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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Muzzleloaders & Blackpowder

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empirevr
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Ok-front stuffers versus cartridge guns.
      #128737 - 04/03/09 06:15 PM

Help me-as a nincompoop-to understand.

Talking single shots, I guess not too much is lost in the cartridge vs muzzle loader scenario.

However, whats the difference between them load wise?? I take it that a percussion gun can take a heavier load than a cartridge gun, no? no action to become loose, no weakness....the only escape is out of the end of the barrel, right?

When they are being loaded, are they ever known to go off while ramrodding?! Or am I just being daft?

Thankyou!

Oh and what would a 6-bore percussion rifle probably have as a load?

Ben


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450_366
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Re: Ok-front stuffers versus cartridge guns. [Re: empirevr]
      #128760 - 05/03/09 06:12 AM

There is a small problem when one cant fire it and must emty a mussle loader also.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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szihn
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Re: Ok-front stuffers versus cartridge guns. [Re: 450_366]
      #128776 - 05/03/09 10:56 AM

Well Ben, it's got to be remembered that many muzzleloaders had iron barrels. Some were steel, and the ones with steel barrels might be very strong or somewhat weak compared to modern gun steel. So if all things were equal, it's true that a muzzleloader can be loaded heavier then a breach loader, but things are not always equal.
I suppose that a newly made breach loading double could be made of steel so strong as to equal a good modern muzzleloading barrel, but I think the point is moot. I am assuming you are speaking of doubles and singles here, because if you were talking about a bolt action your question would not apply. Now there are going to be exceptions. The Ruger #1 for example is so strong that it's almost off the scale in comparison to most other rifles.

#2.
I have never heard of one going off while it was being loaded. I can't see how it would be possible if done in correct order. After all, the cap is placed on last.

And to answer your third question. If you are talking about a 6 bore rifle firing balls I would guess the standard load will be about 300- 350 grains. If you are talking about a bullet gun I would have to guess it to be about 265-300 grains.
However, there were very wide variation in loads back in those old days too, so these are just averages.

I hope this is all helpful


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empirevr
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Re: Ok-front stuffers versus cartridge guns. [Re: szihn]
      #128823 - 06/03/09 04:33 AM

Thanks

I meant in the sense that all old guns come in old condition.....cartridge and muzzlers alike. Point is if in reasonable condition, there is less to think about,no? no loose action worries etc....and thus the gun would be very difficult to 'blow'? no?

Thanks


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Ok-front stuffers versus cartridge guns. [Re: empirevr]
      #128831 - 06/03/09 06:20 AM

Interesting question(s) & different ways of looking at them.

2 guns - similar calibre we'll say - the ctg. gun is pretty much restricted to how much powder the case will hold along with a bullet. The muzzleloader does not have that restriction and can be loaded with more powder - that's a given.

For instance - a .577 BPE is restricted to about 160gr. of powder with a 650gr. bullet. In a muzzleloader, there is a loss of pressure at the breech but could be loaded with an approriate sized bullet - same weight and 200gr. of powder which would increase it's performance over the BPE.

For instance, comparing a 16 bore BP rifle shooting round ball, the same situation happens. My 2.450" brass cases will hold 160gr. of 2F, a wad and round ball. I could easily shoot more powder than that in a muzzleloader - but why?

Most muzzle loaders of the day had much stronger breeches than a ctg. gun. The breech of the 1855 H Whall .75 ball and shot gun I borrowed for a shoot a few years back, had a damascus breech almost 1.4 across the flats, while an 1860 12 or 11 bore ctg. gun made of damascus has no where near the size and thus the 'apparent' wall strength of that muzzleloading gun was greater than a sypical breechloader of the same period - yet we will assume both are safe with whatever charge thet can shoot. The muzzleloader will 'admit' to more powder than the ctg. gun & thus would have more power - is it needed?

The deal about loose actions - loose actions must be repaired - generally no problem - on the other hand, being a solid gun so to speak, yes, muzzleloaders don't suffer from loose actions & generally have more power - but - they are a bit slower to load. My 14 bore, shot to shot took 8 seconds to load and shoot - ctg. guns are quicker and have all the powder necessary - but not the appeal of a similar muzzleloader - that opinion is biased . Some ctg. guns can be loaed with an empty, primed case (not advisable - but they can), then upended, breech locked, hammer at 1/2 bent and loaded as a muzzleloader. Guys have done this with .45/70's and loaded them as it they were .45 3-1/4" by loading them from the muzzle - grooved lubricated or paper patched bullets. Paul Mathews gun smith did this very thing, and used thumb tacks as targets at 100 yards. Still, a properly made .45 cal. muzzleloading ctg. gun could be loaded with even more powder, but I wouldn't advise it, nor would I advise loading that way - but it was done.

The North American Indians were known to have loaded in this manner at times of having no fixed ammo using a Springfield where a single case was primed with modified percussion caps for primers. The Maynard breech loading rifle, made in the US of A in the 1860's, used fixed ctgs or .35 to .50 cal, but also had a primming case (lower part of a case) that could be pimed, inserted and the gun loaded as a muzzleloader. Any powder charge desired could be used or any weight of bullet desired, making it as powerful as any of the later to come, .50 BPE or .50 3-1/4" Sharps - of course, the 5 1/2 pound Maynard might kick a bit.

I don't know if this has anything to do with anything, but there it is.

Odd questions, Ben.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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empirevr
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Re: Ok-front stuffers versus cartridge guns. [Re: DarylS]
      #128879 - 06/03/09 07:20 PM

Very informative Daryl, thankyou very much.

Ok so my reasoning might seem daft, but it is based in reason I assure you!

I usually look at guns of 100+ years of age, as you know. I love hammer guns, and as a rule old guns full stop. Better fit finish quality.....everything, just as with God knows how much else.....cars, tools, even shoes.....I used to find bits of Victorian shoes in Cornwall on the farm, they SURE dont make things as they used to. I also use a little import for trimming anything up to 1.5" branches.....a 100 year old briar hook. Made in England all that time ago.

Anyway-these old guns come with issues usually, and also in cartridge format at very high prices. A similar muzzle loader is often 1/10th of the price!!! And yet even if slower, it comes without the risk of many problems that the cartridge gun comes with.

Alas, I am not thinking of power....I am thinking of strength! I wish to know that I can fire the loads it was designed for over and over without any eventual issues-such as loosening.

Question; How the hell does one keep the chamber area and chamber end of the barrel clean inside??? How do you check for corrosion internally??

Thanks

Ben


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Ok-front stuffers versus cartridge guns. [Re: empirevr]
      #128926 - 07/03/09 04:00 AM

Bore scopes are used to check internally. There is only so much - and sometimes, quite a bit, that can be learned with a lubricated, tight fitting patch.
On a muzzleloading gun, the breech should be pulled to get a good look, full length. If that cannot be done, then a bore scope - if not available, then dropping a small low powered flashligth down the bore and looking can work - as well as the tight patch on a jag mounted rod will tell lots, is one knows what to 'feel' for. Roughness, expansion (generally see that on the outside as well) rings causing short loose spots - crunchy badly corroded areas - ya know, the usual stuff.
If a muzzleloader looks good on the outside, chances are it's been well taken care of. There is very much less chance it had an outside overhaul to trick the buyer, as is done so often with ctg. guns.

Being older and of less 'desirability'(marketability) on the market, muzzleloaders are usually sold 'as is'. What a buy!

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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empirevr
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Re: Ok-front stuffers versus cartridge guns. [Re: DarylS]
      #128960 - 07/03/09 07:32 PM

Well as you can see the barrel gleams-its iron and steel mix, Damascus no?- but the gun is worn otherwise. I dont understand how.

http://auctions.holtandcompany.co.uk/asp...6&saletype=

She needs work, but their antique gun expert says she should be fine to fire.

Ben


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Ok-front stuffers versus cartridge guns. [Re: empirevr]
      #128986 - 08/03/09 02:42 AM

I'd like to own it and for damn sure, I'd be shooting it after a bit of 'touch-up' work - forend, re-due the crack in the wrist if possible to make it less obvious. Not often you see a ML in that condition around here. Here's a picture of an 11 bore H Whall I shoot - note it's condtion. The bore has the same ah, er, Patina, as the outside - it's rough., but shoots very well. Won 2nd place in a smoothbore round ball, vs. steel gong match with it.

This gun is of more 'normal' condition for such guns found in collections around here. The owner wouldn't sell it for $1,000. I wouldn't, either.



--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (08/03/09 02:47 AM)


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empirevr
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Re: Ok-front stuffers versus cartridge guns. [Re: DarylS]
      #128994 - 08/03/09 05:20 AM

Thanks again Daryl....

Guy at the auction was not optimistic about it.......due to the little bits wrong with it. I feel its my chance of getting a big one and tidying it up and getting it shooting again.

There is an Alex Henry same cal on there for 3000-6000!!! But then it is immaculate.

Was the gun made at 12 lbs to make it more portable? Apparently it has come out of Africa.

Best wishes

Ben


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Ok-front stuffers versus cartridge guns. [Re: empirevr]
      #128996 - 08/03/09 08:03 AM

Too many threads of the same topic.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Longknife
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Re: Ok-front stuffers versus cartridge guns. [Re: DarylS]
      #129965 - 19/03/09 02:52 AM

quote] I have never heard of one going off while it was being loaded. I can't see how it would be possible if done in correct order. After all, the cap is placed on last.




I HAVE heard of muzzle loaders going off while being loaded!!! This is why we always load from a powder measure and NEVER pour straight in to the barrel from a horn or flask. A hot ember Could ignite the charge while loading. Now to relate the incident I do know about!! I was not present when this happened but a friend was loading his 20 ga. smoothbore, after fireing several times. He premeasured the charge, poured it down the barrel, started the patched ball (just like he had been doing for the last 35 years). When he rammed the ball home with the ram rod, the charge ignited, the ramrod wad shot out of the barrel along with the ball. Luckily he did not have his hands cupped over the ram rod or have the muzzle pionted toward him or any one else. His hands were only slightly scorched from the blast!!!! This was a flintlock, frizzen open, hammer down. Apparently the rush of air heated up the residue in the barrel enough to ignite the charge. This is a TRUE incident!!! Always load from a powder measure, never cup your hand over the ram rod, do not lean over the muzzle, keep it pointed in a safe direction!!!!If possible wait ample time between shots for the barrel to cool or swab berween shots, because it COULD happen!!!!!!!!I KNOW!!!!!!Ed

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Longknife


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Ok-front stuffers versus cartridge guns. [Re: Longknife]
      #129978 - 19/03/09 06:18 AM

Ed's right- it's possible - I've seen it myself - very bad burns on the fellows hand.

I've never heard of it happening with a heavy denim patch that is properly lubed and used along with a ball that is only .005" smaller than the bore.

If you shoot any sort of wads or limp-wristed ball/patch combinations, they perhaps you should swab between shots.

If you shoot, for instance, a .445" ball in a.45 rifle, with a.022" denim patch "properly lubricated", you will never have an ember left in the bore.

As longknife said - NEVER pour powder directly into a bore from a flask or horn - that's just plain stupid and asking for a freak accident. Anyone who does that is probably on a 'short list' to the ever-after. The Lord give us choices - you can choose that short list - or not - it's up to you. Just because some buffalo runners loaded that way does not make it OK for you. They also spit balls into the muzzle from their mouth-full of balls. I wouldn't advise that one either - the carrying nor the delivery system. Lots of those guys died becasue of their stupidity.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Kaimiloa
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Re: Ok-front stuffers versus cartridge guns. [Re: empirevr]
      #130536 - 26/03/09 04:17 PM

Ben, usually the barrel gleams because some wag has taken a wire brush to it, often a POWER wire brush. Or sanding paper. Great for removing rust and everything else - like the engraving! Note that on the gun pictured the rear sight appears to either have been taken out, or replaced - but reversed when put in its dovetail. The longer leaf should be to the front, otherwise it tends to fall forward while you walk about with the muzzle down in usual fashion, and you end up shooting with the wrong sight - right over your target.
I'm with Daryl, would love to have that gun.
Aloha, Ka'imiloa

--------------------
Few pleasures exceed restoring a nice old gun and returning it to shooting and hunting.


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Ok-front stuffers versus cartridge guns. [Re: Kaimiloa]
      #130574 - 27/03/09 02:56 AM

Had another look at that 6 bore- Yes- I'd own it in a heart-beat.

Good pickup on the rear sight put in wrong, Kaimiloa - I didn't even notice - that it had a sight was all I saw. Yes,needs a bit of work- but very little.

At the prices listed, and if the bore was absolutely toasted, it would still be a steal - I'd turn it into a 5 bore smooth-bore in about an hour's work.(but of course, i'd take my time - maybe 2 hours. [;)]

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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empirevr
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Re: Ok-front stuffers versus cartridge guns. [Re: DarylS]
      #130659 - 27/03/09 10:28 PM

Well Daryl someone beat me to it.....

I did get a long list of small added faults too about 2 days after placing my bid though. Grip has two cracks, not one. Re-stock job really.

Weight is 11.3 lbs which seems ridiculously light.....no wonder the stock cracked!

The other mint Alex Henry 6-bore went unsold! Bet its 15 lbs odd......

Ah well lets see what happens with the next auction.

Ben


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Dphariss
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Re: Ok-front stuffers versus cartridge guns. [Re: szihn]
      #130671 - 28/03/09 01:05 AM

Quote:



#2.
I have never heard of one going off while it was being loaded. I can't see how it would be possible if done in correct order. After all, the cap is placed on last.





Back in the 60s a guy shot himself through the hand/wrist with a ball and rod of a pistol he was loading.
Examination showed excess fouling in the breech that trapped a "spark". Pistol had been shot extensively and not thoroughly cleaned.
I believe a shotgun fired due to the same cause but the guy somehow escaped injury.
I know the pistol was at Friendship shotgun too I think.
I suspect it has happened other places as well.

Dan


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