bore. This is important so that the ball is delivered straight towards the target without bouncing back and forth up the barrel on it's way out, then starting of at an angle at the muzzle due to being smaller than the bore. That was the problem with the old Punkin Ball factory round ball loads of the 1950's. The balls were were very much undersized and did not have anything to stop them from bouncing back and forth up the tube, coating the bore with lead and producing miserable accuracy past 20 yards.

With some work, and some good shooting, you should be able to make a diagram, with 2 sights (rear and front)of 5 shots into 3 1/2", maybe even better than that.

The maximum range is dependent on the accuracy you can achieve, range is not restricted by the power.

A 16 gauge hull will hold up to about 5 to 6 drams of real black powder, which will give a 440gr. round ball some 1,600fps. If you use 'Swiss' 1 1/2 powder, that velocity might be even higher. Of course, lighter charges can be used as well. I'd not hung with less than about 3 drams which is 82gr.

If you want to use it in Africa, you'll be more interested in full cases of black powder to get all the power you can. It would be very effective for most game, within it's accuracy range.

Keep in touch.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (25/04/09 06:29 AM)


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tinkerModerator
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Re: Roundballs in a 16Ga? [Re: DarylS]
      #133415 - 25/04/09 06:52 AM

Ditto Daryl's comment on keeping the roundball centered in the bore.

This is how I prepare my wadding for one of my bore rifles.
Note the ball in the tweezers with the felt wadding.
It's sitting on a ring-shaped wad which is sitting on a disc-shaped wad. The ring-shaped (or Donut shaped if you prefer..!) wad expands against the barrel wall under pressure, sealing the wad column and keeps the ball centered on it's way into the throat.

Also note the red card-wad for separating the powder from the lubricated felt wads.
I form them in the steel ring from discs.
These cup-shaped card wads go in the cartridge with the 'cup' shape facing the powder.
Pressure 'inflates' the cup-shaped card, further contributing to consistent gas-seal.




Here's a cut-away of a WR Super Explora (magnum paradox) cartridge.




And here's a diagram from a mid-19th century text showing typical bore-rifle cartridge load column.
Powder against bullet!




The two 'rifle' loads are just shown for academic purpose.
Both show flat-based bullets.
The roundball needs something to account for the hemispherical shape of the rear end of the ball -- simple flat wadding will 'wrap' around the ball and compromise both gas-sealing and bore-sealing properties of the lubed wad column.



Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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vegard_dino
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Re: Roundballs in a 16Ga? [Re: DarylS]
      #133425 - 25/04/09 07:22 AM



Hi Daryl_S

Thank you for the reply, and the pm. Well, now I understand a bit more.

And, I am even more interested in trying these things out
I must find a way to hold the ball straight in the barrel, if not it will just not be any accuracy from my gun. Sounds like a lot of work, but, fun work.

As you say, the max range one can shoot at is all down to accuracy. But with these kinds of guns/loads, I am looking at short range hunting. That is what I like to, stalk close, if I can, and enjoy.

A 16ga round ball of 400-440 gr moving at 1600 fps is a hard hitting ball! Great for short range boar, deer, elk.


Oh, the more I think about it, the better it sounds

Thanks, I will let you know what I do, and how it goes, and for sure be back with more questions......

--------------------
Cheers all, Vegard_dino


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vegard_dino
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Reged: 05/03/09
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Re: Roundballs in a 16Ga? [Re: tinker]
      #133428 - 25/04/09 07:29 AM



Hello Tinker

Thanks for helping me.

Thanks for the photo`s to. Learning more and more.....Thanks

Need to have a good bore-sealing, in order to get accuracy, good fps and to get a good gas-sealing.
Harder to get, when using a round ball, as you say, than one with a flat base.

Thanks for helping me

--------------------
Cheers all, Vegard_dino


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tinkerModerator
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Re: Roundballs in a 16Ga? [Re: vegard_dino]
      #133435 - 25/04/09 09:48 AM

Vegard-

With the cup-cards and donut-wads I show above, the components are working in favor of good gas seal.
That donut shaped felt wad wouldn't do it's trick with a flat-based bullet.

The roundball and this combination of column components might actually be a naturally more consistent load than a flat-based bullet load.


Making the cards and wads isn't much work.



Cheers
Tinker


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vegard_dino
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Re: Roundballs in a 16Ga? [Re: tinker]
      #133486 - 25/04/09 07:56 PM


Hi tinker

Thanks for the reply.

I understand what you mean. Did a lot of reading about black power, round balls. bore guns and so last night!

And, well, it may not be easy to get a good, accurate load in the first time, but with time, maybe I can find it. It sure do looks interesting.

But, with the round balls, is it any point in having a barrel like the old paradox guns did? Just to make it even more accurate? Or is that more useful with slug, paradox "bullets"?

Oh, the more I read, and the more reply´s I get, the more questions come to me.

Thanks for helping me and giving good information

--------------------
Cheers all, Vegard_dino


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tinkerModerator
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Re: Roundballs in a 16Ga? [Re: vegard_dino]
      #133502 - 26/04/09 01:35 AM

My senses say that the rifled choke of a paradox barrel will give a roundball an advantage.

I have never owned or shot a true paradox gun though, so let's wait for someone who actually done that to come along and answer that question.

In the meantime, keep reading around - perhaps that's been answered somewhere.
Do you have a copy of Greener's 'The Gun And It's Development'?
There may be good answers in there.



Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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DarylS
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Re: Roundballs in a 16Ga? [Re: tinker]
      #133504 - 26/04/09 02:37 AM

heree's a picture showing the loading as I suggested. As no one makes, to my knowledge, a proper shaped 'slug' for 16 bore smoothbores, round balls seem to be the answer. A flat based slug will not work in a smoothbore, unless it has a fairly long wad column attahced to it, to stear it straight ie: the shuttle-cock effect.

Note the wad colum system I employ with smokeless loads. With smokeless loads, the space between the ball and powder must be taken up with wads. The pink wad underneath the ball in this photo has the petals cut-off from a steel shot wad, which had a perfect 'cup' for holding the undersized ball in the centre of the bore. This type of loading is necessary for shotguns with chokes and seems to work best as well in cylinder bored guns as well.

On the left is the Lyman 525gr. .680" slug for use in any 12 bore - they also make a 385gr. for 20 bore. These slugs fit in normal shot cups, which hold the slug in the centre of the bore as it travels out the tube, then release it at the muzzle. The hollow base of the slug, makes the rear ligther than the nose, which helps stability, again - shuttle-cock effect for smoothbores. In rifled bores, this slug is said to shoot into 2" and even less at 50 yards.


--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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vegard_dino
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Reged: 05/03/09
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Re: Roundballs in a 16Ga? [Re: DarylS]
      #133661 - 27/04/09 09:56 PM


Hi Daryl_S

Thanks for the reply, good infor and photo. Yes, I like them , showing me what you all are talking about.

The modern slug now are fitted in a cup, so it stays in the center of the barrel, and it is these I have to find a way of doing with round balls.

Like thinker showed me. You use here the pink wad, cup, to hold the ball in center of the barrel.

Thanks for helping me

--------------------
Cheers all, Vegard_dino


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DarylS
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Re: Roundballs in a 16Ga? [Re: vegard_dino]
      #133669 - 27/04/09 11:11 PM

Pleasure, Vegard.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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DarylS
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Re: Roundballs in a 16Ga? [Re: vegard_dino]
      #136129 - 25/05/09 11:53 PM

Quote:


Hi Daryl_S

The modern slug now are fitted in a cup, so it stays in the center of the barrel, and it is these I have to find a way of doing with round balls.







Only the Lyman slug is designed this way for smoothbores as well as rifled shotguns. The other companies who make 'saboted slugs' which use a sort of shotcup, also use bullets that are only designed for rifled barrels. For a smoothbore, one must use a round ball, properly centred in the bore, or a slug designed for smoothbores, such as the Lyman.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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