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empirevr
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What ballistics will this load produce please guys?
      #128026 - 25/02/09 05:25 PM

This is a rather plain .577 2 3/4" but with excellent barrels with an excellent bore. Comes cased with targets shot with nitro for black loads. The owner settled on 78 grains of 4198 with a 560 gr. Hawk soft copper jacketed bullet.

http://www.vintagedoubles.com/inventory....ages/1067_4.jpg

Thanks!

Ben

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: What ballistics will this load produce please guys? [Re: empirevr]
      #128047 - 26/02/09 12:01 AM

That's a stout load, depending on which brand of 4198. H4198 seems much slower than IMR4198 in my experience. This will really smack something. I would be interested to know the velocity.

You really have to be aware of the differences in 4198.

In my A. Henry I loaded 72.5 IMR4198 (the old IMR before Hodgdon bought the company) behind a 560 grain paper patched lead bullet and got 1746 fps.

Then with newer IMR4198, made under Hodgdon's ownership, the same load yielded 1683 fps.

The same load, using H4198 yielded 1656 fps.

A load of 76.0 H4198 yielded 1783 fps. I switched to a F215 primer with the H4198 because it seemed to need more fire. I was getting erratic ignition.

I would postulate that a jacketed bullet will develop more pressure than a paper patched lead bullet.

For reference, the original black powder load was:

167 grains black powder, 560 grain bullet, 1740 fps, 10 tons pressure. This is your benchmark, and the load you want to duplicate.

Hope this helps.

The .577 2 3/4" BPE is a real ripper!!!!

Curl

P.S.

I failed to mention this. With each of the above loads I filled the excess space with three 24ga. 3/8" felt wads. It's absolutely necessary to use some type of filler to take up the air space.

Recently I bought a coil of 5/8" backer rod, and I plan to try it instead of felt. Haven't done it yet.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



Edited by CptCurl (26/02/09 12:17 AM)

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: What ballistics will this load produce please guys? [Re: CptCurl]
      #128048 - 26/02/09 12:29 AM

I'll say one more word of caution.

Don't take any of these figures at face value. You MUST begin with reduced loads and work up, using a chronograph to verify your results. To do otherwise is to invite disaster.

I would not trust the load quoted from the former owner. You don't know his loading practices and safety standards. Don't trust my loads in another rifle, either.

If ever there is a time when loading safety must be observed it is when you are developing loads for a 120 year old antique. The rifle deserves this respect, as do your face and fingers!

Good luck,
Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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DarylS
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Re: What ballistics will this load produce please guys? [Re: CptCurl]
      #128074 - 26/02/09 05:16 AM

ANY 4198 is a poor powder for nitro for black loads- especially that much of it in my opinion. I've had much better results with H4895 and there are other ones which will work, of course. I just find 4895 to be better - again, Hodgdon 4895, not IMR4895.


Curl - Ben isn't a handloader - or at least wasn't a few months ago - so has little or no knowledge about handloading practises.

In order to shoot that rifle, Ben would have to buy the ammo or have someone load for him - or learn to load and buy all the equipment. In the 2nd case, would someone go through the starting load, and work up WITH him? Doubtful - and the result could be a terrible accident.

I sincerly wish Ben the best in whatever he does - that rifle certainly would be a nice addition to one's locker - but - ammo is a consideration, who loads it and with what?

The owner lists 1,850fps for the jacketed bullets. In my shooting with modern, larger bores, I usually find jacketed bullets to deliver approximately 100fps less velcity at higher pressure than the same load with a cast, grooved lubricated bullet. Paper patched bullets would give similar or identical results to the grooved bullets.

So, what does this revelation mean? - If the velocity of 1,850fps is an actual chronographed velocity and not a guess, then 75gr. ?4198 in that rifle, would give approximatly 1,900 to 1,950fps with a cast bullet, which is 200fps higher than the load the rifle was designed for. Yes - in that rifle, if certainly seems excessive.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (26/02/09 05:25 AM)

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doubleriflejack
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Re: What ballistics will this load produce please guys? [Re: empirevr]
      #128097 - 26/02/09 10:06 AM

Ben, on the website you gave, regarding this BPE, I noticed that the writing on the target they showed on the website, said that he used a load of 75 grains, while he said, below target, that they settled on a load of 78 grains, so I cannot help but wonder if the 78 grains quoted is in error?
Daryl, I don't agree with you regarding 4198. I have been using it for numerous years, and in my opinion, 4198 is the best powder, by far, for nito for black handloads. The article in Double gun Journal, I think by Sherman Bell, if I recall correctly, testing various powders for such use, including actual pressures produced from the use of such powders, in pressure measuring gun, should convince anyone of just how good 4198 is for such use, nitro for black. That article should be read by everyone prior to deciding what powder is best to use for such loads, and, after that, I cannot understand why anyone would use anything but 4198. In all of my British black powder rifles, I have found that powder to give the best velocity and accuracy over any other powder, and I have tried most all powders thought to be appropriate, so have trouble understanding why anyone would not want to use 4198 as nitro for black propellent. In addition, Ross Seyfried has written numerous articles in Double Gun Jounal and Hanloading magazine, and, in my opinion too, he truly "knows his stuff," and he too suggests the use of 4198 for nitro for black handloads.

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: What ballistics will this load produce please guys? [Re: doubleriflejack]
      #128100 - 26/02/09 10:40 AM

Daryl,

As your post implies, the rifle that is the subject of this thread is not something that a non-handloader would want to own.

The non-handloader should buy a Merkel or Chapuis chambered in 9.3x74R and forget any notion of stuffing shells in a black powder antique.

Jack,

Don't overlook Varget. It is quite useful in some N-for-B loads, although it doesn't work in all of them.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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DarylS
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Re: What ballistics will this load produce please guys? [Re: CptCurl]
      #128104 - 26/02/09 11:36 AM

I've always felt that 4198 is a bit 'peaky' with pressures and that the volume per grain was not suitable, which is why I prefer the slower powders.

Concerning the loads - I used the load 75gr. ?4198 as being correct as that is the one listed with the target and the recorded velocity.

I should also say that I respect Ross for his experience and load testing and some other writers, few as those numbers are. I do wish Ross would stay away from writing about muzzleloading rifles though - there, his actual experience is a bit short.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (26/02/09 11:39 AM)

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: What ballistics will this load produce please guys? [Re: DarylS]
      #128111 - 26/02/09 12:51 PM

Ross has some good information, but he's not the Oracle of Delphi.

He went way down in my estimation when he wrote that stupid article about hunting an elk with that little Webley single shot rook rifle chambered for the .455 Eley. I have hunted elk many years, taken a couple, and I know just how brutally tough they can be. They are magnificant animals who deserve greater compassion than to be hunted with a rifle that nobody would even think of hunting wild pigs with.

I have fumed about that article since it appeared. Now I have gotten it off my chest.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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empirevr
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Re: What ballistics will this load produce please guys? [Re: CptCurl]
      #128136 - 26/02/09 05:53 PM

Ok thankyou chaps very good.....

Personally, I have Kynamco in mind for these guns. Sure its dear, but this would never be a 'daily popper' for me at all.

-My question was based upon the risk that the previous owner had been putting the gun through too much stress, or that it was made for a heavy load.

Do 577 loads differ? it seems so....regulated for lighter or heavier loads, no? Can the old guns use loads such as Marrakai's Greener conversion??

Thankyou!

Ben

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Marrakai
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Re: What ballistics will this load produce please guys? [Re: empirevr]
      #128166 - 26/02/09 11:20 PM

Ben:
In Australia we pretty-much subscribe to the philosophy in Graeme Wright's book, that if you match published 'factory' velocity from the period with any modern medium or medium/slow powder then you will be operating at much lower peak pressure than the original, and should be quite safe.

Its not that we religiously follow Graeme's book, rather Graeme's book is the compilation of everyone's experiences and pressure-tested loads 'down-under'.

"Can the old guns use loads such as Marrakai's Greener conversion??"
Absolutely!! But as Curl says, work up from below for your own peace of mind. The chronograph is the single most-important piece of reloading equipment for the NE-reloader by far! Do not exceed published velocities of the day with any given bullet weight.

BTW Curl, I would be interested to know which N-for-B cartridge reloads dislike Varget in your experience. I have only found it wanting when barrel-lengths are shorter than 24 inches, and then only because the muzzle-flash is a fire-hazard when hunting!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: What ballistics will this load produce please guys? [Re: Marrakai]
      #128188 - 27/02/09 02:18 AM

Marrakai,

I could not for the life of me make Varget work in my A. Henry .577 2 3/4" BPE. I couldn't get it to burn. The first loads were with a standard WLR primer, and then I tried a Fed215. Still no dice! Very erratic ignition, and the one hangfire I have ever experienced. That was it for me. And my barrels are 28".

You are loading heavier bullets with copper jackets in your .577. That would give a better opportunity for ignition than what I have in mine. My lead bullets are 90 grains lighter, and I suppose they go happily sliding down the barrel on greased paper with much less resistance to the rifling and less inertia from the mass.

On the other hand, when loading N-for-B loads for my .450/.400 3 1/4" I have great success with Varget. And there I'm using a WLR primer. The expansion ratio is much less, and I suppose that accounts for the better burn.

I haven't tried Varget in my .500BPE. IMR4198 seems to work quite well. Nevertheless, I'll give it a try some day when I decide re-inventing the wheel is in order.

Best,
Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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DarylS
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Re: What ballistics will this load produce please guys? [Re: CptCurl]
      #128218 - 27/02/09 06:18 AM

Lead bullets certainly have an easy trip down the bore compared to jacketed, and I can 'see' ignition problems with slower, more difficult to ignite powders.

Some guys have gone to using 'starter' powders to get the burn going. Even in yesteryear, these types of loads were developed. A bit of 3f will help - reduce the main charge about 1gr.smokeless per 3 of BP. It should only take acouple gr.s of black to get the smokeless cooking. Start about 3 or 4gr. grains down from current loads and work back. Just a suggestion. By all means, use a Fed 215 if you want, but a normal mag primer should suffice, like a WW or a CCI. RP 9 1/2 mags are slightly smaller in size if you have tight pockets.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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doubleriflejack
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Re: What ballistics will this load produce please guys? [Re: CptCurl]
      #128233 - 27/02/09 10:15 AM

I too have hunted and killed elk since I was a teen, in Montana, where I was born and raised, and in Oregon, U.S.A., where I now live, and know just how tough these animals are. Have shot them with everything from .30-06 (220 grain bullet) to .375 flanged, and a .416 Rigby---believe me, a .30-06 doesn't kill any too soon and they can run for a very long time, even when hit in the heart! At the same time, you have to know that Seyfried owns a huge ranch in Eastern Oregon, with numerous elk on it, so he got a bit spoiled, I suppose you could say, and enjoys the "sport" of shooting elk with "challenging" rifles. I have hunted and shot elk too, with bow/arrow, so I know what it takes to do that sort of thing properly, and know guys who have even killed elk with big bore air rifles, .45 caliber at around 800 fps, thus such things may not be all that foolish, if done correctly by an experienced hunter! I hate to see a wounded animal get away, and do all I can to see that not happen. I expect that Seyfried, with all his real hunting experience, always does the same. No, I don't know him, am not related to him, and he doesn't pay me to defend him! From what I do know about him, I trust that he knows what he is doing.

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Marrakai
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Re: What ballistics will this load produce please guys? [Re: doubleriflejack]
      #128235 - 27/02/09 10:42 AM

Quote:

Very erratic ignition...in my A. Henry .577 2 3/4" BPE.


Ah yes, now I remember. We were thinking 'wads' at the time as I recall. I'm sure your explanation is accurate; no doubt I get away with murder using 'soft' jacketed bullets in Henry rifling!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: What ballistics will this load produce please guys? [Re: Marrakai]
      #128241 - 27/02/09 11:07 AM

Yeah, you sold me on felt wads, Marrakai.

But soon I intend to try wads cut from a coil of 5/8" diameter backing rod. It's closed cell foam and pretty tough, yet lighter than either Kynoch "store-bought" foam wads or foam wads I make for myself.

I already tried backing rod in my .500BPE (1/2" diameter)









The stuff comes in 20 foot coils, and you just cut off whatever length you need to fill in the case. Very easy and convenient!

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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DarylS
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Re: What ballistics will this load produce please guys? [Re: CptCurl]
      #128311 - 28/02/09 03:50 AM

Good pictures - too bad a brown, bear rug couldn't have been in the background, somehow. I do like to see a cluttered bench - makes me feel at home.

I hadn't thought of the foam coils as a single-piece wad - good thinking - so simple and easy.

Do you put a card on the powder beneath this foam, or foam directly on the powder? Does the powder flame against unprotected foam melt it and coat the bore with 'something'.

Would not a hard card (meant to protect the foam from powder flame) not compress and produce a compressed air space behind the bullet, just as if the foam wasn't there - but of reduced volume, of course?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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DarylS
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Re: What ballistics will this load produce please guys? [Re: Marrakai]
      #128312 - 28/02/09 03:54 AM

Quote:

Ben:
Absolutely!! But as Curl says, work up from below for your own peace of mind. The chronograph is the single most-important piece of reloading equipment for the NE-reloader by far! Do not exceed published velocities of the day with any given bullet weight.



THIS is a MOST important paragraph - one to be heeded by everyone even remotely thinking of reloading. No one should be reloading any ctg. gun without one - Too - they are absolutely necessary for loading a BP rifle with smokeless powers.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: What ballistics will this load produce please guys? [Re: DarylS]
      #128328 - 28/02/09 05:43 AM

Daryl,

No I don't use any kind of wad between the powder and whatever filler is used. That includes dacron, foam wads I cut myself, Kynoch foam wads, this new backer rod, or felt.

I can't take credit for thinking of using backer rod. Somebody else on the forums mentioned it - I think "srose". As soon as I saw mention of it I snatched the idea.

I have only seen backer rod in sizes 3/8", 1/2", and 5/8". The 1/2" is perfect for the .500 straight case. It might work in a .450 straight. The 5/8" works in the .577.

Backer rod is not suited to a bottle neck case, because it is closed-cell foam. It won't compress down and spring back like Kynoch foam or foam wads cut out of sheets.

So far the extent of my experience with it is the 14 rounds of .500BPE you see in the photo above.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Marrakai
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Re: What ballistics will this load produce please guys? [Re: CptCurl]
      #128352 - 28/02/09 02:09 PM

I shall watch the results of your first firing with keen interest, Curl.

That stuff certainly looks the part, lets hope it performs well without reservation.

I have always been mindful of the wide variation in materials used to make 'foam', from rubber through polyurethane to polypropylene etc, and even the brittle 'florist foam', whatever that is, and was never game to experiment myself.

Polyurethane foam seems to be the preferred stuff according to Graeme Wright, it is blasted to granular powder apparently and doesn't burn or melt in the bore. Do you know what that backer-rod is actually made of?

Good luck, mate!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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REN3
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Re: What ballistics will this load produce please guys? [Re: Marrakai]
      #128400 - 01/03/09 05:14 AM

Poly-ethylene foam.

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