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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Single Shots & Combination Guns
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ellenbr
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Loc: North Alabama
Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360 [Re: GroovyMike]
      #163524 - 07/07/10 02:48 AM

It looks like the rifled tube was proofed twice. There looks to be an "8.9" stamp near the lower ribe and then an "8.8" stamp closer to the intertwined "EL" proofmark. There's also an "Express" stamp so I'd guess 360 BPE Express but it wouldn't hurt to make a wax cast and make some measurements. All those proofmarks don't appear to be Belgian. Can you snap a better pic of the flats of the rifled tube?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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lancaster
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Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360 [Re: ellenbr]
      #163526 - 07/07/10 03:00 AM

never heard of a 9,3x60R, its a x57R or a x72R

I would not wonder if Pieper had made it as a 38-55 for the north american market.

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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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GroovyMike
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Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360 [Re: lancaster]
      #163527 - 07/07/10 03:05 AM

I can try to get a better pic but I took a lot and this was the best one. Thanks for the input so far!

--------------------
Delight yourself in the Lord and He will give you the desires of your heart. Psalm 37:4

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GroovyMike
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Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360 *DELETED* [Re: GroovyMike]
      #163540 - 07/07/10 03:56 AM

Post deleted by GroovyMike

--------------------
Delight yourself in the Lord and He will give you the desires of your heart. Psalm 37:4

Edited by GroovyMike (07/07/10 03:57 AM)

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kuduae
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Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360 [Re: GroovyMike]
      #163543 - 07/07/10 04:18 AM

" All those proofmarks don't appear to be Belgian."
Sorry, Raimey, but I can see only the usual Liege, Belgium blackpowder proofmarks! On the action flat there is the "Perron", the symbol of the City of Liege, and a "V under star", a Belgian inspectors personal stamp. Under the rifle barrel there is the "EL" blackpowder proofmark, The "ELG in oval under crown", the Liege proofhouse acceptance mark in use from 1893, and the "R under crown" which in Liege marks proof of a rifled barrel. "8.8"mm is the correct bore (not rifling or bullet!)diameter for both the 9.3x72R and it's forerunner, the 9.3x57R aka .360 BPExpress.

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GroovyMike
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Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360 [Re: kuduae]
      #163544 - 07/07/10 04:27 AM

VERY HELPFUL!

Thank you.

I don’t know if anything of further identification in the following photos, but here they are just in case:
















Any other options for dies or would everyone here recommend CH4D?
I am unfamiliar with the firm.

Thank you once again for your help and expertise.

--------------------
Delight yourself in the Lord and He will give you the desires of your heart. Psalm 37:4

Edited by CptCurl (07/07/10 05:38 AM)

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kuduae
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Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360 [Re: GroovyMike]
      #163558 - 07/07/10 07:41 AM

BTW the Perron, ancient symbol of the liberties of the City of Liege, is shown among the Liege proofmarks. The word "Perron" comes from pierre = stone in French. It is also shown in the coat of arms of liege.

The perron proper was composed in the early middle ages from Roman artifacts, some marble slabs, a pillar, four lions and a pineapple. Lions and pineapple were Roman gravemarkers.
The photo shows what the real thing looks like, standing on a 17th century substructure in the Liege marketplace.



Edited by CptCurl (07/07/10 11:11 AM)

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ellenbr
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Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360 [Re: kuduae]
      #163566 - 07/07/10 09:58 AM



Well, Axel just may be correct and the odd marks on the longarm are transitional type stamps from a finite period of time, possibly some were just used for a number of months. If that's a "Crown" over "C" on the underside of the scattergun tube, I haven't a clue what it might be. In 1894 the proofhouse made a transition from 0,2mm plug gauge increments to a 0,1mm plug gauge increment. So that might explain the "8.9" stamp(bore diameter) on the inside of the rifled tubes, which I think to be the 1st diameter, and the "8.8" stamp being the 2nd one. Can you tell if the "Express" is coupled with "Express non raye"? If so the longarm would date between 1894 & 1898. The example would be from a transitional period and just from the marks the inspectors/stamp applyers seemed confused. Maybe they were unaccustomed to some new rules. There are some marks on the rifled flats that more than likely are of Belgian origin and may have only existed for several months. There's a slim chance that they might import marks and be of Czech origin. Also the watertable is stamped "Belgium" and that would have been required to import into countries with country of origin stamps such as the U.S. of A.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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GroovyMike
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Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360 [Re: ellenbr]
      #163622 - 07/07/10 10:35 PM

Thank you once again for sharing your knowledge.

There are no other words except "Express" and "Belgium" that I can see, thus no "Non Raye".

I will try to contact CH4D regarding the dies.

Can anyone direct me toward load data?

--------------------
Delight yourself in the Lord and He will give you the desires of your heart. Psalm 37:4

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ellenbr
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Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360 [Re: GroovyMike]
      #163624 - 07/07/10 11:14 PM

I think I load my 8x57R/360 using 9.3X72R(CH4D) dies. I'd look around for a used set of RCBS 9.3X72R dies because chances are once you acquire a longarm chambered in one of the family of 360" BPE that you are going to acquire another. The 9.3X82R would be one of the family that may be difficult to reload using the 9.3X72R dies.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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kuduae
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Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360 [Re: GroovyMike]
      #163625 - 07/07/10 11:21 PM

Of course there is no "NON RAYE" on a rifled barrel, because this means "not rifled"! "Express non Raye" was used from 1894 to 1924 on guns that took BPE cases with a round ball, destined for countries which even then thought a rifled barrel to be more dangerous than a smoothbore and required licensing, or to circumvent import restictions and heavy taxing by such countries. Some of these smoothbores were rifled later.

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GroovyMike
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Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360 [Re: kuduae]
      #163632 - 08/07/10 03:39 AM

OF COURSE 360 BPE is the most epensive set of dies in the mix:

from http://www.ch4d.com/

search for 360 shows:

360 #5 Rook $ 78.25
360 2 7/16 $ 78.25
360 Black Powder Exp $ 156.60
360 Imperial Mag $ 109.57
360 Nitro Express #2 $ 109.57
360 Nitro Express 2.25 in. $ 78.25
360 Str. 2 7/16 2.437 $ 78.25
360 Wesley Richards No. 3 $ 109.57
400 - 360 Purdey $ 109.57
8 x 57 (.360) $ 78.25
9.3 x 72 (.360) $ 78.25

Now I have to check cartridges of the world and see how much difefrence there is between 360 BPE and say 360 Nitro Express 2.25 in.....

I am out of my depth on this so I appreciate your contunued input.
Mike

--------------------
Delight yourself in the Lord and He will give you the desires of your heart. Psalm 37:4

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ellenbr
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Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360 [Re: GroovyMike]
      #163633 - 08/07/10 03:47 AM

Axel, I did take note of the "Crown" over "R" but thought they may have changed their minds and rifled it but that would have been more that 0,2mm difference?? Are you sure on the "Express Non Raye" holding out till 1924?

Mike:
It's the 360 2 1/4" BPE but as I said I'd look for 9.3x72R dies, which would be a 72-57 difference, but then again they are the same price.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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kuduae
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Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360 [Re: ellenbr]
      #163640 - 08/07/10 07:02 AM

Raimey, the stamp sais only "Express" without "non raye"! The marking "Express" only sais it was proofed for one of the blackpowder Express cartridges, which all took a healthier bp charge than the proof tables prescribed for the "ordinary" proof. Remember the German use of the crown/E mark for higher-than-normal pressure proof. The 1891 German proof tables, patterned after the Liege ones, prescribed for gauge # 99.7 =.360"bore an "ordinary" final proof charge of 89.5gr BP/403gr lead bullet, but for the "Express" final proof 100.3gr BP. I think the barrel was marked "8.9"by the barrelmaker, but at the proofhouse for some reason only the 8.8 mm plug gauge entered, so the two designations.
According to Gargela/Faktor:"Zeichen auf Handfeuerwaffen", the EXPRESS NON RAYE mark apeeared in the 1894 tables, but was included no more in the 1924 tables. If it was still in use all the time, I don't know

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DennisDaigger
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Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360 [Re: fuhrmann]
      #206359 - 02/04/12 01:17 PM

Fuhrmann,

Might I impose on you to send me the articles on the 9.3x57R-360?

Incidentally, "The Handloader's Manual of Cartridge Conversions" (THMCC) has a page on the 9.3x57R and under other names lists 9.3x57R/360 and .360 Nitro Express. It lists the information source as Cartridges of the World, 4th edition and my 10th edition does not have any info on the cartridge. The loading data in THMCC is for a 190 gr lead bullet at 2000fps.

The cartridge specs in THMCC are for a case 2.245" long and head diameter of .428 and the base case for forming is stated as .45-70 Gov't. This case can't be right as it is simple too large for a nearly straight case that ends in a .365 bullet diameter. The 9.3x72R is probable as a case. This would comport rather nicely to the .360 Nitro Express case dimensions. Anyway, I can imagine a 200 grain 20:1 alloy paper jacketed bullet at 2000fps as the cat's meow for Sitka black tails.

If I buy the gun I'm looking at I can then tell you more about the chamber dimensions of one gun.
Dennis

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fuhrmann
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Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360 [Re: DennisDaigger]
      #206445 - 03/04/12 04:09 PM

Dennis,

I will gladly send you what I have, by e-mail.
Would you send me a PM with your e-mail address?

Fuhrmann

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DennisDaigger
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Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360 [Re: fuhrmann]
      #206484 - 04/04/12 11:01 AM

PM sent as requested. Thanks.

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