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tino
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New Pedersoli Gibbs Afrcan Hunter .72 Rifle!
      #132017 - 11/04/09 03:28 AM

Hello,
my name is tiono iam a hunter from germany an want to buy me the new pedersoli rifle!i am a fan of safari rifles and think its a great gun?!ho have some good words for this rifle!?can i am hunting with it or is it only for the shooting range!?
Thanks!


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DarylSModerator
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Re: New Pedersoli Gibbs Afrcan Hunter .72 Rifle! [Re: tino]
      #132078 - 12/04/09 01:44 AM

Properly loaded, it will do for all game in Africa. This is a very nice rifle, well made and designed in the best English fashion and one I would be happy owning myself.

Do not even remotely consider shooting slugs or elongated bullets in it until you find the rifling twist rate. If it is faster than about 48", then is is designed for slugs & may have to be used with them. If it is 48" or slower, round balls will provide the best results- especially on game.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Kaimiloa
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Re: New Pedersoli Gibbs Afrcan Hunter .72 Rifle! [Re: tino]
      #132123 - 12/04/09 07:32 PM

Tino, you will find a lot of information relating to your question a few threads down on this same section of the Forum. See "Could the Pedersoli .72 double be successful on buffalo".

I just did some checking on the new Gibbs .72 Safari Rifle. The Dixie Gun Works catalog always has full information on such guns, including recommended load, rifling depth, twist rate, etc. Unfortunately, I did not find this rifle in the 2009 catalog. So a look at Pedersoli's website (www.davidepedersoli.com) gave a good bit of information.

This rifle uses the same barrel as the Pedersoli .72 double rifle I mentioned above. The barrel is a little longer at 29". Twist is the same at 1 turn in 75 inches, so the 1:86 twist rate in the other thread is in error. Both guns use a .715 round ball of 545 grains (as I recall). Some people have reported it is very hard to load when cast of wheel weights for hardness. This is because a lead alloy like WWs casts a somewhat lighter ball that is larger diameter than one of pure lead. Probably a mold meant to create .710 lead balls would cast about right to provide a .715 hard ball made of WWs. Others may know the size mould to order exactly.

The .72 double rifle weighs 10 1/3 pounds whereas the new Gibbs .72 weighs just 9 1/4 pound. It has the classic look of an English Sporting Rifle of the 1860-1880 period, which is ruined by putting modern looking sights on it. Or so it appears in the rather small picture at the website.

Pedersoli must have a bunch of Italian lawyers advising the loads for their guns, which are always LOW. They make their own high quality broached-rifling barrels as far as I know, and certainly must know that buyers are not going to shoot such a rifle at large game with some shotgun load like 80 gr. of B.P.

Having a Pedersoli Mortimer with custom .54 barrel myself and shooting it with 120 gr. 2F B.P. and a 585 gr. bullet gives quite a bit of recoil I assure you. It weighs 9.5 pounds, so a 4 dram load (110 gr.) of BP and the approximately 530 gr hard ball in the .72 Gibbs weighing 9 1/4 pounds would certainly provide similar recoil. I am not vouching for that load, just proposing it is likely one that would be used by some people.

You will get even better velocity in the .72 Gibb's 29" barrel than the .72 double rifle, so it should do well with even dangerous game - as described on the other thread. The key is to use hard balls.

Aloha, Ka'imiloa

--------------------
Few pleasures exceed restoring a nice old gun and returning it to shooting and hunting.


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Dphariss
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Re: New Pedersoli Gibbs Afrcan Hunter .72 Rifle! [Re: Kaimiloa]
      #132443 - 16/04/09 07:27 AM

I suspect that the Italian proof level my be the problem. It is likely the Italians consider 80 gr a service load and its proved to use that charge. The proof load for a 72 caliber using 180 grains of powder as a service load would be different I suspect. But I have no idea what the Italian proof laws are.
I suppose some research would give an idea of what the proof load is for this bore size.
IIRC historically the British had different loads for different classes of guns and a rifle would be proofed according to its "class". But I am not sure what the proof law was circa 1850.
If its stocked right 9-10 pounds will be OK hunting but will make shooting off the bench more "difficult" with 150-200 grains of powder.

Dan


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Kynoch
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Re: New Pedersoli Gibbs Afrcan Hunter .72 Rifle! [Re: Dphariss]
      #132600 - 17/04/09 02:15 PM

So what's the deal with the ramrod on these? I understand for the target model...but no ramrod for a hunting gun? How would you bring one with you on a hunt? (Oh, and no sling by the way either. Thought maybe you could use the ramrod you have to carry as a walking stick with the rifle slung over your shoulder.)

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szihn
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Re: New Pedersoli Gibbs Afrcan Hunter .72 Rifle! [Re: Kynoch]
      #132718 - 19/04/09 12:25 AM

What's the asking price on those rifles now?

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DarylSModerator
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Re: New Pedersoli Gibbs Afrcan Hunter .72 Rifle! [Re: szihn]
      #132747 - 19/04/09 10:29 AM

Yes- that's a good question, Steve. And did they put a proper bolster with operating fence on it?

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Otto
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Re: New Pedersoli Gibbs Afrcan Hunter .72 Rifle! [Re: DarylS]
      #148736 - 24/12/09 09:21 AM

I'd appreciate knowing if the .004" deep rifling that is used in the Pedersoli .72 cal barrels will shoot well with a patched round ball and hunting class charges of BP. All of the round ball barrels I know of that shoot well with heavy charges have grooves of .010" or even deeper. The Pedersoli barrels have an acceptably slow twist but I'm concerned about the shallow rifling.

Otto


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DarylSModerator
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Re: New Pedersoli Gibbs Afrcan Hunter .72 Rifle! [Re: Otto]
      #148742 - 24/12/09 11:02 AM

Either a 75" or 86" twist .004" deep rifling in the .72 will shoot just fine with most loads you are likely to shoot - if the load is tight enough. It usually takes someone of experience in muzzleloading shooting to be able to load the combination I am referring to. You cannot load a tight load in any Pedersoli rifle without re-crowning the muzzle. The edges are too sharp and need to be smoothed with emery cloth or paper. The end of your thumb is the correct shape for this - rotating your thumb shoved into the muzzle and rotating the barrel periodically to ensure your 'grinding' is symetrical.

This rifle sounds interesting and front and rear sights, if not screwed into the barrel, are easily replaced with good dovetailed sights and leave no trace Pedersoli origninally put stupid sights on it. Google "express sights" to find a good set. There are a number suppliers of a variety of sights. I suggest a standing sight with 1 or 2 leafs.

It takes a considerable quantity of powder to exceed about 12,000PSI in a 12 bore - most likely more than you'd want to fire in a 9 pound rifle. Now, what the Italian proofs for max charges are, I don't know. Any time you go above recommended charges, which guys I know do in the doubles, you are on your own.

WW balls only cast a thou or thou and 1/2 larger than pure lead. The reason they are difficult to load is they are toohard to engrave by the lands, and the grooves are very shallow, not giving much room for the cloth.

I would suggest a .705" to .710" mould from Jeff Tanner & you should be able to load both WW or pure lead balls from it with a .015" to .020" patch. I am suggesting the smaller ball due to the shallow rifling and the need for a thick enough patch to hold substancial lube for keeping the fouling soft. Panty material (thin) does not make good patch material, btw.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Otto
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Re: New Pedersoli Gibbs Afrcan Hunter .72 Rifle! [Re: DarylS]
      #148793 - 25/12/09 12:19 AM

Thank you,
Daryl. I was hoping you would share your considerable smarts on this
subject. I've looked on the Tanner website and wonder how his moulds
attach to the handles. Do they work best with one type of handle? i.e.,
Lyman, RCBS? Does one cut the sprue with side cutters?
Also, do you have similar info for the best ball/patch combination for
large bore unrifled...smooth...barrels? There's a 6 bore I. Hollis
caplock that needs shooting, but I've not had a clue regarding the ball
diameter/patch thickness combo that might shoot well. This Hollis is a
single shot...not double...and has rifle sights. I'm a fan of the
"wonderlube" type patch lube and have had best results in rifled
barrels with .020" patches and balls that are tight yet allow a second
shot to be loaded without a wet patch first. I'm completely
inexperienced with smooth bores shooting round balls.
BTW, pure lead balls have always killed like lightning for me.
Especially with larger bores, what advantage would there be to shooting
a hardened ball...e.g., WW? Velocity wise, my goal is to attain a
muzzle velocity that provides a trajectory which allows 100-125 yard
hits on the intended game. I've not been able to notice any increase in
terminal performance on game by using heavy charges with round balls. I
would probably be happy with a .72 cal RB at 1000-1100fps...for
elk/moose...with a pure lead ball. That velocity level should be
attainable with recoil that doesn't rattle your teeth and acceptable
fouling to allow a second reload in the field. Like most, I guess, I
started out trying for all the velocity possible. What I got was burnt
patches resulting in wild shots, usually with a big buck in my
sights...and so much fouling I had to pound down the next shot. When I
dropped velocity to 1200-1300 fps, groups shrank, game fell, and I
learned to ignore the puny energy figures my round balls were
achieving.
Otto


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Tatume
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Re: New Pedersoli Gibbs Afrcan Hunter .72 Rifle! [Re: Otto]
      #148795 - 25/12/09 01:41 AM

Otto,
Quote:

I've looked on the Tanner website and wonder how his moulds
attach to the handles.



I can help with this much. My Tanner mould works with RCBS handles.
Quote:

Does one cut the sprue with side cutters?



Yes, and then either file or peen the nub.

Take care, Tom

--------------------
Take care, Tom
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DarylSModerator
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Re: New Pedersoli Gibbs Afrcan Hunter .72 Rifle! [Re: Tatume]
      #148808 - 25/12/09 03:07 AM

For cutting the sprues, I use a pair of side cutters with the back ground down to almost flat meeting of the jaws. Snipping the spures off leaves a tiny raised spot that can be left, or as tom noted, filed off. The larger the balls, the easier they are to handle as to sprue triming. Too,you can use the plyer's type wire strippers, the ones with the little holes. By cutting close the sprue to the top of the ball, and twisting the ball, the sprue usually comes off quite clean and no further work is necesasry. Lost my wire strippers somewhere in the mess, so I'm using the gorund side cutters right now. Jeff told me he uses ground side cutters.

I'm using RCBS, Lyman and Saeco handles on my Tanner moulds- and I need more handles for the new ones.

For that smooth 6 bore - measure the bore size itself, then subtract .025" and that's the ball I'd use, with a .020" patch. So - for a .919" bore (true 6) I'd be ordering a.894" down to perhaps .890" mould.

I have not tried wonderlube for many years, although I've been told it will build up in the bore and grooves of a rifle and hurt accuracy & that is its difficult to remove when cleaning. For cold weather hunting, I use mink oil from Trackofthewolf. It allows unlimited shooting without having to wipe, when using normal hunting loads.

WW balls smash bone better than pure lead does, and I use them in my ctgs. for a fast second shot - if needed. My first shot is directed at the lungs, second is on the shoulder. The ball actually smashes the bone quite well, continuing on in a straight line, compared to a slug which usually glances on leg bones. I've not found a reason to harden a WW ball, as they are plenty hard by themselves. Be careful with clamp-on WW, that they don't have a 'Z' stamped on them. Those are zinc, which will destroy your melt's good casting properties and foul the pot. Glue or stick-on WW are almost pure lead and will soften a mix.

1,300fps is just fine for anything this side of the pond - from a big bore. In a well made 12 bore, 140gr. 2f would probably be my charge for moose, elk and bear. That means exits on most game, which I also like. They would be running up to perhaps 1,350fps, I think - depends on the powder and fit of ball and patch. For me, only snug loads work and those need a short starter. Once into the bore, and with a good lube, they go down easily. If fouling builds up, the patch and ball combo isn't good enough, or the lube is failing. Even spit will allow any charge your shoulder can handle, but of course, it isn't a hunting 'lube'.
The lower the velocity, the better judge of range you must be due to the arched trajectory. It is a wonderful thing to have a point blank range of 100 to 120 yards with a big bore, but you'll need 1,500fps to get it. Back in the late 70's my bro shot a moose at 95 yards with his Brown Bess, a .715" ball and .025" denim patch. The ball stopped underneath the hide on the off side after punching ribs on both sides. I still have that ball, quite flattened. His load, a piddling little charge of 100gr. 2F- for about 1,100fps. The hole through the lungs was about 2 1/2" in diameter - due to the shock wave ahead of the ball, no doubt.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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beleg2
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Re: New Pedersoli Gibbs Afrcan Hunter .72 Rifle! [Re: DarylS]
      #148888 - 26/12/09 03:15 AM

Tanner offer a sprue cutter.
Have anyone use them?
Martin


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DarylSModerator
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Re: New Pedersoli Gibbs Afrcan Hunter .72 Rifle! [Re: beleg2]
      #148889 - 26/12/09 03:32 AM

Tanner moulds do not have a sprue cutter. They fit normal Lyman or RCBS-type handles. I've had to remove a bit of metal from the inside surface of some handles, others, not. A few swipes of a file is all that's needed - sometimes.

The blocks come with screws for attachment.
I will edit to include a picture or two.


These are the wire strippers I use for cutting off the sprues. The white handled ones are the best, as they are flat on one side. I use the smallest hole for cutting and twist the cutter as I snip off the sprue. This leaves virtually no spure at all, allowing the ball to be loaded as it comes out of the bag, not having to orient the sprue as-is normal.

With WW balls, smacking the handle hinge pin a few times with a wooden dowel(I use a hickory hammer handle) usually breaks off the spure at the juncture of the ball, making later removal of the sprue not needed, but it does leave a tiny divot - which doesn't seem to make any difference in accuracy with large balls.

One further point about these 'special' moulds as well as all the rest of my moulds. I spray wthem with MS Moly, the bullet moly spray. This prevents lead from sticking to the moulds, allows Lee moulds to close. line up and lock-up perfectly. Rapine sells a mould prep which is a graphite solution that sticks to the mould and does a similar job. Hoppe's has a moly spray that works as well as the other two, but Birchwood Casey's wipes off easily and doesn't work well.


Edited by CptCurl (05/08/10 09:29 PM)


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beleg2
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Re: New Pedersoli Gibbs Afrcan Hunter .72 Rifle! [Re: DarylS]
      #148895 - 26/12/09 04:58 AM

Daryl,
I was talkimg about the sprue cutter pliers I saw at Tammers site for 6.-.

Thanks
Martin


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DarylSModerator
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Re: New Pedersoli Gibbs Afrcan Hunter .72 Rifle! [Re: beleg2]
      #149255 - 02/01/10 02:30 AM

When I talked with Jeff Tanner on the phone - or maybe it was an e-mail - don't remember, he told me he uses side cutters with the side ground off for trimming sprues. I used this same system last time I cast up some balls & it worked just fine - but I prefer the white handled wire strippers photo'd above.

I also use the wire stripers for pulling bullets from modern ammo. Run the case up through the hole in a press, grab the bullet with the stippers, then back the case down, which pulls the bullet. The flats of the stripper jaws stops perfectly across the top of the press. The pulled bullets have 2 little nicks (or 4) which make no difference in accuracy - even with tiny .172" bullets doing 4,000fps. Same sub -1/2MOA accurcy to 200 yards in testing.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Paul
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Re: New Pedersoli Gibbs Afrcan Hunter .72 Rifle! [Re: DarylS]
      #149320 - 02/01/10 10:00 PM

Quote:

Properly loaded, it will do for all game in Africa.




You might want to take two, though, and a loader ... and some brown trousers for each of you.


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DarylSModerator
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Re: New Pedersoli Gibbs Afrcan Hunter .72 Rifle! [Re: Paul]
      #150008 - 10/01/10 01:35 AM

deleted- moved to double thread

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (10/01/10 02:35 AM)


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DarylSModerator
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Re: New Pedersoli Gibbs Afrcan Hunter .72 Rifle! [Re: DarylS]
      #150019 - 10/01/10 02:24 AM


I do want to see some pictures of and reports on shooting the Gibbs, btw.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (10/01/10 02:35 AM)


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kuduae
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Re: New Pedersoli Gibbs Afrcan Hunter .72 Rifle! [Re: Dphariss]
      #163642 - 08/07/10 07:23 AM

Quote:

I suspect that the Italian proof level my be the problem. It is likely the Italians consider 80 gr a service load and its proved to use that charge. The proof load for a 72 caliber using 180 grains of powder as a service load would be different I suspect. But I have no idea what the Italian proof laws are.
I suppose some research would give an idea of what the proof load is for this bore size.
IIRC historically the British had different loads for different classes of guns and a rifle would be proofed according to its "class". But I am not sure what the proof law was circa 1850.
If its stocked right 9-10 pounds will be OK hunting but will make shooting off the bench more "difficult" with 150-200 grains of powder.

Dan



IMHO the Italians simply use the old 19th century tables for BP proof. The German 1891 tables f.i. prescribed an "ordinary service charge" of 88gr BP for a 13gauge bore diameter rifle. The final proof charge was 179gr.


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Huvius
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Re: New Pedersoli Gibbs Afrcan Hunter .72 Rifle! [Re: kuduae]
      #240287 - 08/01/14 04:46 AM

Circling back to this conversation because I have been pondering a large bore ML and... Dixiegun.com has lowered the price on the African Hunter to $1400.
I have been reading on the web about these guns and it sounds like there are mixed reports regarding actual rifling depth and resultant accuracy.
Anybody here get one in the last couple years?

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He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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DarylSModerator
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Re: New Pedersoli Gibbs Afrcan Hunter .72 Rifle! [Re: Huvius]
      #240290 - 08/01/14 05:46 AM

I'm interested in the answers to these questions as well.

One site I went to listed the rate of twist as 1 in 75" - perfect for round ball imho and not needing an absurd charge for decent accuracy, but capable of handling it if you are.

--------------------
Daryl


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DarylSModerator
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Re: New Pedersoli Gibbs Afrcan Hunter .72 Rifle! [Re: DarylS]
      #240295 - 08/01/14 06:25 AM

Just looked at it again (Pedersoli's pictures) - no rear sight - just a peep. It might be workable - if the hole is large enough and the sight doesn't stick into your forehead or eyeball upon recoiling. I feel one needs a barrel mounted sight - just my opinion.

If you look at it this way - Pedersoli rifles shoot well and have been shooting well for many years. My double .58 was case in point. Since it's a single barrel, regulation is not nor will be a problem. If the rifling is normal - I see it has 6 lands and grooves and it should be about .008" deep.

This one does look very nice!

I would not take the chance of 'shaking' (breaking) the stock by shooting slugs - they are not needed in a bore of that size. Samuel Baker's writings tell us that, of muzzleloaders.

A decently loaded round ball will give you all the recoil you want, I'm sure.

I find there are not a WHOLE lot of people who know how to load their rifles to get their best accuracy. Most people pick a patch material that is too thin - pick a charge rather than work one up and complain if they cannot hit what they want - or if the gun does not give them the accuracy they think it should.

Many more, pick a patch material - something wayyyyyyy too thin, ie: .015 or thinner - hankie or panty material- (the gusset might work - HA!) pick a load, ie; 60 or 80gr. and if they can hit the paper - they're happy.

I know you are not one of those people, but those might be the people you are reading.

All of the local guys my brother and I shoot and compete with are serious shooters with their ML's - all of them know about using a decent load (ball/patch) and working up loads or they use our suggested material for patches and a decent load and thus are getting decent accuracy. They all know about proper crowning and realize NO commercial maker crowns a barrel so they can load a decent load without cutting the patch.

All said - the parts and workmanship appear to be good. The nipple/fence/hammer relationship is perfect. BRAVO! about time!

I'm sure you can get it to shoot very well. I'm doubly sure it will shoot well given a re-crown and good combinations.

Quality parts alone needed to build a normal average Sporting rifle cost more than $1,000 CDN. Paying Pedersoli $400.00 for building it is not much for a decent ML hunting rifle in my opinion. I'm sure my brother or Steve Zihn would probably charge $4,500.00 for that rifle - maybe more.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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DarylSModerator
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Re: New Pedersoli Gibbs Afrcan Hunter .72 Rifle! [Re: DarylS]
      #240298 - 08/01/14 06:53 AM

Hmm- saw one fellow say the rifling was supposed to be .004". .004" is minimal and about useable with that rate of twist, however he says he measured it at .001" THAT is not usable imho.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Huvius
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Re: New Pedersoli Gibbs Afrcan Hunter .72 Rifle! [Re: DarylS]
      #240308 - 08/01/14 07:37 AM

Quote:

Hmm- saw one fellow say the rifling was supposed to be .004". .004" is minimal and about useable with that rate of twist, however he says he measured it at .001" THAT is not usable imho.




That is what I read as well.
Seems like you would be chasing your tail trying to get that shallow rifling to shoot.

I agree on the rear sight - not that it doesn't work, just that a barrel mounted sight would be more appropriate for the distances this gun is likely to be used for and look more correct to boot.

I have visions of a paper patched Foster slug in one of these but that notion may just be silly...

Funny thing... The price just went back up to $1750...

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