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tarawa
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.577 BPE vs 20ga. RBL Professional
      #131253 - 03/04/09 02:25 AM

I know this is like comparing apples to oranges, but with all this talk lately about those old .577 BPE rifles, my interest has really been stirred up. That is until I checked the prices of those old beauties...especially the Alexander Henrys. A friend of mine said that if he were buying a double, he would get one of the newer express rifles instead of an older BPE. He does have credibilty, since he hunts in Africa and Australia about every other year. He also mentioned that a friend of his was one of the first to order one of the RBL Professionals and it may be a good choice for me.
Now I am going to ask the owners of the .577 BPEs if a 20 gauge slug gun compares with a .577 BPE? Maybe a dumb question, but economics willl be the driving force here for me.
Thanks in advance.

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Yukon577
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Re: .577 BPE vs 20ga. RBL Professional [Re: tarawa]
      #131261 - 03/04/09 02:47 AM

A 20 Ga. slug generally weighs 260 grains, I don't see much of a comparison.

That is a nice looking double shotgun though and would be great for deer hunting close in.

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tarawa
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Re: .577 BPE vs 20ga. RBL Professional [Re: Yukon577]
      #131263 - 03/04/09 03:14 AM

I believe the Dixie hardened 20 gauge paradox style slugs weighs about 328 grains (.750 ounces).

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Yukon577
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Re: .577 BPE vs 20ga. RBL Professional [Re: tarawa]
      #131269 - 03/04/09 04:19 AM

Sure, I see it's usefulness. But 20 bore is awefully wide for that weight meaning it would have no density at all so penetration would be very poor. In my opinion it would not compare well to a 650 grain bullet. But I think it could be great for hunting medium size game and as you mention, the cost is far more affordable than most .577 double rifles. I am sure it would be fun to load for and shoot, but I would not compare it to the .577 rifles, only speaking for myself.

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gatsby
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Re: .577 BPE vs 20ga. RBL Professional [Re: tarawa]
      #131270 - 03/04/09 04:39 AM

A Westley Fauneta 20 gauge slug weighs 425gr and is shot with a velocity of 1500fps. A lot of pop but not in the same class as a 577bpe. Save your money find a nice 577, you won't regret it.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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peter
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Re: .577 BPE vs 20ga. RBL Professional [Re: gatsby]
      #131276 - 03/04/09 05:53 AM

apples and oranges.

what you are comparing is in english terms a 20 bore shot and ball gun against a full bore rifle(577)
allthough it is fully rifled, the load is still a anemic shotgun round and not the 20 bore rifle rounds of the old days. difference in loading would be 1 drams(shotgun) to 4 drams(rifle) of black powder.

RBL Professionals make what looks like a nice gun, but it is just a rifled shotgun(i love and own those btw.) dont take it after anything more serious than pigs, even with dixie slugs(whose claims i highly doubt) remember that the gun is regulated for a specific load and changing any components may make it shoot way off.

IF RBL wants to play ball, get them to regulate it with a 4 drams BP behind a hard round ball and then you are into another playing field. then the gun should way about 9 to 10 pounds as well for you to shoot it with out getting tossed all over the place.

there is no easy or cheap way about getting a good bore gun that i know of, if there were i would tell everybody that i know.

best regards

peter

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tarawa
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Re: .577 BPE vs 20ga. RBL Professional [Re: peter]
      #131278 - 03/04/09 06:15 AM

I knew that I would get great responses from you guys. I will be emptying out my gun safe to get the funds and make the room for a nice old big bore double! This is the answer that I wanted...thanks to looking down the barrels of Yukon's Jeffrey and CptCurl's Alexander Henry!
How would a Lyon & Lyon .577 3" BPE stack up?

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peter
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Re: .577 BPE vs 20ga. RBL Professional [Re: tarawa]
      #131279 - 03/04/09 06:20 AM

if the gun checks out ok, then it would be very good for you

peter

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: .577 BPE vs 20ga. RBL Professional [Re: peter]
      #131302 - 03/04/09 07:58 AM

I agree with what has been said above. The RBL 20b is no match for a .577BPE. My Henry shoots a 560grain lead bullet at about 1700 fps. That's a lot of whallop and penetration.

The RBL has a really fast twist. I have seen the twist quoted, but I don't recall now. I think it's less than 20" and designed for a sabot slug. You end up with a light, sub-caliber projectile. Not a big 58 caliber hunk of lead.

Just totally different.

Monty Whitley has a .577BPE at a fairly reasonable price. It's seen some hard use, but may be a good rifle.

http://www.montywhitley.com/antique_arms_fine_sporting_guns/double_rifles/1666

Under $10k is getting low for a .577.

bonanza just bought a nice .577BPE and is getting to know it.

Good luck with your search.

Curl

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JPK
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Re: .577 BPE vs 20ga. RBL Professional [Re: CptCurl]
      #131315 - 03/04/09 12:37 PM

I have to say that any benefit the 577 BPE may have is moot unless you are hunting something beyond elk. Yes, the recipe for greater penetration is there, but how much do you need?

With the adjustable regulation of the CSMC PH, you can load the hardened paradox style "bullets" made by dixie or the WR style (cast you own) bullets, for enhanced penetration over the typical 2 3/4" hull, expanding sabot slug of ~260grs.

I don't think you'd find the ~260gr peremium sabot slugs giving to little penetration for the lower US. And you can go to you're local gun shot, or Wally mart and buy a box of sabot slugs, say the Winchester Partition Gold loading at 1900fps, and without hesitation, use it on anything in the lower US. Likewise Federal's Barnes sabot slug loading.

JPK

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SharpsNitro
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Re: .577 BPE vs 20ga. RBL Professional [Re: tarawa]
      #131370 - 04/04/09 02:57 AM

Quote:

...
How would a Lyon & Lyon .577 3" BPE stack up?



I may have seen the gun you are talking about. At the time I didn't look at it too closely but you should be able to get a good price with a little haggling.

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DarylS
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Re: .577 BPE vs 20ga. RBL Professional [Re: SharpsNitro]
      #131373 - 04/04/09 03:17 AM

Curl is right - the 20 has fast twists meant for light weight .50 cal bullets in sabots - no comparrison.

Now, for pure smash, it might be a tossup between the .577BPE and a .725" RB at 10 to 20 yards, providing the RB had a descent load behind it, like 7 drams and up. In this case, the 12 bore RB's size would make up for slightly lighter weight and 100fps lower velocity, which is nothing. The .577, if hardened, might outepenetrate the hardened ball, but through and through is about all that's needed- generally.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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JPK
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Re: .577 BPE vs 20ga. RBL Professional [Re: DarylS]
      #131380 - 04/04/09 05:25 AM

Daryl,

The CSMC PH rifled slug gun is only available in 20ga.

The (relatively) fast twist would also work well for full bore diameter Paradox/Faunetta type projectiles, and the gun's regulation is adjustable.

JPK

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JPK
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Re: .577 BPE vs 20ga. RBL Professional [Re: CptCurl]
      #131384 - 04/04/09 06:13 AM

Quote:

The RBL has a really fast twist. I have seen the twist quoted, but I don't recall now. I think it's less than 20" and designed for a sabot slug.
Curl



Curl, see this quote from the previous thread, from someone who checked with CSMC: "The rifling twist is 1-24". Same as Hastings and Verney Carron use in there slug gun barrels."

JPK

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bonanza
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Re: .577 BPE vs 20ga. RBL Professional [Re: tarawa]
      #131392 - 04/04/09 08:30 AM

Tarawa,

Do you have a double rifle?

If "big bore" is on your mind at a budget, look no further than the awesome Pedersoli .72" muzzle loader.

A bunch of us have one - if only to have a truly massive rifle.

Champlins has had an H&H 500 BPE for a while. I think you could sweet talk George down to $10k,

I don't know about you, but the chance to own a Holland and Holland for $10k - in a very useful cartridge - is once in a lifetime.

B.

--------------------


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mehulkamdar
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Re: .577 BPE vs 20ga. RBL Professional [Re: tarawa]
      #131408 - 04/04/09 10:28 AM

Tarawa,

Tony Galazan has a real double rifle ready for launch in 470 and 500 NE though that would, of course, be something for a dedicated African or Australian hunter. At the other send of the spectrum he recently announced a miniature 22 lr double rifle.

Good hunting!

--------------------
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DarylS
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Re: .577 BPE vs 20ga. RBL Professional [Re: JPK]
      #131418 - 04/04/09 11:27 AM

JPK- I am aware it is sold in 20 bore only. The twist is a bit fast for any bore sized projectile you could shoot above about 1,000fps - just a guess. Of course, that depends on what you'd call accuracy and stability. Some people are a happy with results I won't tolerate.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Caprivi
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Re: .577 BPE vs 20ga. RBL Professional [Re: DarylS]
      #131426 - 04/04/09 12:06 PM

Amazing how much (mis)information there is on the RBL when not a one has been shipped yet......Makes you wonder.


If it is of the same quality that has been the corner stone of any Galazan project in the past, I would take the RBL in a second over a .577bpe. No question. Brand new todays technology vs. unknown wear, tear, use, abuse, metalurgy, regulation, future parts, future ammo................no thanks.

Just a few observations, from what i have read and what I have been told by Tony........

1. the RBL has an adjustable regulation feature, not pretty and surely not all encompassing, but some flexiblity.

2. it has a 1-24 twist......gee sounds the same as the twist of a .577bpe.....maybe it would stabilize the same weight and size bullets, just a guess. I am willing to bet that when mine shows up it will handle RB's Fosbery style, big ugly Minies, brenneke's, Plastik's, Lyman Key-Lok and sabots all just well enough for me. Probably try some shot in it to as we all know that won't work.
I shoot RB's in a 1-24" .50 cal ML at about 1400fps. They don't yaw, tumble, strip, blah..blah...blah or anything. Just hit near where the sights where when the cap went bang. Of course only when I manage my part, which is rare.

3. it will probably fit you as it will have "normal" stock spec's. A vintage gun could have most any abomination of stocking.

4. it will be built for YOU. You pick the specs. Go to Bond Street and try that for a starting price of 4000.00

5. scope mounts that are not horrid.




The U.S.A. is a changing place. Gun laws today are very different than they where in the past and they will be drastically different in the very near future. You all can huff and puff and think we will fight and win. We will be very lucky to stop it at a near dragonian copy of the rest of the "civilized" world.

Have that new RBL fitted with a 2nd set of 20ga barrels and it will still be 1 gun on the new gun registery and with some luck it will only count as a shotgun with 2 barrels freeing up a place for a rifle.



JMNTBHO.

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JPK
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Re: .577 BPE vs 20ga. RBL Professional [Re: DarylS]
      #131442 - 04/04/09 02:58 PM

Quote:

JPK- I am aware it is sold in 20 bore only. The twist is a bit fast for any bore sized projectile you could shoot above about 1,000fps - just a guess. Of course, that depends on what you'd call accuracy and stability. Some people are a happy with results I won't tolerate.



If you knew the PH was 20ga only, then why the discussion of 12ga round balls, eh?

An overstabilized bullet will shoot anywhere from excellent to good, its the understabilized bullets that give real trouble. There will be no stripping with either sabots or hardened lead projectiles, or even reasonably heavy soft lead bullets, at any velocity the PH can reasonably muster. Try this for an excellent assessment of overstabilization, "Over-stabilization as a result of a too-fast twist rate can occur, resulting in a bullet that travels along its downward arc with its tip pointing skyward, exacerbating wind drift and hastening velocity loss. Ideally, the tip of a properly stabilized bullet should tip downward as the bullet begins its downward arc. Clearly, an over-stabilized bullet is not conducive to accuracy, but it is only noticeable in extreme cases of over-stabilization and at very long range. You'd never notice it at hunting distances."

I'll repeat the important part, "...it is only noticable in extreme cases and at very long range. You'd never notice it at hunting distances."

I'll add that as bullet length increases, so does the need for twist. Since some of these bullets weigh close to 1.5 times or so what a round ball would weighs and have hollow bases, making them that much longer, I'm not too sure that the heavier full groove diameter bullets would be much over stabilized at all. (But can't find length dimensions on any of them.)

BTW, if your demands for accuracy are so great, just how is it that you can live with the built in deltas in pressure and velocity inherent in any black powder rifle?

As ussual, all wind.

JPK

Edited by JPK (04/04/09 03:23 PM)

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gatsby
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Re: .577 BPE vs 20ga. RBL Professional [Re: JPK]
      #131454 - 04/04/09 07:29 PM

Going back to the original post, this really is like comparing apples to oranges. If you want an economical well made double, good for small to medium game with loaded ammo available then the 20 gauge RBL looks to be a pretty good choice.
The 577BPE will cost more to get into but you will be able to get every penny back and probably much more when you recycle it. Buying used the gun will not fit you perfectly but you will have a pride of ownership of a weapon built by arguably the best craftsman to ever put purpose to wood and steel. You will have to craft your own ammo but that will only add to the satisfaction of owning and using a piece of history. You will not only be able to use the gun on small and medium game but properly loaded, DG as well.
Well, which do you like apples or oranges?

--------------------
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DarylS
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Re: .577 BPE vs 20ga. RBL Professional [Re: JPK]
      #131474 - 05/04/09 02:06 AM

Quote:

Quote:

JPK- I am aware it is sold in 20 bore only. The twist is a bit fast for any bore sized projectile you could shoot above about 1,000fps - just a guess. Of course, that depends on what you'd call accuracy and stability. Some people are a happy with results I won't tolerate.



If you knew the PH was 20ga only, then why the discussion of 12ga round balls, eh?

An overstabilized bullet will shoot anywhere from excellent to good, its the understabilized bullets that give real trouble. There will be no stripping with either sabots or hardened lead projectiles, or even reasonably heavy soft lead bullets, at any velocity the PH can reasonably muster. Try this for an excellent assessment of overstabilization, "Over-stabilization as a result of a too-fast twist rate can occur, resulting in a bullet that travels along its downward arc with its tip pointing skyward, exacerbating wind drift and hastening velocity loss. Ideally, the tip of a properly stabilized bullet should tip downward as the bullet begins its downward arc. Clearly, an over-stabilized bullet is not conducive to accuracy, but it is only noticeable in extreme cases of over-stabilization and at very long range. You'd never notice it at hunting distances."

I'll repeat the important part, "...it is only noticable in extreme cases and at very long range. You'd never notice it at hunting distances."

I'll add that as bullet length increases, so does the need for twist. Since some of these bullets weigh close to 1.5 times or so what a round ball would weighs and have hollow bases, making them that much longer, I'm not too sure that the heavier full groove diameter bullets would be much over stabilized at all. (But can't find length dimensions on any of them.)

BTW, if your demands for accuracy are so great, just how is it that you can live with the built in deltas in pressure and velocity inherent in any black powder rifle?

As ussual, all wind.

JPK



Could be - didn't know it was a 24" twist - could be OK. note sure how it will handle 700gr. bullets - does the mfgr's warrant this size? From what I read on it, it is for the sabots and small .50 cal bullets. This is all we have to go on and .50 cal doesn't cut it in comparrison to .577. I mentioned the 12 as it's a better choice than a 'little' .20 - off topic I guess - oh well.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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tarawa
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Re: .577 BPE vs 20ga. RBL Professional [Re: bonanza]
      #131494 - 05/04/09 05:14 AM

Quote:

Tarawa,

Do you have a double rifle?

If "big bore" is on your mind at a budget, look no further than the awesome Pedersoli .72" muzzle loader.

A bunch of us have one - if only to have a truly massive rifle.

Champlins has had an H&H 500 BPE for a while. I think you could sweet talk George down to $10k,

I don't know about you, but the chance to own a Holland and Holland for $10k - in a very useful cartridge - is once in a lifetime.

B.




Bonanza,
I have a "virgin" Kodiak .72 and Kodiak .58 in the safe, along with a few (3) Baikal 30-06s. I would really like to have a vintage cartridge big bore. Maybe one that has been there and done that!
I have been collecting militaria for many years and it is time to move on up. I will sell off the dust collectors and aquire one good dust collector.
George

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JPK
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Re: .577 BPE vs 20ga. RBL Professional [Re: DarylS]
      #131514 - 05/04/09 01:30 PM

Quote:

Could be - didn't know it was a 24" twist - could be OK. note sure how it will handle 700gr. bullets - does the mfgr's warrant this size? From what I read on it, it is for the sabots and small .50 cal bullets. This is all we have to go on and .50 cal doesn't cut it in comparrison to .577. I mentioned the 12 as it's a better choice than a 'little' .20 - off topic I guess - oh well.



How heavy a bullet is, alone, irrelevant to pressure or demand on the gun. Faunetta other Fosberry types run to ~525grs, which would be more than sufficient and that would be ~1.5x RB, plus at least some had hollow bases, making them long for weight.

What are you looking to use a 577 BPE for? Or what would you be looking to use a 12ga round ball rifle for?

Neither a 500 BPE nor the 20ga sabot slugs are short anything for the lower 48. And certainly not the 20ga shooting Fosberry types or probably even round balls.

The only NA critters I can figure where a 577 BPE or 12ga round ball rifle has an advantage over a 500 BPE or 20ga shooting either sabots or Fosberry types is brown bear and Yukon moose. And then, there are much better coices.

JPK

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DarylS
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Re: .577 BPE vs 20ga. RBL Professional [Re: tarawa]
      #131561 - 06/04/09 01:24 AM

Quote:

I know this is like comparing apples to oranges, but with all this talk lately about those old .577 BPE rifles, my interest has really been stirred up. He does have credibilty, since he hunts in Africa and Australia about every other year. He also mentioned that a friend of his was one of the first to order one of the RBL Professionals and it may be a good choice for me.
Now I am going to ask the owners of the .577 BPEs if a 20 gauge slug gun compares with a .577 BPE? Maybe a dumb question, but economics willl be the driving force here for me.
Thanks in advance.



Very loose parameters - Africa was mentioned as was Australia - no mention of North Amercian game - RBL says to use sabots seems to me - that means undersized bullets. Nothing said about specific bullets - so was ore of an open question to start with - dumb question? - maybe not - but nothing specific and open to wide range of varrying opinions - some opinions were not acceptable, obviously. so- dumb question

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Yukon577
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Re: .577 BPE vs 20ga. RBL Professional [Re: DarylS]
      #131694 - 07/04/09 09:29 AM

Hi JPK,
I get to hunt Yukon moose and grizzly and black bears quite a lot, having them in my yard at times. I have shot my share of them with a lot of different guns and watched even more shot. I cannot think of anthing that would have much of an advantage on a .577 BPE for big moose or bears. When I was searching for a double rifle for hunting these animals my choice of calibers was first; a .500 NE., second; a .470 NE., and third a .577 BPE or NE. Of course price and availability was more the deciding factor, but I was sure not feeling like I was settling when I found my .577 BPE. I think a good .450 NE. would be great too and also a .500 BPE and similar rounds. The 20 ga. was never on my list.
My friend has a lovely original Westley Richards 12ga. percussion double rifle. I sure would like to see that used on our big moose or bears some day too. In close it should be quite adequate. I have heard of moose taken with 12ga. slugs but not 20ga. I am sure it could be done but it's not a popular choice. There are more 12ga. carried for bear defense than anything else, I have heard of the odd 20ga. usually for a lady or someone with an injury or similar. When you see grizzles walking around your first thought is not, " I could get by with a small gun". They are likely fine, but why take a chance?

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