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CardiacDoc
.224 member


Reged: 02/01/04
Posts: 12
Recoil Pad for a new .470NE
      #12498 - 26/03/04 12:16 PM

Hi,
I will be getting a new custom .470NE double which is being
started as we speak. Without going into the pluses and minuses of a .470NE, the wood will be Turkish Walnut,
POW grip with metal cap, and I was trying to figure-out what kind of recoil pad would
be well suited for both the double and I. I like leather
covered, however the actual "pad" is the priority, then
the cosmetics. What about the "tube filled" pads? What are they filled with? Or are plain better? All I currently have are toe and heel metal, plain rubber, and leather covered; for both shotguns and double rifles.
I would prefer to be able to shoot for a while at a range,
and then out for a hunt realistically one week per year-with this double.

Any specifics?
1. Make:
2. Model #:
3. Where to purchase?
4. Approximate pricing in USD$?

Any ideas would be great! I appreciated the comments on the optical scopes!
Thanks,
CardiacDoc



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Holmes
.300 member


Reged: 01/12/03
Posts: 159
Loc: Wyoming, USA
Re: Recoil Pad for a new .470NE [Re: CardiacDoc]
      #12508 - 26/03/04 01:22 PM

I really like the Pachymar Magnum recoil pad for the big bangers. I think it's the FP990. Not sure if you can leather wrap it as it is a side vented pad with a lot of compression.

My other favourite for the med/large calibres is the Pachymar Deccelerator. This is a great looking pad that leather wraps quite nicely. A very durable pad as well.

Here is a link to a thread about leather wrapping your own pad:

www.huntamerica.com/wwwthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB8&Number=205060&page=&view=&sb=&o=&fpart=1&vc=1

Both pads are available from Brownells. Their URL is:

www.brownells.com

Good luck.


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CardiacDoc
.224 member


Reged: 02/01/04
Posts: 12
mercury tubes... [Re: Holmes]
      #12516 - 26/03/04 02:46 PM



www.students.dsu.edu/coxs/ballistics.htm

"A mercury tube can also be installed into the butt of the rifle. This is a tube about the size and shape of a cigar. The tube is filled about halfway up with mercury, and acts as a shock absorber. A hole is drilled into the stock, the tube is inserted and held in by the recoil pad. This tube costs around $40, and costs about another $20 to have a gunsmith do the work. The angle the tube is installed into the stock will make a difference; I recommend breaking down and paying a 'smith to do the install. The downside of the merc tube is it weighs around 8 ounces; it will alter the balance of the rifle (may or may not be a good thing), and it increases the weight of the rifle."

Any feelings about this?
Thanks,
CardiacDoc



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Holmes
.300 member


Reged: 01/12/03
Posts: 159
Loc: Wyoming, USA
Re: mercury tubes... [Re: CardiacDoc]
      #12521 - 26/03/04 03:52 PM

I have a mrecury tube in the stock of my 500 NE Ruger #1. It slipped right in the factory hole for the attachment bolt. (I added 1.5 wraps of electrician's tape to insure a snug fit)

Quite honestly, I do not see any reduction in recoil when using a mercury tube as compared to using a homemade weight tube contructed of copper pipe, epoxy, and small shotshell shot.

I've tried the 500 with both systems and I cannot feel any kind of dramatic difference.

Balance seems more important with regard to felt recoil, especially if you plan to shoot from a bench at all for load work.

Whenever I modify a rifle for balance, I place the arm upon a homemade stand with a fulcrum that allows me to add various weights to the rear of the stock until I determine what weight I need to achieve the balance point I desire.

I start by adding long fishing weights. They are pliable and can be placed upon the stock easily. When I need lighter ballasts for fine tuning, I use little rice-filled zip lock bags. (the kind you get little gun parts in from suppliers) Once the rifle balances where I want it, I weigh all the fishing weights and rice bags to get a total weight for my plug.

Once I have determined the amount of weight I need to add, I build a plug using the copper pipe method. I take a 4 or 5" piece of this pipe and place it on my scale with a piece of waxpaper separating the two. I have already pre-weighed my shot and pipe to get an idea where I'm at. I also weigh an appropriately sized nut that will be added to facillitate removal of the plug for disassembly if necessary.

Pour a little epoxy into the pipe and let it settle to the bottom. (the pipe is standing on end against the waxpaper on the scale.) Place the nut aside but on the scale so it's weight is included. Now add a bit of the shot followed by more epoxy. Gently tamp with a small dowel or other tool to compact and disperse the shot amongst the epoxy. Keep going until you near the top where you will be adding the nut. Coat the inside threads of the nut with wax or whatever light grease you have available so the epoxy doesn't violate the threads. Insert the nut into the end of the pipe and finish filling the void with straight epoxy. Your finished tube should be very close to your target weight. Carefully remove the tube from the scale, set aside and allow at least 24 hours to dry. Longer is better as this adhesive is in a very dense form with no atmosphere to allow solvent release which is necessary to the curing process. I generally wait 72 hours just to be sure.

If the pipe you have used is slightly loose in the stock hole, the electrical tape will work fine as a fitment shim. Use a wrap at each end to avoid binding. And.... be sure to install the plug with the nut staring you in the face so you can use a long bolt to remove it in the future if you have the need.

The process is easier than it sounds, just a bit time consuming. I've balanced most of my arms now and I'm so pleaased with the results I question my sanity for not doing it sooner!

Good luck and feel free to query further.


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500grains
.416 member


Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: mercury tubes... [Re: Holmes]
      #12533 - 26/03/04 10:07 PM

Doc,

On the pad I suggest a pachmyr old English. The F990 is butt ugly and will not look good on your double.

As for mercury tubes, they work great in bolt actions and single shots. There is liquid mercury in the tube which provides an inertial counterweight to movement of the rifle rearward during recoil.

I am not sure how a merucy tube would affect a double however. Keep in mind that a double will still have one lock cocked while in recoil after the first shot. Could the inertial countereffect cause the second barrel to discharge? That's probably something to check with your gun's manufacturer before installing a mercury tube.


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mickey
.416 member


Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: mercury tubes... [Re: 500grains]
      #12545 - 27/03/04 02:15 AM

I would question the effect of spreading out the recoil that the mercury does upon regulation.

Some rifles seem impervious to messing with in regards to regulation. Add a scope, change recoil pads, add weight etc. They still shoot the same. Others are very senstive and even the slightest change will affect the accuracy.

By ading the mercury aren't you taking a chance that your rifle will shoot different (a) because of added weight and (b) by prolonging the recoil?

I don't know the answer and I have asked a couple of rifle builders and they don't seem to sure either. Anyone here actually used them in a Double? Doesn't Merkel or someone use them in their rifles?



--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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475Guy
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Reged: 22/08/03
Posts: 1088
Loc: Kali, US
Re: mercury tubes... [Re: mickey]
      #12584 - 27/03/04 12:58 PM

My old Merkel had lead in the butt stock. I believe it was Rogue River who put in mercury recoil reducers in their doubles. You know, the folks who fucked up the Rigby name in America?

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.


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atkinson6
.375 member


Reged: 26/01/04
Posts: 678
Loc: Idaho
Re: mercury tubes... [Re: 475Guy]
      #12669 - 28/03/04 08:10 AM

I still use the old Silvers pads from Jeffs Outfitters or Galazans..The are so much nicer and easier to leather cover..and are the most clean, pretty pad on the market as they finish up smoother than the rest.

I still think Jack Belk had a point when he said a soft pad just gives the gun a running start at your shoulder!

I never have suffered from shoulder pain or bruising, rather a smak in the cheek, the middle finger hit, a snap of my head,and neck pain (bursitas from shooting) have been my nemises..I guess my old shoulder is grisseld from shooting...


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mickey
.416 member


Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: mercury tubes... [Re: atkinson6]
      #12672 - 28/03/04 08:25 AM

Ray

I'm not sure you and Jack aren't right. I have a 9.3x74R. a 450/400 3 1/4 and a 404 Jeffery that are all 'bald'. I don't see the difference between them and a similar rifle with a Silvers pad. I have only one rifle with a Pachmayer Decelerator, a 375 Win. and it isn't a whole lot different than a than one with a Winchester pad.

Once the brain decides it won't hurt recoil ceases to be an issure.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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atkinson6
.375 member


Reged: 26/01/04
Posts: 678
Loc: Idaho
Re: mercury tubes... [Re: mickey]
      #12739 - 29/03/04 07:32 AM

Thats right and you don't have to convience me, plus the fact that I like that little tit on the top of the pad inletted into the stock, gives a bit of class to a stock and those harder pads sure do take the tight leather better....

If you hold a gun snug a recoil pad is of no particular use IMO....Lots more things I dislike about recoil than shoulder punch, which is the least of my concerns.....My second knuckle, my cheek and the head snap, and even jaw snap with some big bores, are my concerns. Makes money for Tylenol Inc.


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475Guy
.400 member


Reged: 22/08/03
Posts: 1088
Loc: Kali, US
Re: mercury tubes... [Re: atkinson6]
      #12753 - 29/03/04 09:43 AM

Gotta agree with the O'guy on this. I have hard recoil pads put on my Rugers and had one on my Merkel. In fact, I'm very partial to red recoil pads on any kicker. The red recoil pads just looks a bit better. This is especially striking when it contrasts with some good stick.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.


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500grains
.416 member


Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: mercury tubes... [Re: 475Guy]
      #12761 - 29/03/04 02:36 PM

I don't know what kind of dope you guys are smoking, but those damn red recoil pads hurt like hell! I will take a nice quality sorbethane pad anytime, thank you.

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475Guy
.400 member


Reged: 22/08/03
Posts: 1088
Loc: Kali, US
Re: mercury tubes... [Re: 500grains]
      #12765 - 29/03/04 03:06 PM

Everytime I've ever tried a soft pad, it would just get a good running start at me. One time I was shooting somebody else's 375 RUM on a converted Mauser, I became almost crippled for a week. It was because of the soft recoil pad that allowed complete compression and I felt the wood stock at the bottom of the compression. Talk about taking dope, I had to get Cortisone shots and the biggest Motrin horse pills they had to get mobile again.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.


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Dark_Helmet
.333 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 399
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska, USA
Re: mercury tubes... [Re: 475Guy]
      #12778 - 30/03/04 02:11 AM

I find that the shoulder-slap is the most difficult part of recoil to deal with.. now, I've never been beyond my 8.5lb 375H&H, so that's a bit less than you guys, but everything else that Ray mentions has been a non-issue (well, except the whole jaw-smack... but that was a one-time lesson I learned QUICKLY).

my upper back and neck are pretty strong, and I've got some royally hosed-up rotator-cuffs. however, I would also note that proper fit of the rifle is several dozen times more important than any recoil pad could be!

good example: my 20ga Ithica 500 o/u (field) will tag you good if its not JUST right to the shoulder. my 12ga Ithica 700 o/u (trap) is a total pussy-cat... both have recoil pads of similar design, and are within 5-years or so on age.

for me at least, the guns with more LOP seem to be much less fatiquing to shoot... don't really know why, as I don't especially have an exaggerated frame (5-9, 180, mostly torso)

--------------------
_________________________________________________________________
When someone says a rifle is "ugly," what they really mean is "push feed."

-me

(long live the Mauser 98!)

Edited by dasMafia (30/03/04 02:14 AM)


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RobertD
.275 member


Reged: 16/11/03
Posts: 67
Loc: East Bay, CA, USA
Re: Recoil Pad for a new .470NE [Re: CardiacDoc]
      #12821 - 31/03/04 02:02 AM

Hey Guys,

Picking a recoil pad is not a simple thing that most folks think it to be. A soft pad, like a Kickeez, converts recoil energy into heat as it compresses; it works fine until it bottoms out. A harder rubber pad doesn't absorb recoil in the same manner as a Kickeez, but is less likely to bottom out.

Clearly, soft pads allow the rifle to move backwards farther, so recoil is spread out over a longer timeframe but it increases the likelihood that the scope will smack you in the eye. Hard pads don't compress as much, so more recoil is felt on your shoulder in a smaller amount of time but scopes are held farther away from your eye.

In order to select the most optimum pad, one has to consider the weight of the rifle, the total energy dumped into the pad, the acceleration of the rifle, and the square inches of pad resting against the shoulder. Then, one can chose the best pad density, softness, and thickness.

Clearly, the next question you are going to ask is, how do I do that? Well, some of this is pretty easy, the hard part is determining the variables of the pad once you know all the recoil numbers.

Perhaps, some of the mechanical engineers on this board can answer that question. I am an electrical engineer, I can tell you what the variables are, the way to select the pad, and the density of the pad, but I never learned how to calculate energy dissipated due to the compression effects of the pad.

I can tell you this however: I switched from a 3/4 inch hard rubber pad on my 416 Rigby to a 1 1/8 inch soft Kickeez pad and the felt recoil was much much worse. It was only when I sat down and really thought about the problem that I began to see the light of day. For my rifle, that pad would have to be about 2 inches thick in order for it to work properly.

Ideally, recoil pad manufacturers should sell pads based upon the weight of the rifle, the caliber it is chambered for, and square inches of pad against the shoulder. It could be done with a simple 2D table.

RobertD

--------------------
NRA Life Member
CRPA Life Member
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"Time is never found, if you want time for something, you have to make it."


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475Guy
.400 member


Reged: 22/08/03
Posts: 1088
Loc: Kali, US
Re: Recoil Pad for a new .470NE [Re: RobertD]
      #12823 - 31/03/04 04:20 AM

RD, that would be too easy. The pad makers are in the business of selling more recoil pads and push the softer pads all the time. In fact, almost all the pads in the past were vent-rib abominations pushed on the public.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.


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RobertD
.275 member


Reged: 16/11/03
Posts: 67
Loc: East Bay, CA, USA
Re: Recoil Pad for a new .470NE [Re: 475Guy]
      #13003 - 04/04/04 06:46 AM

475 Guy: Yep! you could be right on this one.

But, lets also consider that they will make what sells. I have a gunsmith here that puts a Kickeez on everything, regardless of weight or rifle or caliber. In fact, he recommended that I put the thick Kickeez on the Rigby, which was clearly a mistake.

The pad manufacturers may know what to do, but they can only make what is going to sell. To do differently, is to fold.

Hmmm, I am thinking I might be able to figure this out using the basic formulas in physics and control system theory. I might have to give that a try.

RobertD

--------------------
NRA Life Member
CRPA Life Member
SCI Golden Gate Member

"Time is never found, if you want time for something, you have to make it."


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ThomasEdwards
.300 member


Reged: 04/01/04
Posts: 246
Loc: Newport Beach, CA
Re: Recoil Pad for a new .470NE [Re: RobertD]
      #13081 - 06/04/04 05:07 AM

...intrigued by your observations...are you then saying that the ruger rsm hard rubber recoil pad may, in fact, be appropriate for .416 rigby-class scoped calibres?...my gumsmith highly touts the red necg recoil pads...any thoughts on this?...tia...

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475Guy
.400 member


Reged: 22/08/03
Posts: 1088
Loc: Kali, US
Re: Recoil Pad for a new .470NE [Re: ThomasEdwards]
      #13089 - 06/04/04 05:57 AM

The pad that is on a RSM is a bit thin. I've replaced all of mine with the red hard pads 1 1/2" thick. With the 375, it just made it softer to shoot. With the other big guys, it made it much more bearable on the bench and with Hartz recoil reducers in the butt, extended sessions are possible without Motrin.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.


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RobertD
.275 member


Reged: 16/11/03
Posts: 67
Loc: East Bay, CA, USA
Re: Recoil Pad for a new .470NE [Re: ThomasEdwards]
      #13112 - 06/04/04 12:15 PM

ThomasEdwards: What I am saying is that you will have to try it and see if you like it better than the original.

It pays to experiment, it may be much better, it may not be. Just don't trash your old pad until you determine if you like the new one or not.

That is the mistake I made with my 416 - I put the old pad on my kids rifle when I put the new thick Kickeez on the 416. When I discovered I didn't like it, it was too late!

RobertD


--------------------
NRA Life Member
CRPA Life Member
SCI Golden Gate Member

"Time is never found, if you want time for something, you have to make it."


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ThomasEdwards
.300 member


Reged: 04/01/04
Posts: 246
Loc: Newport Beach, CA
Re: Recoil Pad for a new .470NE [Re: RobertD]
      #13125 - 06/04/04 05:18 PM

...good advice, tho i am beginning to think that the english-style shooting rests (standing) may be an answer to big bore recoil problems...too bad most public ranges lack such facilities...

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mickey
.416 member


Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: Recoil Pad for a new .470NE [Re: ThomasEdwards]
      #13168 - 07/04/04 10:45 AM

I built one last summer that will sit on an existing bench or on it's own detachable legs. Next time I use it I will take some pics. It works very well and is as stable and accurate as sitting.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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