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bonanza
.400 member

Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina

H&H Royal 400/375 flanged.
#127774 - 23/02/09 02:06 AM

My gestimation is 270 @ 2150 fps based on the proof 40 gr cordite.

The equates to an optimal game weight of 850 at 100 yards. Would make a useful Deer/Elk or plains game rifle.

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/conten...erarchyId=10473

--------------------

"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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Anonymous
Unregistered

Re: H&H Royal 400/375 flanged. [Re: bonanza]
#127776 - 23/02/09 02:34 AM

I called on that gun a long time ago, it appears it's a 375 2 1/2" but someone needs to cast the chambers to clarify! Cabela's has done jack shit to fix the listing or find out anything about the gun, one of the reasons Cabelas is surely doomed for the long haul in regards to vintage guns..

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xausa
.400 member

Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA

Re: H&H Royal 400/375 flanged. [Re: bonanza]
#127785 - 23/02/09 03:16 AM

The listing refers to the rifle as a 405/375, which presumably is the .405 Winchester necked to .375, which I would not have thought of as a factory round, but the Kynoch ammunition in the case is marked .405/.375. I can find no reference to this cartridge in my rather incomplete reference library. Can anyone explain what it might be?

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Huvius
.416 member

Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3587
Loc: Colorado

Re: H&H Royal 400/375 flanged. [Re: xausa]
#127787 - 23/02/09 04:27 AM

Would it really be that hard for Cabela's to contact H&H and find out the original specs of this gun?
Obviously one of a pair or trio.
It makes me think that some vendors' omission of critical information on guns they offer is a cover for problems. That, or just plain poor salesmanship...

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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bonanza
.400 member

Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina

Re: H&H Royal 400/375 flanged. [Re: Huvius]
#127804 - 23/02/09 08:59 AM

Take a look at the empty cases on the right side off the case. They look like necked done 405 cases. I think this would be a useful thin skin game rifle. Is 30k a decent price for a Royal?

--------------------

"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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Anonymous
Unregistered

Re: H&H Royal 400/375 flanged. [Re: bonanza]
#127806 - 23/02/09 09:33 AM

Quote:

Take a look at the empty cases on the right side off the case. They look like necked done 405 cases. I think this would be a useful thin skin game rifle. Is 30k a decent price for a Royal?

One would have to have the chambers cast to be able to make a useful summation, however, judging by the proof marks it appears to be a 375 2 1/2" originally, which can be made using a necked down 405win case. This calibre is a real mutha to regulate for a double rifle btw.

The gun is not a Royal grade, it is a DeLuxe and would certainly be worth $30,000.00 or more in the right hands.

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500Nitro
.450 member

Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia

Re: H&H Royal 400/375 flanged. [Re: ]
#127807 - 23/02/09 09:37 AM

General

what do you mean by "This calibre is a real mutha to regulate for a double rifle btw." ????

Easy or Hard to regulate ?

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500Nitro
.450 member

Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia

Re: H&H Royal 400/375 flanged. [Re: ]
#127808 - 23/02/09 09:39 AM

Quote:

Quote:

The gun is not a Royal grade, it is a DeLuxe and would certainly be worth $30,000.00 or more in the right hands.

Are you sure ?

It has Royal on the bottom, NOT DeLuxe and from my understanding and from what I have seen, not all Holland's with this engraving are DeLuxe's.

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Anonymous
Unregistered

Re: H&H Royal 400/375 flanged. [Re: 500Nitro]
#127812 - 23/02/09 10:22 AM

Quote:

General

what do you mean by "This calibre is a real mutha to regulate for a double rifle btw." ????

Easy or Hard to regulate ?

Hard to regulate. The last one I had was a Rigby in this chambering, and it was two weeks off and on trying to figure a load out that shot good. But it never shot great.

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Anonymous
Unregistered

Re: H&H Royal 400/375 flanged. [Re: 500Nitro]
#127813 - 23/02/09 10:23 AM

Quote:

Are you sure ? It has Royal on the bottom, NOT DeLuxe and from my understanding and from what I have seen, not all Holland's with this engraving are DeLuxe's.

I believe it to be a deluxe model, the standard Royals of this vintage did not come with this engraving pattern.

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500Nitro
.450 member

Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia

Re: H&H Royal 400/375 flanged. [Re: ]
#127816 - 23/02/09 10:31 AM

375 2 1/2 aren't that hard to regulate IMHO.

Maybe you just had a prick of a gun !!!

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Anonymous
Unregistered

Re: H&H Royal 400/375 flanged. [Re: 500Nitro]
#127817 - 23/02/09 10:34 AM

Quote:

375 2 1/2 aren't that hard to regulate IMHO.

Maybe you just had a prick of a gun !!!

Perhaps, but some fellow collectors I know have had similar issues. I'm glad to hear you had good luck with it though.

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500Nitro
.450 member

Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia

Re: H&H Royal 400/375 flanged. [Re: 500Nitro]
#127818 - 23/02/09 10:34 AM

OK

Who reckons this gun has been restocked ?

Who reckons that the Long Top Strap has been repaired
near the bend in the stock ?

And where did they get a packet of ammo that reads 405/375 ???

Do you think it's been bodgied up and is really 375 2 1/2"
but Cabela's don't know ?

Edited by 500Nitro (23/02/09 01:42 PM)

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470evans
.333 member

Reged: 30/03/05
Posts: 278
Loc: Texas, USA

Re: H&H Royal 400/375 flanged. [Re: 500Nitro]
#127829 - 23/02/09 01:28 PM

I had a chance to see this gun a year or so ago. The rifle has been restocked, a new forend pipe made and the chambers have been cut to 405 Winchester while retaining the 375 bores. There is a one inch binder full of all the correspondence on all that was done to the gun. The prior owner went to the trouble to have ammo boxes made up for the ammo as there never was any factory ammo made in this wildcat. In the binder the owner describes why he cut the chambers as it was too hard to find 375 flanged(?).

It's a nice looking gun and a shame it was altered.

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Anonymous
Unregistered

Re: H&H Royal 400/375 flanged. [Re: 470evans]
#127830 - 23/02/09 03:31 PM

Quote:

I had a chance to see this gun a year or so ago. The rifle has been restocked, a new forend pipe made and the chambers have been cut to 405 Winchester while retaining the 375 bores. There is a one inch binder full of all the correspondence on all that was done to the gun. The prior owner went to the trouble to have ammo boxes made up for the ammo as there never was any factory ammo made in this wildcat. In the binder the owner describes why he cut the chambers as it was too hard to find 375 flanged(?).

It's a nice looking gun and a shame it was altered.

It's a shame these guns sometimes fall into hands better suited for collecting spoons.

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bonanza
.400 member

Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina

Re: H&H Royal 400/375 flanged. [Re: ]
#127855 - 24/02/09 12:00 AM

General,

Was it not uncommon that double rifles were re-bored and re-chambered throughout the ages to by the makers to compensate for obsolete ammo.

Today we think its such a crime because of "collector" value is diminished. If ammo can be made for pennies on the dollar by anyone with a RBCS press and it prints four shots in two inches; if this rifle now becomes more affordable to mere mortals, then I say it was a smart move.

Someone who just buys a rifle, sits on it while it appreciates, then sells it should be collecting spoons. These are weapons meant to be shot.

B.

--------------------

"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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Anonymous
Unregistered

Re: H&H Royal 400/375 flanged. [Re: bonanza]
#127861 - 24/02/09 01:38 AM

Quote:

General,

Was it not uncommon that double rifles were re-bored and re-chambered throughout the ages to by the makers to compensate for obsolete ammo.

Today we think its such a crime because of "collector" value is diminished. If ammo can be made for pennies on the dollar by anyone with a RBCS press and it prints four shots in two inches; if this rifle now becomes more affordable to mere mortals, then I say it was a smart move.

Someone who just buys a rifle, sits on it while it appreciates, then sells it should be collecting spoons. These are weapons meant to be shot.

B.

It depends what you re-bore it to, and if its needed, in this case it was not, and as such was a brainless move.

Anyone who thinks otherwise, has obviously had little experience in handling these guns, whether shooting or collecting.

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JPK
.375 member

Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD

Re: H&H Royal 400/375 flanged. [Re: ]
#127862 - 24/02/09 01:57 AM

So you inspected the chambers before it was rebored and found that they were just fine?

JPK

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bonanza
.400 member

Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina

Re: H&H Royal 400/375 flanged. [Re: ]
#127864 - 24/02/09 02:11 AM

General,

If the only reason was the owner could not find the cases, then I agree, brainless move. I suspect there had to be some other overriding circumstances we don't know about.

I personally own a re-bored re-chambered H&H that now is more versatile, fun and cheap to shoot.

I respect your position that there are collectors who expect these firearms to make some money, and there are owners - like me - who expect them to shoot well.

I'm always amazed by the number of owners who never have taken their rifle to the range to work up a regulation load. That's have the fun!

Cheers;
Blair

--------------------

"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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Anonymous
Unregistered

Re: H&H Royal 400/375 flanged. [Re: bonanza]
#127867 - 24/02/09 03:35 AM

Quote:

So you inspected the chambers before it was rebored and found that they were just fine?

JPK

Not personally, I am relying on what I was told regarding the history of this piece. The summation holds weight in my view however, given the circumstances.

Quote:

General,

If the only reason was the owner could not find the cases, then I agree, brainless move.

Cheers;
Blair

Thank you Blair,
That's what I was told my friend.

Lets consider as well, the gentlemen went to the trouble of making a fake case label, and ammo cover. I think that sums it up as to what kind of mind were discussing.

The rifle has inherent value, my point is that it's a damn shame someone went to these drastic lengths when it appears it was not needed.

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SharpsNitro
.375 member

Reged: 12/08/08
Posts: 729
Loc: Arizona, USA

Re: H&H Royal 400/375 flanged. [Re: bonanza]
#127873 - 24/02/09 04:05 AM

Here is another H&H that would be a much better buy in my opinion:

http://www.hallowellco.com/holland%2019419%20set.htm

No idea what happened to the original set of barrels. It is a nice gun, I've had an opportunity to handle it.

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470evans
.333 member

Reged: 30/03/05
Posts: 278
Loc: Texas, USA

Re: H&H Royal 400/375 flanged. [Re: SharpsNitro]
#127877 - 24/02/09 04:55 AM

Let me expand a bit further. In the documents the owner describes the reason for the rechamber is the difficulty in getting 375 Flanged brass. There is no mention of any other reason. The documentation is all we have to go with at this time.

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NitroX
.700 member

Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 40296
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...

Re: H&H Royal 400/375 flanged. [Re: 470evans]
#127916 - 24/02/09 01:44 PM

Quote:

Let me expand a bit further. In the documents the owner describes the reason for the rechamber is the difficulty in getting 375 Flanged brass. There is no mention of any other reason. The documentation is all we have to go with at this time.

I am not a historian but is it not true that not that many years ago, it WAS very hard to obtain ammunition and components in many Nitro Express chamberings. The reason why the bolt action .458 Win Mag became popular, double rifles with no ammo were extremely cheap and why eventually Bertram started making brass, Woodleigh bullets and Super Simplex reloading equipment to cater for the demand in Australia at least where many of the doubles resided for too short a time.

However if brass could be made and converted from the .405 anyway then ...

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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Anonymous
Unregistered

Re: H&H Royal 400/375 flanged. [Re: NitroX]
#127924 - 24/02/09 03:25 PM

Quote:

I am not a historian.

The 405 was introduced prior to this gun being made, I believe in 1904, rounds could have been made for pennies..

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lancaster
.470 member

Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 9298
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...

Re: H&H Royal 400/375 flanged. [Re: ]
#127930 - 24/02/09 06:28 PM

only jesus christ can forgive this

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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