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Hunting >> Hunting in Africa & hunting dangerous game

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shakari
.400 member


Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: Leopard charge. [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #130379 - 24/03/09 11:36 PM

Alan,

The trick is to shoot for the face which is stretched out in front of the animal and if you get it right, you either hit or get close to the brain and/or spine and with a bit of luck on the angles etc, you might also even hit the engine room. - Very fast opening bullets are worth their weight in gold.

I'm a bugger for not updating my photo gallery but below my post are a couple of pics that show where you want to place your shot on a charging cat.

I take your point on big shot........ also take your point on the animals you've used it on, but I note there's no Lions or Leopards on that list. If you say they work on the animals you've used them on, I don't doubt your word one iota...... but until you've used on cats, you don't know if they work on cats, and from my personal experience, they're about as much use as a one legged man at an arse kicking party on cats.

Shooting Leopard from a blind isn't for everyone but unless you do it with dogs, you probably won't be successful without using bait and blind...... but remember mate, that the shot is just the culmination of a loooong game of chess to get the cat to bait and it's that game that's sooooo enjoyable. A good PH will involve you in that game so you get to enjoy it, a not so good PH may not allow you that pleasure.

Here's the pics & remember that a cat charges with it's head low and stretched out in front of him (Leopard slightly lower than than Lion). Both bullet holes are from my 500 and both animals dropped like sacks of the brown stuff. At the bottom is a pic of a charging Lion to illustrate my point. One also needs to remember that every charge situation is different and about the only thing they have in common is that they all happen helluva fast.







--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



Edited by shakari (25/03/09 12:24 AM)


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9.3x57
.450 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5520
Loc: United States
Re: Leopard charge. [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #130380 - 25/03/09 12:20 AM

Quote:

Correct me if I'm wrong but shooting a leopard at very close range with a heavy calibre would do nothing except pass right through the animal without expanding and unless you hit a vital area, you would have a problem.

Generally-speaking, any caliber that generates over about 2000 fps at the strike also produces a certain amount of hydraulic affect that normally causes severe cavitation. This can be seen dramatically in testing media and in animals. Your statement is more a possibility than a probability tho I've seen this lack of hydraulic affect occur with smaller calibers at very close range.

Most importantly tho, it is not the "caliber" that passes thru. It is the bullet. Use a bullet that will expand and you will have a massive wound with a heavy NE caliber at bayonet range. Even if a guy is stuck with stoutly constructed bullets he could trick the points a bit to ensure quick opening. And the shots that Shakari is talking about are not at 400 meters but 4 feet where essentially muzzle velocity prevails.


As far as penetration is concerned with 00 BUCK ,those knockers of this round have obviously never used it.
I've personally shot pigs,goats ,donkey and scrub cattle with this round and put them all down.

I loaded some 410 2 1/2 inch cartriges with3 x 36 cal round balls and shot cattle at close range a while ago with a one shot one kill.

00Buck is 330 diameter.

My original post I thought was pretty clear. It is the poor patterning of 00 that I criticize, particularly on smaller critters I've used it on. Where it provides a tight pattern it provides no advantage; up close. There, a guy might as well use a rifle. A guy in my opinion is far better served with a gun that will do what the buckshot gun will do up close, and also be capable of, say, a 70-yard shot should that possiblitity occur. A 00 buck loaded shotgun would be worthless on a leopard at 70 yards. Also, my media testing of buckshot exposed one more problem with it that I never much thought of before I tested it; the erratic and relatively unpredictable nature of penetration. It was very difficult to predict how many pellets would go how far in the test media. Since shooting involves a certain amount of probabilities, I'd take a rifle every time over buckshot, tho obviously tons of game has been shot with buckshot over the years, in all countries everywhere.

As for shooting leopard from a hide on a bait,IMHO it would be more exciting going to the local shooting gallery.

To each his own. I suppose there are those who would say you aren't a hunter if you use a modern rifle, a 4x4 vehicle or Gore-Tex boots, too.

Incidently, we are not allowed to shoot cougar over bait, but I can assure you you will come home empty handed if you think you are going to merely wander into a secretive cat like the cougar or the leopard. For example, I know woods workers {loggers, foresters, etc} here that have spent their entire lives in the woods and never saw a lion, not one. Almost 30 years ago I spent six weeks tromping around leopard country in Congo and never saw one, just one serval cat at night. Just making the point that they aren't standing around waiting for a handout.

Here, we can chase lion with hounds and that is essentially the only way to do it. Tracking is impossible.

Interesting Shakari finds chasing leopard with hounds is undesireable to him. Maybe it is the terrain that makes it boring? I have never found the chasing of bear or cougar uninteresting here, that's for sure.





--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
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Re: Leopard charge. [Re: 9.3x57]
      #130382 - 25/03/09 12:25 AM

Shakari; Any pics of the internal damage to either of those critters?

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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shakari
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Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: Leopard charge. [Re: 9.3x57]
      #130384 - 25/03/09 12:39 AM

Sorry mate, none, but if it's of any use, there was a very large wound channel on both occasions that travelled either right alongside the spine or crossed and broke the spine (can't remember which) and exit holes out of the arse of both animals.

Interestingly, we couldn't find where the bullet went out of the skull of either animal and it was only when the taxidermist got his magnifing glass out that we found rifling marks on those very thin bones at the back of the nasal area on both animals.......... hardly believeable but that's the way it was.

FWIW, bullets were Woodligh SPs (NOT PSPs) on both occasions.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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xausa
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Reged: 07/03/07
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Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: Leopard charge. [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #130385 - 25/03/09 12:47 AM

Quote:


As for shooting leopard from a hide on a bait,IMHO it would be more exciting going to the local shooting gallery.




Please give me the address of your local shooting gallery. That would be an experience I wouldn't want to miss.

I have to admit that I was reluctant to go after a leopard in the first place. Only after my PH convinced me that I would always regret it if I didn't (and he was right) did I agree to give it a try.

My main concern was this: if I screwed up my shot, someone else would likely pay for it. My impression of leopards from all the accounts I had read was that they are very democratic creatures. Unlike lions, who tend to go for the nearest source of their pain and then stick with their tormentor, leopards will attack one person and then go on to the next until everyone in the party has had his share. In addition to the PH, I had two gunbearers and a tracker, all of whom would be involved in following up a wounded animal. The odds were five to one that one or more of them and not me would be the recipient of the leopard's attention. I didn't want that responsibility.

In addition, the only experience I had had with shooting cats was with the feral housecats I used to encounter on varmint hunting expeditions. When shot even with a high speed cartridge like a .220 Swift, which is sudden death on crows and groundhogs, cats have been known to jump five feet in the air, turn somersaults, and depart, yes, like a scalded cat, only to be found stone dead and shot to pieces fifty yards away. If this was the reaction of a ten pound housecat, I had a hard time visualizing that of a 150 pound predator.

As far as a leopard's strength is concerned, once, hunting on private land, we came across a place in the nine foot game fence, which was topped with barbed wire, where a leopard had carried a full grown sheep over it. We later found the sheep lodged 20 feet up in a crotch in a tree where the leopard had stored it for future consumption.

All this was going through my head when I squeezed the trigger on my .375 H&H double rifle from the blind 80 yards away. Imagine my consternation when the leopard didn't move, not even a twitch. It was stretched out on a horizontal limb, reaching for the warthog hung as bait, and it acted as though it had not even heard the shot. So I shot again. Still no reaction.

One of the gunbearers in the blind with me (the PH was off with the hunting car) said "bas", meaning "that's enough" or "it's finished", and we slowly and warily exited the blind, the gunbearers with their "shottiguns" (yes, loaded with buckshot) and I with my .375. As we walked toward the tree, the hindquarters of the leopard fell off the horizontal limb, leaving him draped over the branch from which the bait was secured. A post mortem revealed that both bullets had struck about an inch apart, and the first one had severed the leopard's spine.

I would compare the shot I made to shooting a free throw in a championship basketball game in the final seconds, with the game on the line. A thousand repetitions in practice don't compensate for the tension that builds up when you realize that you are not just letting yourself down, but the whole team and possibly their families and dependants, if you screw up the shot.

Only with a leopard your life and the life and well being of others are hanging on the line, and it is not a game.


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450_366
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Reged: 17/01/07
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Re: Leopard charge. [Re: shakari]
      #130386 - 25/03/09 01:17 AM

I will probably piss off a couple of users of buchshot, but anyway.

Buckshot are a pore way of getting large animals shooting an unsighted shotgun, if sighted a slug would be much better. Surely a buckshot will kill any animal if hitt right, but how many animals hasnt walked off with only one or two pellets under the skin and tought of as a miss. I cant understand the use of the buckshot at all, if you can hit and kill with a buckshot you will also be able to hit it with a slug or an ordinary rifle, and it will get past a bone if one is struck. The only use of a buckshot to me would be shooting of a speeding flatbed and trying to get a pig thats already is wounded.

As stated the 00 is about a 0,33cal roundball, and if i remember right theres about nine of them.
I wonder how many people would want to use a 0,33cal ducksfoot or pepperbox as a backup for cats?
Take a look at old mussleloaders, how many 0,33cal mussleloaders was concidered as a large game rifle or even less a big cat rifle? And to understand the animal in question, take an ordinary domestic cat upp in one hand, grab it under the belly and shake it and the add about 15-20 time the strenght. If its one thing i would fear it would be an angry cat, i would for sure not to try throwing an handfull of pellets at it when charged, i would want the biggest gun i could handle with accuracy and shooting a fast expanding bullet thru it. Are there any 8-bore varmint bullets out there?

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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dale
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Reged: 28/02/06
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Loc: logan W.V.
Re: Leopard charge. [Re: 450_366]
      #130402 - 25/03/09 05:29 AM

From the Xausa files


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shakari
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Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: Leopard charge. [Re: dale]
      #130406 - 25/03/09 05:46 AM

And that gentlemen is a one in a million picture and shot. I've never been that fortunate in 30 years of hunting in Africa....... my heartiest congratulations to the hunter and my envy to his PH!

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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xausa
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Reged: 07/03/07
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Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: Leopard charge. [Re: shakari]
      #130409 - 25/03/09 06:12 AM

Thanks, Dale, for posting the picture, and thanks, Steve, for the nice compliment. My PH was the late David Williams of Ker, Downey and Selby, the venue was the Selous, and the year was 1973. The leopard now resides in the Cumberland Museum, in Nashville, Tennessee. His skull graces my gun room.

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shakari
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Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: Leopard charge. [Re: xausa]
      #130411 - 25/03/09 06:21 AM

Reminds me of a funny story....... a couple of years ago, a PH who shall remain nameless to save his blushes, was on (probably) his first Leopard hunt. He omitted to put sizing marks on the tree, measure the spoor beforehand or anything else.

Anyway, there he was, sitting in the blind and a Leopard gets up on the branch. The PH tells his client to shoot, at which, the Leopard disappears for a moment and then reappears on the branch. PH tells the client, 'you must have missed, shoot again'......... So the client did.

When they went over the tree, they found two dead, perfectly shot Leopard cubs laying one on top of the other under the tree.

Christ knows what the told the game dept, but you gotta laugh huh!

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



Edited by shakari (25/03/09 06:23 AM)


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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5520
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Re: Leopard charge. [Re: dale]
      #130439 - 25/03/09 12:22 PM

Bill, as usual, well, AS USUAL, a great pic from your classic hunts.

Thanks for posting that pic.

Wow...

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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SharpsNitro
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Reged: 12/08/08
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Loc: Arizona, USA
Re: Leopard charge. [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #130443 - 25/03/09 01:11 PM

Leopard are elusive. I had the fortune to see a mother and cub last year in Namibia. We were touring Etosha and came around a bend of the road; I was sitting in the front passenger seat and had my camera in hand. The sequence below was ~3 seconds.





I saw four of the big five that day in less than 10 hours (no Cape Buffalo in the park). Daylight hunting without dogs is possible but not likely; VW vans don't have enough acceleration (and it's less sporting too).


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RLI
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Reged: 01/10/03
Posts: 534
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Leopard charge. [Re: shakari]
      #130461 - 25/03/09 08:08 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Shakari:

Out of curiousity, can you legally carry a handgun in any of the countries in which you hunt?




Some you can, some you can't and some are a bit of a grey area. I carry one (40 S&W) where I'm permitted to and I also dress for a Leopard track. I wear jeans, a leather motorcycle jacket and a shamargh. Might not look the full ticket and it's hotter n hell, but at least it'd give me some protection.

I've only ever got nailed by a Leopard once in my life and that was only a few deep scratches down one forearm, but I've gotta tell you it doesn't just hurt, it FUCKING HURTS! and it doesn't stop doing that for weeks and weeks and so I'll take any protection I can get nowadays.

Of course, the best way to avoid getting beaten up by Mr Spots is to have the client shoot straight in the first place and the second best way is to shoot straight during the follow up....... and I've gotta tell you, that charge in the video is slow compared to some. At night esp, you have one chance and one chance only to get a shot off and even if you do connect, the bloody thing can land on top of you if you're not careful.

Incidentally, even a dead cat can be dangerous because of all the nasty things they carry, so after you've done the hero pic bit with him on your shoulders etc, make a point of washing your hands before you climb in the truck and shower well (preferably with dog shampoo) as soon as you can afterwards.



Steve,
I was just thinking of protective clothing for leopard attack and as you have experience of a attack how would chainsaw protective trousers and jacket go? this fabric is not restrictive and can minimise a chainsaw at full revs to
very little if any injury to the body but continuous cutting in the same spot may be different!

cheers
Steve

--------------------
"Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid." — John Wayne


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shakari
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Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: Leopard charge. [Re: RLI]
      #130465 - 25/03/09 09:17 PM

As long as they don't restrict body movement, I think they'd be a bloody good idea. If they came in bib and brace and separate jacket, they'd be a brilliant idea!

Problem is I doubt we could buy such items over here and if we could, they'd cost a fortune.

I've gotta say, my one and only experience wasn't much of an experience and I got away incredibly lightly. Nevertheless, it was excrucuatingly painful for many weeks. Bad injuries from a Leopard must be a truly awful experience.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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RLI
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Reged: 01/10/03
Posts: 534
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Re: Leopard charge. [Re: shakari]
      #130470 - 25/03/09 10:39 PM

They come in trousers, bib & Brace, chaps, jackets and gloves and in drab olive! price in oz varies but work on $200 AUD for trousers. They are 50% cotton 50% kevlar but have 9 layers and kevlar is used a bit depending on make, I think they would protect against spots having a claw at you but you could still get injured but at least you won't get opened up!

--------------------
"Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid." — John Wayne


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shakari
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Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: Leopard charge. [Re: RLI]
      #130471 - 25/03/09 11:02 PM

Bib and brace and maybe a jacket sounds like it'd work pretty well. It's the bites and scratches that you need to avoid because of the subsequent infections which are the cause of most of the long term pain.

I'll try to get down to my local farm suppliers place over the next few days and see if they have anything and if not, I'll start looking elsewhere.

Thanks for such a great idea!!

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Re: Leopard charge. [Re: shakari]
      #130472 - 25/03/09 11:28 PM

Some interesting reading:-

http://www.bwanabrown.com/a_shotgun_for_africa_.htm

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949


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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Re: Leopard charge. [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #130473 - 25/03/09 11:31 PM

And some more:-

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=aiNd...ct=result#PPA38,M1

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949


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shakari
.400 member


Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: Leopard charge. [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #130476 - 26/03/09 12:03 AM

Mate,

Those links, esp the second one are typical examples of instant experts who have spent a few weeks in Africa and read a few books, thinking they know considerably more than they actually do and consequently writing utter bollocks. Sadly, it happens all the time and is one of the main reasons the world is so full of 'part-time agents'.

Whilst I love the PHC books (IMO) most of what he wrote about Leopard hunting wasn't 'entirely accurate' As proof of that, try taking a Mod 12 and trying what PHC claims...... it simply doesn't work..... or at least, it didn't when I tried it. Regarding the first article, the guy quotes PHC but no where does he mention shooting a Leopard himself, let alone following it up with a shotgun.

In the second article, the author waffles a lot a quotes lots of second hand stories but admits to only ever having hunted 1 Leopard and makes no mention of a follow up at all, let alone a follow up on a wounded Leopard. Yet another instant bloody expert.

Let's try a little experiment using the people who have posted on, have read or will read this thread.

Hands up all those who have hunted a Leopard, wounded and then followed it up with only shotguns and subsequently killed it without any injuries to the hunting party.

Believe me buddy, following up a wounded Leopard is one of the scariest and most dangerous things you can do and I'd bet a pound to a pinch of the brown stuff that the vast majority of (wounded) Leopard follow ups using only shotguns result in serious injuries to the hunters.

Like I said, I don't care what others use but I'll stick to my 500 every time.

Those comments were not intended to offend and I sincerely hope they haven't.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



Edited by shakari (26/03/09 02:22 AM)


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: Leopard charge. [Re: shakari]
      #130480 - 26/03/09 01:39 AM

I for one, sincerely appreciate your posts and experience, Steve. I've never been to Africa, although I have guided in the northern areas & hunted freely throughout most of BC since 1977. From deer to elk, moose, grizzly and of course black bear. None of these animals are candidates for buck shot in my books. Had a hunter showed up to take a deer or black bear with buck - his 'pelter' would have been cased and left in camp - the hunter being tested and trained if necessary, to shoot his game with one of my own rifles before leaving camp for his hunt. To me, shotguns are for birds with fine shot, and bad men with large shot.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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9.3x57
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Re: Leopard charge. [Re: DarylS]
      #130482 - 26/03/09 01:47 AM

Shakari:

Regarding chainsaw pants, etc.

Try the big farm store on Commercialweg in Maritzburg. Haven't been there for 20 years but I bet the outfit still exists.

Also, I bet the Clan Syndicate logging company about 50km north of Maritzburg can get them. If Clan Syndicate still exists. Again...20 years...

I can get all that stuff here in town. I am in a timber town here in logging country.

And for an on-line supply outfit;

http://www.baileysonline.com/

http://www.gemplers.com/list.aspx?SKW=ch...ants|2631402655

Full-wrap pants:

http://www.baileysonline.com/itemdetail.asp?item=164+ORG+RG&catID=

And finally, some ballistic options:

Chest, arm, groin ballistic protection:

http://www.uscav.com/search.aspx?Search=...hreat%20Series!

Some of the light tactical vests are not too restrictive, but the multi-hit heavy sets add thickness at the shoulder making mounting the rifle difficult.

I bet if you start calling around, you can find some law enforcement fellows in Joburg area that can scrounge you up a set to try. The sets designed to be worn under a uniform are much less restrictive than the full torso class II and III sets.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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shakari
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Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: Leopard charge. [Re: 9.3x57]
      #130484 - 26/03/09 02:02 AM

Daryl,

Thanks for those kind words..... I've been in the business one way or another for 29 years this year and Mrs Shakari and I are currently discussing my maybe going into semi retirement from the field. We'll still run the business and I guess I'll still hunt with old friends and clients and maybe keep my hand in with a few cat hunts, but I'll try to let the other (younger) guys take the new clients out. I might try to postpone that until I've made the 30 years though. If I did that, it'd give us time to explore other business opportunities that are suddenly appearing as well.

9.3 x 57

Thanks for the tips. I'll check out my local stores and if I can't find anything, I'll check out the KZN stores when I go down there in about a months time.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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450_366
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Reged: 17/01/07
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Re: Leopard charge. [Re: shakari]
      #130488 - 26/03/09 03:15 AM

I had my pants (stihl) on today and they are only padded on the front half of the legs/chest.
And i think they are constructed to rip apart and tangle the sawchain untill it stops, i dont think they would be so good at protecting agains teeth/stabs. One of those stab shirts would probably be better at that, and not so bloody warm either.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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500Nitro
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Re: Leopard charge. [Re: 450_366]
      #130489 - 26/03/09 03:24 AM


What about some of the Ceramic Bullet proof plates as used by the Military ?

They are designed to be non restrictive.


The only problem I see with then is the claws could get behind them and rip it out.


Just a thought.


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9.3x57
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Re: Leopard charge. [Re: 450_366]
      #130490 - 26/03/09 03:34 AM

450, you are correct.

They are designed to stop the saw.

That's why I added ballistic stuff to my post above.

I think they might be good at stopping scratching or clawing though. Like you I'm not really sure.

The lightweight tactical stuff would be a good start I think.

Also, it's hard for me to see how chainsaw pants would make an attack worse.

It just dawned on me, tho...

I think meat cutters protective clothing would be the ticket.

That stuff is pretty lightweight and might work out best. Gloves, vests are available. I'm not sure about pants.

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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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