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luv2safari
.400 member


Reged: 09/11/03
Posts: 1401
Loc: United States
Klaserie
      #13020 - 05/04/04 02:29 AM

Can anyone give me information on the type and quality of buffalo hunts being offered at the Klaserie area in RSA?

I've added, subtracted and cyphered back and forth...these hunts cost no more than the "bargain" 2x1 Selous hunts, when you figure in malaria tablets, yellow fever injections, Tanz visas, extra air fare, a couple of nights stay in Dar...in & out, additional shipping costs, charters...etc.

All of a sudden, the Tanzania buffalo hunts are as, or more expensive than the Klaserie hunts.

But, what's the quality of the buffalo?

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics

Edited by luv2safari (05/04/04 02:30 AM)


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shakari
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Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: Klaserie [Re: luv2safari]
      #13021 - 05/04/04 02:52 AM

The main difference is that in Tanzania you are hunting completely wild Buffalo (& other animals) in a 'true wilderness area' and in RSA you are hunting animals that are considerably more habituated to people & vehicles..... and not in a TWA. Size of hunting area is also very different. The area we hunt in the Selous Reserve Tanzania is 2250 sq Kilometres and there are no fences between areas and herds of Buff can sometimes number over 1000 head. RSA areas are much smaller and Buff herds would be nowhere near as big.

There's nothing at all wrong with trophy quality in RSA, in fact it's very good.

We offer Buff hunting in both countries, but if I had a choice I would choose Tanzania every time...... but that's my preference, and everyone has their own criteria to apply in their particular choice of venue.

As Craig Boddington says " A Buffalo hunt should never be judged in inches" I'd add to that by saying neither should it be judged solely in $$$s

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



Edited by shakari (05/04/04 03:25 AM)


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luv2safari
.400 member


Reged: 09/11/03
Posts: 1401
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Re: Klaserie [Re: shakari]
      #13023 - 05/04/04 04:07 AM

As with most of us, it has to be judged buy the "inches" in my bank account...and time is also a factor.

I've hunted several times in Tanzania and love the country! The prices have gotten so darned high there, that it is becoming a high roller country, leaving the door shut to those of us with limited means. As this happens, the once high prices for an RSA buffalo hunt are looking better all the time.

For me that $1,000.00 or $1,500.00 difference and 2-4 days less travel make a big difference. If I had more personal choices, I would hunt buffalo in Masailand...less buffalo, but more bachelor bulls and a high percentage of big bulls. But, those hunts are up one league from my wallet. The Selous is producing some nice buffalo due to the good forage recently, so I have heard on good authority.

Prices are not bad in the Selous, but when extra travel expense and extra time involved are factored in, RSA becomes a choice to explore. Botswana is for people who pay $2.00 for a $1.00 item because they can....

I have written off Zim as a place to hunt or bring my wife. I try to avoid being anywhere near self immolation, as being practiced by Bobby the Moog's gangsters. They haven't a clue!

How are things in the Caprivi Strip? I hear they have some excellent buffalo?

This will be my last buffalo hunt and my wife's first trip to Africa. I entertain ANY SUGGESTIONS...? This good forum is a place I trust for good advice from quality members. My budget is about $12,000.00, and I don't want to share this safari as a 2x1...except possibly with a forum member. Those here are a cut above...just take a look at the other forums...




--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics


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shakari
.400 member


Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: Klaserie [Re: luv2safari]
      #13024 - 05/04/04 05:10 AM

I appreciate your comment about money....but if you've hunted Tanzania, you'll probably be disappointed with a Buff hunt in RSA.

Selous tends to come in for some unfair criticism regarding trophy quality......certainly I've seen some real monsters in the area we use. I think some of the problem is that there are so many buff there compared to other places it's easier for the big boys to get lost in the crowd. Last year in one week alone we saw 3 over 45 and 1 well over 46 inches......but that was unusual.

I think you've made the right decision about Zim, things there are getting worse by the day and the same problems are also causing increasing poaching in the Zambezi Valley of Mozambique.....Also, as you say Botswana is very expensive....it's actually only really at it's best for big Elephant.... but it's pretty much unbeatable for that.

Caprive strip is good in places, but (IMO) the good areas are stupidly expensive. The less expensive areas are a waste of time.

As to suggestions, you might like to take a look at my website to start with and if you like what you see, perhaps you could send me an e-mail and I'll send you further details.

I've got a couple of vacancies left for both peak and early season (but not many). Our early & late hunts are only published as 2x1 hunts, but if you want a 1x1 and an observer in the early or late season, I could work out a price for you.

Please don't think I'm reluctant to post everything on the forum, it's just that I don't like to give the hard sell here. I feel it's abusing John's hospitality and offensive to potential clients. Anyone who is interested can always look at my website and contact me from there.



--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



Edited by shakari (05/04/04 05:22 AM)


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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39263
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Klaserie [Re: shakari]
      #13040 - 05/04/04 11:33 AM

Steve

I have no problem you posting more info here if you wish. It is up to you.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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luv2safari
.400 member


Reged: 09/11/03
Posts: 1401
Loc: United States
Re: Klaserie [Re: shakari]
      #13058 - 05/04/04 04:03 PM

Steve,

Let's work out a 7 day hunt in Tanzania. I would much rather hunt there than in a more confined environment...and pay the price. Some things should be done right, and my last buffalo hunt will be done right.

A quality hunt with a quality PH/Friend is priceless!

luv2

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics


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freischuetz
.224 member


Reged: 05/04/04
Posts: 23
Re: Klaserie [Re: shakari]
      #13085 - 06/04/04 05:39 AM

Shakari, I would like to know if you based “ the increasing poaching in the Zambezi valley of Mozambique” on first hand experience ? and how well do you know the area.?

--------------------
Time is your treasure use it wisely you can never replace it


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shakari
.400 member


Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: Klaserie [Re: freischuetz]
      #13092 - 06/04/04 06:28 AM

Hi Freischuetz,

Welcome to the forum...... I know you're gonna enjoy it.

I first hunted the Zambezi Valley about 6 or 8 years ago and although I couldn't and wouldn't claim to know every inch of it. I have hunted a fair amount of it. I also know other PHs who hunt the same(ish) areas..... and no-one gossips like a PH!

Last time I was there we heard 4 long bursts of AK47 gunfire in one night alone and the next day we found a newly ventilated & killed Elephant carcass minus tusks.... actually, minus one tusk. The other was still attached but as Mr Big-Ears had fallen on his side it was impossible to get to the other tusk. There must have been a lot more carcasses we didn't find.

It's only my opinion, but I reckon that most of the poaching is now being done by Zimbabweans who are trying to get away from the troubles in their home country.

I'd also say that the Valley is not really a great hunting destination anymore. There's nothing there that can't be hunted a lot easier and more comfortably elsewhere, and when you compare game populations of the Zambezi Valley to somewhere like Tanzania you realise how much better off you are in somewhere like the Selous. Hell, they don't even attempt to keep people out of the Valley at all. Again compare that to the Selous & other areas of Tanzania where anyone caught inside the reserve and not employed by the safari companies is considered a poacher.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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freischuetz
.224 member


Reged: 05/04/04
Posts: 23
Re: Klaserie [Re: shakari]
      #13236 - 09/04/04 07:50 AM

Shakari not everything in Tanzania is sunshine!

I enjoy this forum thanks!

Have the government not cut up hunting blocks and increased the quotas?
About the Selous concessions? how many a in the reserve and how many a in CBC areas were you got population and settlements. Don’t forget poaching is still happen and as far as I know there hat some serious poaching problems on some places on the western side of the Selous from refugees. Not so long ago the poaching in the slous was out of control and if the German government together with the Tanzanian government and the GTZ would not have step in you would not hunting there today.

If Mozambique would get the same support Mozambique would be at least on par or better for hunting.

Lets not take away anything from Tanzania is great hunting there, a top hunting destination and a beautiful country but it got is problems too.

Let me update you in a little bit about the development of lower Zambezi delta in Mozambique.

The delta will (is)be listed as RAMSAR side and this will bring greater protection.

Animal population increasing, poachers get send to jail and the situation improving constantly.
How ever it is all depending on the operator to follow up poaching and do active anti-poaching.
On the south bank off the Zambezi Delta you got 4 hunting concessions which a Coutada ( Concession) 10,11,12,and 14. this hunting concession surrounding the Marromeu buffalo reserve.
The size of the concession’s is:
No. 10 2008 km/2 or 496,187.acres
No. 11 1928 km/2 or 476,419.acres
No. 12 2963 km/2 or 732,173 acres
No. 14 1353 km/2 or 334,333 acres
The reserve is about 2000km/2

Between the this areas you find differed habitats ranging from forest, miombo wood land, palm savannas, flood plains, open grassland and swamps. According to habitat you find a wide variety of game animals from blue duiker to elephant. Best known is the area for buffalo. Buffalos are widely distributed in all areas from the forest in Coutada 12 and 11 till the grassland and flood plains in Coutada 10 and 14. buffalo numbers a in excess of 5000 which give you 1 buffalo per 1.6 km/2 I don’t know what density you have in Tanzania? I think you wont find a higher density of suni and red duiker anywhere in Africa then in Coutada 11 and 12. you should have no problem to shoot a good nyala, waterbuck, reed buck or a decent sable on top. You can hunt big crocodiles, hippo, Lichtenstein’s hartebeest and elephant with good success.
There are kudu, eland, zebra and impala however very few trophy animals of this species.
You will find excellent chobe bushbuck and leopard.
There are lion, in low density and the mane is generally short.
Bush pigs and warthogs are common so is on some places oriby.

Time permitting you also can fish for tiger’s or have some bird shooting. The area is unique for bird watching. And where can you hunt buffalo on the beach of the Indian ocean?

It is in generally hard hunting and only reasonable fit people should consider to hunt there. ( depending on species and area) it is a real piece of old Africa..

There a still problems to overcome at least Mozambique moving in the right direction not like Zimbabwe.

You need more info?




--------------------
Time is your treasure use it wisely you can never replace it


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luv2safari
.400 member


Reged: 09/11/03
Posts: 1401
Loc: United States
Re: Klaserie [Re: freischuetz]
      #13247 - 09/04/04 02:27 PM

I just looked up some prices for hunting in Mozambique...!!! I need Preparation-H just LOOKING at the trophy fees...

It is a fine place for those who think that $60,000.00 to $100,00.00 is chump change, but it sure isn't a place for the average guy to even consider. OUCH!

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics


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shakari
.400 member


Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: Klaserie [Re: freischuetz]
      #13248 - 09/04/04 04:14 PM

Freischuetz,

An interesting post and I'll reply to your points in the order you raised them:

Yes, Selous hunting blocks were reduced in size a while ago, but (IMO) it hasn't done any harm at all.....they're still pretty big. The area we use is not the largest by any means and it totals 2250 square kilometres........pretty big by anyone's standards. The Selous Reserve is the biggest Reserve in the world at 5 MILLION acres plus it's various buffer zones. Also there are no human settlements whatsoever allowed in any Tanzanian reserve, (only in the buffer zones) and that includes the Selous. In fact even the hunting and photographic camps have to be totally removed and cleared of any trace of human settlement at the end of every hunting season. Inspections are carried out afterwards and the penalties for not doing a good job are pretty severe. Although it's not very likely that a concession holder might lose the concession for infringment of this requirement it is possible.

Our current Lion & Leopard quota is 4 of each and we can usually get another 2 of each if we apply...... but populations are so high we hear Lion pretty much every night around camp and are still able to take our full quota of Leopard out of one tree alone if we want to.....so frankly I reckon quotas could easily be increased dramatically without any long term damage to the populations.

You're quite right that Tanzania has poaching problems, but where in Africa does not? From my experiences Mozambique has far more of a poaching problem than TZ. Poaching in TZ used to be considerably worse than it is now. Immediatly after independance the Elephant poaching was especially bad, but this was slowed considerably by the CITES ivory trade ban and later when poaching had been bought under control the new size & weight restrictions on hunted ivory also helped considerably. (This might be a pain in the ass for us PHs, but it is very successful for the Elephant populations).

The poaching situation decreased dramatically when the Tanzanian government introduced a shoot to kill policy on poachers some years ago.(1980s if I remember correctly) This might sound harsh, but I'm sure that no-one could argue that the policy did not work. As poaching reduced, this policy was relaxed..... but not withdrawn, and nowadays poachers are much more likely to be arrested rather than shot. (unless they stand and fight) Now what poaching there is, is mostly subsistance driven rather than financially motivated..... and the vast majority of it is restricted to the buffer zones....and let's face it, we all have to live. Personally, I try to alleviate the situation by dropping off any excess meat at any nearby buffer zone village if I'm in a suitable area. If they have meat from the international hunters they won't poach....... the Zim campfire project proved that.

IMO Mozambique could be a great hunting destination, but not until the game populations recover, hunting camps get more comfortable, poaching is bought under control and government get considerably more organised in allocating hunting blocks......the last time I was there I was driving down an Elephant path in the Zambezi Valley and met another hunting vehicle coming the other way.....turned out an area had been allocated twice to seperate companies....that's never happened to me in TZ in the 8 or 10 years I've been hunting there. I've even stayed in Mozambican hunting camps that didn't have doors on the client accommodations......not a great idea when there are big predators in the area......to say nothing of a central ablution/toilet block rather than en suite bathrooms which means the clients have to wander round camp in the middle of the night if they need a piss.

I don't know a hell of a lot about the Delta as I don't like the wetness of the area and from my very limited experience it's too open for my tastes. I like to do my hunting as up close as possible and preferably only wet with sweat rather than up to my ass in mud, water, mosquitos, tsetses & bilharzia....... I've also got to say that the Zambezi Valley is the worst place by far I've ever been to for mosquito's & tsetse flies.

As far as Buffalo populations are concerned. TZ has regular game counts by the Frankfurt Zoological Society who tell us that the Selous has the largest Buff populations in Africa by far and certainly in our part of the Selous we sometimes see herds in excess of 1000 at the peak of the season.....I don't think I've ever even seen a herd much over 100 in Mozambique, (certainly not standing still) let alone 1000. Also the hunting pressure is considerably less in TZ. When our herds see us they stop and look, whereas from my experiences in Mozambique they run like hell as soon as the hear a noise let alone see anyone or anything. Last time I hunted Mozambique, I found myself walking and running after Buffalo.....all day every day. And boy, does it get hot in the Zambezi Valley..... The beginning of the season is fine, but the later parts......phew!! they don't call it The Months Of The Sun for nothing. I live in Africa, and if it's hot for me think what it's like for someone from the UK or the colder parts of the US & Canada.

As to other species, I don't know figures, so it's hard to be precise, but I do know that we regularly see herds of Eland that number well in excess of 100 and herds of wildebeest that cause us to stop for fully 10 - 15 minutes as they run across the road......I would guess they number in thousands, but I've never tried to count them.....again I've never seen anything like that in Mozambique or elsewhere.

Nyala don't occur in Tanzania, but the rest do, and can be hunted considerably easier than in Mozambique. You have great croc's there and plenty of them, but so does Tanzania and in fact I can't think of a single species that occur in both areas that can't be hunted easier in TZ than it can in Mozambique. Perhaps the only one might be Elephant, but only because TZ has a strict size & weight limitation where Mozambique does not..... but let's be honest, if a client wants a really big Elephant you would not hunt either of the countries we're discussing you would hunt Botswana instead.

TZ also has excellent fishing (including tigers) and wingshooting...although IMO Mozambique beaches are some of the best to be had anywhere, but we're discussing hunting and not diving. Both places have excellent shark & marlin fishing.

I agree with you that Mozambique is moving in the right direction, but having hunted both countries I can honestly say that Mozambique is at least 10 years behind Tanzania, almost as expensive in most places and even more expensive in some. And it will ALWAYS be much tougher hunting than Tanzania simply because of the terrain and heat. I believe that clients are not simply booking a hunt they are booking an adventure holiday..... that's 2 words. They want an adventure and they also want a holiday..... not a SAS selection course.

I also agree with your comment about Zim. I'm sure that the next year or two will see an increasing number of hunters coming home disappointed, and sooner or later someone is going to get badly burned... but that's another subject.

I truly hope Mozambique does improve. Especially as it's right on my doorstep and would be much easier for me to access, but currently (IMO) it's not a patch on TZ. And if any concession holder wanted to get me interested they would have to offer me one hell of a deal and one hell of a great concession to get me sufficiently interested.

If you have any info, then please feel free to e-mail it to me, but don't hold your breath whilst waiting for me to pitch up with clients........... I'd first have to come up on my own and check the operation out in it's entirety.....and believe me. I have VERY high standards.

At the end of the day, the product and market forces dictate which areas are the best and most popular, and TZ has the well earned reputation of being quite simply the very best in Africa for a general bag of Dangerous Game species. In the years I've hunted Tanzania I've always had 100% success on all DG species except 1 Elephant hunt last year. Even then, we only had 5 days of looking for Mr Bigears and although we couldn't find any shootable ones we did look hard at over 100 bulls. Had it been Mozambique (with no size restriction) we could have shot over half of them.

With the best will in the world I can't see Mozambique ever taking over that particular title.



--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



Edited by shakari (11/04/04 05:34 AM)


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freischuetz
.224 member


Reged: 05/04/04
Posts: 23
Re: Klaserie [Re: shakari]
      #13315 - 11/04/04 09:31 AM

shakari

I wont have to hold my breath and I don’t want to sell any thing. Believe me my standards are very high.

What is comfortable hunting??

What is wrong with a SAS selection course as adventure holidays???

Lets get this one straight I am not on this forum to sell any thing, nor to market safaris, and I do not want to take any thing away from Tanzania , Zambia or Botswana or for this matter of Zimbabwe, at the same time if I see incorrect information about Moz. I will put the facts straight! We should use this forum to inform hunters, neutral, correctly, objective and honestly (Defiantly not meaning that you not) and at the same time listening carefully to the members questions share experiences and advise as best and if we can. The hunting industry can only survive if the good the bad and the ugly gets separated.

Never have been there a twice allocated concessions in Moz, impossible!
All hunting concession in Mozambique a allocated by public tender all interested parties can attend the opening of submitted tenders and only one company gets the concession. It never happen that different company’s got the same concession. Someone have been BS you at the time.

Following the most likely scenario which happen on your hunt:
Crossing in to next area.
Some people claim to have areas, which their don’t, and ripping people of.
Some lease holder sub-lease which is illegal without written permission of the national director in Maputo!
Some people selling happily hunts on shows and do not have any concession in Mozambique or in any other country.
Some PH’s, or maybe I have to say most, claim to “own the concession’s their hunting in “ in reality their just buy hunts from the concession holder and resell them.
And the list can go on I am sure you came across this before?

If you been on this hunt in the upper Zambezi valley I agree with you is very hot and the terrain, up and down the escarpment, is hard hunting.
In the delta you do find comfortable camps (with doors), and some have toilet and shower build in, not my preference, and there is no bilharzia very few tsetse and their don’t carry. Mosquito’s yes, but I found is easy manageable, far less mosquito’s than in Scandinavia, Canada or Alaska.
I had never malaria (thanks to lariam) bilharzias, or been bitten by tsetse or anything in 11 years in the delta. Same for family and friends.
(only by mosquitoes)

And what makes your think I don’t like it close, a shot of 100 meter on buffalo is desperate and no fun, most shots at 30-50 meters some at 15 meters that is when the fun starts. To open? yes one some places, it is open grassland but then again on some places you can smell them 5 meters in front of you, but you cant see them. You know the feeling.
I would like to post one or two pictures of some herds, yes herds of 600-800+ buff but I don’t know how to post them on this forum.
You cant compare Zambezi valley buff behaviour with the behaviour of the buff in the delta. Conservative hunting quotas, responsible operators, long term concession contract’s are some of the intensives to build-up and manage game areas properly.

Good hunting.


--------------------
Time is your treasure use it wisely you can never replace it


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475Guy
.400 member


Reged: 22/08/03
Posts: 1088
Loc: Kali, US
Re: Klaserie [Re: freischuetz]
      #13316 - 11/04/04 10:46 AM

You could email your pics to John (NitroX) at this site. He will be more than happy to post them for you.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.


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mikeh416Rigby
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Reged: 24/02/03
Posts: 6051
Loc: The beautiful Oley Valley, PA....
Re: Klaserie [Re: freischuetz]
      #13318 - 11/04/04 11:34 AM

For someone who said in one of their first posts that they hope to be able to contribute at sometime, and has limited hunting experience, you are doing very well here. Keep it coming. Glad you're aboard.

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mikeh416Rigby
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Reged: 24/02/03
Posts: 6051
Loc: The beautiful Oley Valley, PA....
Re: Klaserie [Re: freischuetz]
      #13319 - 11/04/04 11:40 AM

freischuetz-would you please email me so I can get your email address. There are some questions I'd like to ask you. Thanks.

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shakari
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Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: Klaserie [Re: freischuetz]
      #13321 - 11/04/04 03:24 PM

Freischuetz,

I agree with you that the forums should be used as a tool for hunters to make friends, help each other and weed out the wheat from the chaff rather as a marketing tool.... Nor am I trying to criticise Mozambique or any other country. I'm just saying that I've hunted both countries (amongst others) and from my personal experiences Tanzania is a better country to hunt in than Mozambique for a general bag of Dangerous Game. Certainly it more marketable country....and I think that the number of hunters who hunt TZ compared to Mozambique would reflect this. Having said this there is no such thing as a typical hunter and each hunter has his or her own criteria for selecting a country to hunt in and which company to hunt with. Some use price only, some use success rates and some use overall quality and most use a combination of all 3. Those that want to hunt Moz will choose to hunt there, but I'm sure you'll agree with me that it's not for everyone.

As to areas being twice allocated, it may well be impossible, but what I said happened to me. It could have been caused by lots of things, but it did happen. I'm not suggesting that it was an entire concession area, just a small block or something similar..... but was a pain in the ass!

I don't understand your comment about Bilharzia not being in the delta. Bilharzia is prevalent in the Zambezi Valley and the human populations ensure it's not wiped out. Surely if it occurs in the Zambezi at Cahora Bassa it must also occur downstream in the delta?...... but I bow to your greater knowledge of the country.

One thing that both countries have in common is their principle of ensuring wilderness areas remain the property of the country and let out on fixed term leases to individual operators. This in my opinion is the best (in fact only) policy to pursue. Once these areas are owned by individual landowners it gets divided ny fences and the hunting spoiled. This has been proved in south Africa.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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