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Ndumo
.300 member


Reged: 21/12/03
Posts: 230
Loc: Namibia
When is a leopard a trophy?
      #133011 - 21/04/09 09:29 PM

I am posting this here as I believ the people here would have a fairer opinion on the subject than the know it alls on some other forums.

I recently shot a cattle killing leopard female with a client, and although he was very happy with the hunt, he was sorely dissapointed with the weight of the cat. (45kg or 100lbs.)
The skull measured 14 inches, which is bigger than NQC (Namibian Ministry of Environment and Tourism's Quality control measurement) minimum by nearly an inch. After he saw the weight, he changed his tune, and wanted to hunt another "of real trophy size". He did the hunt for free, so I was happy to get him that specific cat.

My question is, what do you consider a trophy leopard? Is the weight that important? What about the skull, and the NQC minimums? Do you consider age, or the fact that this hunt was for a cattle killer at all? It was a real exciting hunt IMO, and I personally would have been happy with the end result.
I would like some thoughts from you guys, before I put up a picture of the leopard. (Maybe with the client's face blurred?)

--------------------
Karl Stumpfe
Ndumo Hunting Safaris (Pty) Ltd.
karl@huntingsafaris.net
www.huntingsafaris.net
+264 811 285 416

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Der_Jaeger
.375 member


Reged: 09/10/08
Posts: 607
Loc: SE Pennsylvania
Re: When is a leopard a trophy? [Re: Ndumo]
      #133012 - 21/04/09 09:48 PM

I have never shot a leopard and, therefore, speak with no experience, but, to me, any mature male leopard taken fairly would be considered a trophy in the same manner that any mature deer taken with a bow is considered a trophy. Just my opinion.

--------------------


Edited by Der_Jaeger (21/04/09 11:04 PM)

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lancaster
.470 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 8927
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: When is a leopard a trophy? [Re: Der_Jaeger]
      #133013 - 21/04/09 10:14 PM

dein jagdgast ist ein Idiot!!!

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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BNagel
.224 member


Reged: 21/03/09
Posts: 14
Loc: Clute, Texas
Re: When is a leopard a trophy? [Re: Der_Jaeger]
      #133014 - 21/04/09 10:14 PM

A trophy is defined by the individual. Sometimes it comes to comparison with other people's and what is important to the hunter may change. In which case he wants another one. Me? First I want one of (x) then I'll get pickier. Of course, if my "trophy" looks like a baby...

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Ndumo
.300 member


Reged: 21/12/03
Posts: 230
Loc: Namibia
Re: When is a leopard a trophy? [Re: BNagel]
      #133018 - 21/04/09 10:40 PM

Quote:

dein jagdgast ist ein Idiot!!!



I will reserve my comment, but...

--------------------
Karl Stumpfe
Ndumo Hunting Safaris (Pty) Ltd.
karl@huntingsafaris.net
www.huntingsafaris.net
+264 811 285 416

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rscott
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Reged: 21/03/08
Posts: 328
Loc: wyo., USA
Re: When is a leopard a trophy? [Re: Ndumo]
      #133020 - 21/04/09 10:52 PM

seems to me if the client knew the quarry was a cattle killer, should have been mentally prepared for every eventuality. was it sold as a trophy hunt or PAC?
i would be less than satisfied shooting a female leopard on a trophy hunt. (understatement)
either way, the client certainly made out like a bandit, but from your comments, i gather you subsidized the second leopard hunt?

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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: When is a leopard a trophy? [Re: lancaster]
      #133021 - 21/04/09 10:56 PM

Quote:

dein jagdgast ist ein Idiot!!!




would have to agree...

Think you have several issues to contend with for the average "hunter"...personally, for me to go after a livestock killer would be as great of a hunt as going after a 190 lb male...it is the experience more so for me that the actual take..but not so sure many would agree with that analogy...

Having said that, don't get me wrong..I like a nice big trophy as much as the next guy...but if I don't get that "huge" trophy...but was a great hunt..I would consider that to be a sucess...

I can speak of this as one leopard I shot, on the insistance of the PH, turned out to be a female...BIG mistake...and he was fined for it...but, looking back..we really did have a good hunt..unfortunately it ended in taking a female leopard which made both of us feel horrible...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: When is a leopard a trophy? [Re: Ripp]
      #133022 - 21/04/09 11:00 PM


"and what is important to the hunter may change."


Very true.

He knew what he was hunting, I think he is being unreasonable to you.

Bit like a PAC elephant ? you shoot what they tell you ?


Like the other poster, I'll get pickier when I have shot one !!!

Size to me is not the be all and end all like it is to some.
He has a good but different story to tell though over some other stories ???

Will now wait for pics.

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Ndumo
.300 member


Reged: 21/12/03
Posts: 230
Loc: Namibia
Re: When is a leopard a trophy? [Re: rscott]
      #133023 - 21/04/09 11:04 PM

This client hunted with us the previous year, and did not shoot a leopard, due to a number of factors. This included just plain bad luck, hounds chasing a leopard back to the park, the client cramping up and being unable to continue with a huge male leopard treed by the hounds, their agent booking them (against my judgement) on a 2x1 leopard hunt, etc. We also had a female leopard catching goats just about every second night, and he wanted to have a go at her, his partner (on the 2x1 hunt), who had first option, declined the female. So he had no problem with a female the previous year.
His agent and himself where full of the brown stuff because he did not get a shot at a cat, and did not want to pay a cent, not even dayfees. So they made the following deal with me at Reno-
He comes again, for free.
If he shoots a leopard, he only pays the normal trophy fee.
I do not know why I did it, but I agreed. So in effect, he paid (still waiting for the money BTW) only the trophy fee of one leopard, and no dayfees on 2 leopard hunts. (his friend did pay on the first hunt.)
Before the hunt, we clearly said to him it is a young male or a mature female. He was very happy with the hunt, and the cat, until we weighed it. Then it all of a sudden where not a trophy.

--------------------
Karl Stumpfe
Ndumo Hunting Safaris (Pty) Ltd.
karl@huntingsafaris.net
www.huntingsafaris.net
+264 811 285 416

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Der_Jaeger
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Reged: 09/10/08
Posts: 607
Loc: SE Pennsylvania
Re: When is a leopard a trophy? [Re: Ndumo]
      #133024 - 21/04/09 11:09 PM


Okay, now I'll join in with, "Dein Jagdgast ist eine idiot"!!!!

Er sollte von der Jagd verboten werden, auch!!

--------------------

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: When is a leopard a trophy? [Re: Ndumo]
      #133025 - 21/04/09 11:09 PM


Karl,

After reading that, I hate to say this, but sounds like a bit of a prick who keeps changing his mind and didling you out of your income.

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Ndumo
.300 member


Reged: 21/12/03
Posts: 230
Loc: Namibia
Re: When is a leopard a trophy? [Re: Ndumo]
      #133026 - 21/04/09 11:15 PM

Just to be clear, I have no intention to ridicule the client, or embarres him in any way, so have felt the need to hide his face.
Here is a pic of the cat. What do you think?




--------------------
Karl Stumpfe
Ndumo Hunting Safaris (Pty) Ltd.
karl@huntingsafaris.net
www.huntingsafaris.net
+264 811 285 416

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Kalunga
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Reged: 16/06/06
Posts: 328
Loc: Germany
Re: When is a leopard a trophy? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #133027 - 21/04/09 11:19 PM

It looks like some clients are no fun to hunt with, nothing is good enough for them, the trophy isn`t good until it is a SCI no.1 and, of course, it is either too hot or too cold during the hunt. This client should better buy a trophy somewhere and leave hunting to real hunters.

Kalunga

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Der_Jaeger
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Reged: 09/10/08
Posts: 607
Loc: SE Pennsylvania
Re: When is a leopard a trophy? [Re: Kalunga]
      #133028 - 21/04/09 11:23 PM


To me, that's a nice looking cat! Is that a muzzle brake on the clients little rifle? Good Lord!!

--------------------

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rscott
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Reged: 21/03/08
Posts: 328
Loc: wyo., USA
Re: When is a leopard a trophy? [Re: Ndumo]
      #133029 - 21/04/09 11:41 PM

sounds to me like you fulfilled your commitment the first hunt, then went out of your way to appease him the second go round. in my view, a fair minded person with character would have paid the daily fees for the first hunt.
his displeasure, even after you explained "it's either a young male or mature female", and the circumstances of the hunt, is unfounded.
some people just expect something for nothing these days!

hope you get the balance due!

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: When is a leopard a trophy? [Re: rscott]
      #133030 - 21/04/09 11:47 PM


Karl,

I'll repeat what has been said by Der Jaeger.


"Okay, now I'll join in with, "Dein Jagdgast ist eine IDIOT"!!!!"


Nice looking cat - I'd be more than happy with that as I reckon the fact it's a cattle killer and the hunt to get it would make a bit more of an interesting story than sitting in a hide.


BTW - I know you aren't ridiculing the client and I think you have gone about it the right way, getting opinions before posting the pic.

I think the fact that we all seem to be in agreeance that your client is a bit fussy or tight arsed

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xausa
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Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: When is a leopard a trophy? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #133032 - 22/04/09 12:06 AM

For me, the most important part of the hunt is the actual experience. The trophy is simply something concrete to attach the memory of that experience to. The size of the animal, the length of the horns, the number of points of the antlers, the weight of the tusks all pale in comparison to the recollection of a once in a lifetime opportunity successfully exploited, the unexpected opportunity taken advantage of, the perfect execution of a difficult shot.

That's what I think of when I look at the lesser kudu which hangs in my library, not the length of his horns (which missed the record book by an inch).

We were hunting for elephant, not kudu, and had given up for the day and were walking back to the hunting car, when one of the gunbearers stopped and pointed.

I can still see him, silhouetted against the evening sunset, with only his head and horns exposed. It was the shot of a lifetime, taken standing, unsupported, at 150 yards, aiming only at where I thought his body must be, and the flavor of that shot lingers still, almost 40 years later.

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peter
removed


Reged: 11/04/07
Posts: 1493
Loc: denmark
Re: When is a leopard a trophy? [Re: xausa]
      #133034 - 22/04/09 12:30 AM

karl

i hope you get better clients in the future, since you are conducting free range hunting you should have send him to SA on a canned lion hunt, i think it might have suited him better.

people i know and respect highly reccomend you above all else regarding leopard and that is a lot in my book.

just keep up the good work, when i get the money hopefully in 2010 i will love to be one of your clients.

i can only agree with the other statments that man is a bit wanting in the mental department

best regards

peter

edited to say that a leopard is a trophy when I deside to squese the trigger and bring it down.

Edited by peter (22/04/09 12:46 AM)

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Ndumo
.300 member


Reged: 21/12/03
Posts: 230
Loc: Namibia
Re: When is a leopard a trophy? [Re: peter]
      #133038 - 22/04/09 02:33 AM

Quote:


people i know and respect highly reccomend you above all else regarding leopard and that is a lot in my book.

just keep up the good work, when i get the money hopefully in 2010 i will love to be one of your clients.




Thanks for the complements Peter.

--------------------
Karl Stumpfe
Ndumo Hunting Safaris (Pty) Ltd.
karl@huntingsafaris.net
www.huntingsafaris.net
+264 811 285 416

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shakari
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Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: When is a leopard a trophy? [Re: peter]
      #133039 - 22/04/09 02:49 AM

If the hunt was sold to him as for a particular damage causing cat, (and stipulated as such in the contract) and he accepted the deal, then he has no right to bleat about the size or sex of the trophy...... He agreed to take that particular cat, so I fail to understand why he should be unhappy.

(FWIW) It's different in Tanzania where we're not allowed to take females and we have a minimum size requirement to comply with. To make sure there are no mistakes, I place two small pieces of reflective tape as sizing marks on the branch where the cat will be perched and I take a spotting scope into the blind with me. If I can't see his nuts, I don't let the client shoot........... but that isn't the case up there.

I've never done a hunt with hounds so can't comment but I guess it's a helluva lot easier to sex and size them that way........ bit tougher on the legs though!

It's always interesting how people vary on the trophy expectation front though. Most want the biggest available if possible but a year or two ago, I was hunting with a client and we had two Leopards feeding on two separate baits a few miles apart. I sat down with him and told him he had a choice of taking a monster that was a bit twitchy and would take another three or four days before he would be ready to shoot or he could take an average tom the next night....... I nearly fell over bckwards when he opted for the smaller cat.

I guess variety is the spice of life huh!

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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SharpsNitro
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Reged: 12/08/08
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Re: When is a leopard a trophy? [Re: Ndumo]
      #133041 - 22/04/09 03:12 AM

It looks like a nice leopard to me. Hearing the details, if I were in your place I would not have had further dealings with the man after his refusal to pay for the first hunt. Unless you guaranteed him a leopard the first hunt he had no right to withold payment. Hunting is a sport and you take your chances; sometimes you get your shot, sometimes you don't.

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shakari
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Reged: 09/02/03
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Re: When is a leopard a trophy? [Re: SharpsNitro]
      #133044 - 22/04/09 04:17 AM

You could also point out that for him to be 'deeply disappointed in the weight of the cat' simply displays his lack of knowledge of Leopards and Leopard hunting because a cat's weight can vary enormously dependent upon a number of factors such as when it last bred, general health, age and a number of other factors....... which is why all the record books gauge cat trophies on skull measurement alone.

The only people who make a big thing about weight are those that don't know much about the subject.

With all due respect to the client. If the trophy was an inch over the minimum, I don't see what he's complaining about.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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MKresinske
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Reged: 23/02/08
Posts: 65
Loc: NY, USA
Re: When is a leopard a trophy? [Re: shakari]
      #133049 - 22/04/09 04:42 AM

Once I pull the trigger it has become a trophy (To me). I think it is pretty simple. PH put client in front of a legal Leopard. Client shot Leopard. Let the celebration begin. If he was diappointed in the Leopard, he should have been disappointed in himself ! Not only did he get a beautiful Leopard, but also did a local farmer a service. Where do I sign up. Sounds like a wonderful time to me !

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
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Re: When is a leopard a trophy? [Re: MKresinske]
      #133050 - 22/04/09 04:51 AM

Quote:

Where do I sign up. Sounds like a wonderful time to me !




That's a good point.


The other thing is, what if you shoot a Leopard, and when you get it it has some mark on the skin, broken teeth or whatever.

Does that make it "NOT" a trophy or "NOT" THE Trophy YOU wanted ?

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lancaster
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Reged: 06/05/08
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Re: When is a leopard a trophy? [Re: shakari]
      #133052 - 22/04/09 04:55 AM

thats the way it goes, god days with god people and bad days with bad ...
waiting for better days coming back again. if I had the chance to hunt such a cattle killer or shot a 190 pounder that was simply on the wrong place will go to the first option in a heartbeat.
everyone who cant understand this isnt what I mean with "hunter". sorry, just my own opinion


its only a small step from No.3 to No.4, nothing against the man who shot the trophy of his lifetime


--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (22/04/09 04:58 AM)

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