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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Lee Speed Forum & Archive

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Nailcreek
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Reged: 13/08/08
Posts: 150
Loc: Saukville, WI, USA
Indian Lee Sporter??
      #129590 - 15/03/09 05:01 AM

I've noticed that the Indians are still making Lee Sporters ... How can we actually get these in the country? Has anyone seen one up close and personal?

http://www.gunaccessory.com/IOF/315_rifle.htm


Kerry

--------------------
Veni, Vedici, Veggie ... I came, I saw, I had a salad.


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mehulkamdar
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Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: Indian Lee Sporter?? [Re: Nailcreek]
      #129599 - 15/03/09 06:36 AM

Unless you're the kind of guy who plays Russian roulette and enjoys it, don;t bother with buying one of the Indian Ordnance Factory pieces of sh1t. Far better to buy an action from these guys and build your own. Yes, they're .308s and not the classic 303s but if there were enough orders, I am sure that they could make whatever configuration of action you want, I guess. Their History page lists some new action designs for "sporting" rifles which I'm taking to refer to Lee Speed replicas.

I was born in India and I know exactly what crap comes out of the factories there.

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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Nailcreek
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Reged: 13/08/08
Posts: 150
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Re: Indian Lee Sporter?? [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #129602 - 15/03/09 07:01 AM

Thanks, Mehul. Can I ask about why you think IOF produces junk? I'm curious as I understood that they were making SMLE at least through the 1960s. Not baiting you, just very interested to know why.

--------------------
Veni, Vedici, Veggie ... I came, I saw, I had a salad.


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mehulkamdar
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Re: Indian Lee Sporter?? [Re: Nailcreek]
      #129625 - 15/03/09 12:06 PM

Nailcreek,

The Indian Ordnance Factories paint their guns instead of bluing them, one of many "shortcuts" that contribute to their products being as bad as they are. The 315 IOF rifles offer 15" groups at 100 yards and stocks that literally fall to pieces with use. The Lee Enfield action is virtually unjammable in use - again, unless it is made by the IOF. If you don't believe me, please ask about these rifles on any Indian shooting forum - there are a few of these. Or, look at some of the Ischapore 303 SMLEs which come up on sale every now and then for $ 75 or 80 in the US. There is a reason why they sell as cheap as that.

The reason why the IOF continued making the Enfields (they still do) is that they have never been able to produce anything better. They still use Cordite as a propellant in their cartridges and have a plant in the Nilgiris at Aruvankadu manufacturing this. Don't you think that they should have modernized at least the propellants that they use in their ammunition? According to them, they now have ISO 9001-2000 certification for their cordite manufacturing process.

Not being hostile at all but I do think that the shoddiness that has become a part of Indian Ordnance Factory gunmaking is a danger to shooters and that is why I personally believe that their products are no good for any use other than as wallhangers. I hope you understand my point.

Best wishes and good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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Story
.333 member


Reged: 15/10/08
Posts: 262
Loc: SE PA, USA
Re: Indian Lee Sporter?? [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #130033 - 20/03/09 12:36 AM

Quote:

Or, look at some of the Ischapore 303 SMLEs which come up on sale every now and then for $ 75 or 80 in the US. There is a reason why they sell as cheap as that.




I'm sorry, I have to throw the flag on this statement.

If you're referring to hand-made 'Khyber Pass' junk copies of Enfields that have appeared on the U.S. market in the last few years, those come from Darra, Pakistan - NOT Ishapore.

If you're referring to the post-Independence (1947 onwards) surplus Enfield copies in .303 and 7.62NATO made by the arsenal at Ishapore, they were originally sold for $75/80 several years ago simply due to volume. They now command at least twice that and there's nothing wrong with the quality of the rifles, they've just been subjected to wear and tear commensurate with service as first and then second line weapons.


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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3475
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Indian Lee Sporter?? [Re: Story]
      #130081 - 20/03/09 11:36 AM

I own a rather nice Churchill .303 Lee Enfield sporter on a 1945 Ishapore action. The metal-work is rather spartan, embellishment consisting solely of a sheet-metal foresight ramp and a silver-lined shallow vee modification to the military rear sight, however the stock is a nice 1950/60s-style restrained monte-carlo with ebony tip and white-line spacers. It is well-finished overall and is very comfortable to shoot offhand.

The rifle shows no hint of the 'shortcuts' or compromised quality mentioned above.

Knowing this, I would be reluctant to kiss-off an Ishapore sporter without a second look.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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mehulkamdar
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Reged: 09/01/04
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Re: Indian Lee Sporter?? [Re: Story]
      #130111 - 20/03/09 11:29 PM

Story,

You certainly have different standards for "quality" than most even in India do. If you're willing to pay more for Ischapore (now Indianized to spell "Ishapur" and later rifles are marked with this spelling) then it is your money.

For someone who wants an Enfield rifle there are vastly better options available than the junk that comes out from India. Indians pay significantly more for old junk (the import of firearms has been banned over there since 1984) than they do for the IOF 315 rifles because they know what they are worth.

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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mehulkamdar
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Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
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Re: Indian Lee Sporter?? [Re: Marrakai]
      #130112 - 20/03/09 11:33 PM

Marrakai,

Until 1947 India was a British colony and quality was, let us say, defined differently than it was afterwards. A lot of the SMLEs (and some No 4s) used by the British were made in India when they were being bombed by the GErmans in WW-2.

Subsequent Indian production manufactured under Indian supervision lacks the quality that earlier guns had - significantly.

Again, if someone wants to spend their money on guns that Indians themselves don't, it's their money.

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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Story
.333 member


Reged: 15/10/08
Posts: 262
Loc: SE PA, USA
Re: Indian Lee Sporter?? [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #130609 - 27/03/09 09:33 AM

Fair enough. I own six .303 rifles that came out of that arsenal, from a 1909 BSA rebuilt in 1919 to one fabricated in 1966. Most of them, I have no problem putting 174gr ball in the black at 100 m.
If you see any more at $80@, PM me.


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mehulkamdar
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Reged: 09/01/04
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Re: Indian Lee Sporter?? [Re: Story]
      #130634 - 27/03/09 01:49 PM

Do a tour of the gun shows in Northern Illinois. They are always available. I haven't seen any of them ever get sold. The same junk comes up show after show with the same sellers in these parts.

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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Story
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Reged: 15/10/08
Posts: 262
Loc: SE PA, USA
Re: Indian Lee Sporter?? [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #130946 - 31/03/09 05:24 AM

The only SMLE type weapons I've seen at shows in Pennsylvania, Maryland and Virginia for $80 - 90 where Khyber Pass copies, which are excreable abortions of pallet wood for stocks and train rails for receivers. Unsporterized Ishapores continue to hover around twice that sum, and are noticably different.

This page on the Khyber copies of the Martini is a good primer on what to look out for with the Darra-made copies of the Enfield. http://www.martinihenry.com/khyberpage.html


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mehulkamdar
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Re: Indian Lee Sporter?? [Re: Story]
      #130951 - 31/03/09 06:11 AM

It surely can't cost all that much to visit Illinois from Pennsylvania and to get a local dealer to do an FFL transfer to wherever you want in the country. DO come and check this plkace out.

BTW I do have more than a little experience with Ischapore SMLEs and also their equally crappy FALs - high school students in the National Cadet Corps in India get to learn to shoot on them.

I am happy to have standards of quality that are different from yours - you are welcome to your views and to praise the Ischapore stuff to the skies if you wish to. The fact is that you won't find a majority of Indians themselves agreeing with you.

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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Kiki
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Reged: 03/06/08
Posts: 1
Loc: India
Re: Indian Lee Sporter?? [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #131047 - 01/04/09 06:42 AM

I see a couple of very satisfied IOF product users here,who aren’t really convinced by your arguments,even though you continue to badger the IOF and it’s offerings.

Sure there is always room for improving quality especially of the civilian fire arms that the IOF produces,but then the IOF largely caters to the Indian Armed Forces,who for the most part have no issues with the quality of the arms or the ammunition,this I say from experience having been a part of them.


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mehulkamdar
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Re: Indian Lee Sporter?? [Re: Kiki]
      #131050 - 01/04/09 07:29 AM

Quote:

the IOF largely caters to the Indian Armed Forces,who for the most part have no issues with the quality of the arms or the ammunition,this I say from experience having been a part of them.




So what choice did you have other than to use their crap?

Oh yeah, every other gunmaker in the world needs to shake in their shoes because the IOF sells its rifles in competition with them. I'm sure you could point one of them at a target and drop it without as much as pulling the trigger.

You're welcome to worship the IOF and to sing paeans to its greatness. There are also flat-earth societies which claim that they are the only ones who know the "truth."

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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navigrewal
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Reged: 10/02/06
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Re: Indian Lee Sporter?? [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #131328 - 03/04/09 03:21 PM

Leaving aside the jingoism IOF leaves lot to be desired for guns, pistols and ammo they manufacture cannot comment on Tanks and big guns. On a recent trip to India had an interesting conversation with an Indian Army Infantry Lt. Col. His choice of guns kind of explains the downward graph of IOF gun quality, his first choice of weapon is the AK 47 variant ( gun and ammo both imported and are reliable), followed by 7.62mm FAL ( phased out now) and then INSAS 5.56 gun. When asked about side weapon a pistol, his take was even though copy of Browning is decent ( few were sold in US and remark on it workmanship was “machined by drunken monkey”) the quality of 9mm ammo is horrendous. Because of which most of the Indian officers don’t think pistols are reliable neither are they trained as much on firing pistols. I had a similar experience when firing a Glock issued to a Police officer, my every second bullet misfired and this was a fresh lot of ammo and its considered normal!

A US Marine who participated in Joint exercises with Indian army in Goa also echoed the same remarks about the INSAS as the officer above, starting with the ridiculous plastic magazine and the plastic toy feels it gives. Col’s opinion was that on a range every gun would shoot about the same its in the field that INSAS fails the muster. India has already picked up Travor the Israeli rifle ( jury is out on this gun) for the special units then again one reads about SIG assault rifles being bought for National Security Guard units!

There is another reason why the quality of guns is deteriorating, earlier officers were not paper tigers but were war veterans and back then most of the officials and also public knew their guns quite well. Unlike the current set of players where officers have much less leverage, its absurd that India would purchase the best arty, tanks and jets out there yet couldn’t even procure or guarantee decent rifles and kits for grunts or jawans the back bone of the forces.

The quality of earlier guns manufactured was remarkably decent, I remember a gent from Montana who had made a scout gun from an Ishapore 7.62 Lee rifle and was quite content. I cannot locate the article but during earlier Afghan war some dealers bought huge quantity of Ishapore 7.62 Lee rifles and ammo the embarrassingly for India the shipment was then routed to Afghans for use against the Soviets.

All said and done its high time India privatizes their defense industry starting with the guns. The malaise is due to the monopoly IOF enjoys and the draconian anti gun laws. No wonder one of our gun nut friend recommends tractor wheel bench rest testing for IOF .315 rifle. This entails tying the gun to a tractor wheel and then pulling the trigger with a string!



Best

Edited by navigrewal (03/04/09 03:40 PM)


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mehulkamdar
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Reged: 09/01/04
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Re: Indian Lee Sporter?? [Re: navigrewal]
      #131412 - 04/04/09 10:40 AM

Navdeep,

The lousy ammo is almost certainly because the IOF in its infinite wisdom continues to load the rounds with cordite even now, some fifty years after the rest of the world consigned cordite to the dustbin. They claim that the Ooty Cordite plant has ISO 9001-2000 certification, whatever that may mean from a quality viewpoint.

I find it incredible that there are always chest thumpers out to defend the third rate quality of IOF junk no matter that it is a disgrace to India's name to begin with. There is a pressing need to modernize the small arms industry in India, but, unfortunately, there will always be nameless and faceless posters on internet forums claiming to have been soldiers or Field Marshalls or whatever talking out of their hats to praise something that is essentially disgraceful.

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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dons
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Re: Indian Lee Sporter?? [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #131421 - 04/04/09 11:40 AM

Mehul my friend, tell us how you really feel about IOF.

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