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empirevr
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Loc: England,but now Italy.
Advantages of .577/500 '.500 no 2' bpe cartridge?
      #127695 - 22/02/09 05:37 AM

Are there any at all over the .500 bpe???

More gusto or the same thing???

Thanks


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gatsby
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Re: Advantages of .577/500 '.500 no 2' bpe cartridge? [Re: empirevr]
      #127713 - 22/02/09 09:03 AM

I am not sure what your asking; 577/500 31/8 compared to the 577/500 #2 or one or both compared to 500bpe's? The 577/500#2 has 30'06 type energy, the 577/500 has more pop, the various 500bpe's give various ballistics scattered equal, below and inbetween the two.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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empirevr
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Re: Advantages of .577/500 '.500 no 2' bpe cartridge? [Re: gatsby]
      #127732 - 22/02/09 05:33 PM

Well gatsby I am asking about the 577/500 No.2 as I got the impression it was like a magnum .500 bpe.......its a bottle neck cartridge.

But, what is the case length? if its 3" surely it is a magnum 500 bpe, no?

What I mean is, does it fire the .510 bullet with the same potency as the 577 bpe?

Thanks


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CFWs
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Re: Advantages of .577/500 '.500 no 2' bpe cartridge? [Re: empirevr]
      #127762 - 22/02/09 11:41 PM

Empirevr,

The 577/500#2 has a case length of 2 13/16". The 577/500 magnum is 3 1/4".

The standard load of the day was 130grs. powder w/ a 340gr. or 380gr. bullet. The one I own regulated nicely with this load.

It is basically the same as a 500 3" BPE, although I have found it easier to load with todays black powder because of the increased case capacity.


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empirevr
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Re: Advantages of .577/500 '.500 no 2' bpe cartridge? [Re: CFWs]
      #127833 - 23/02/09 05:10 PM

Thankyou CFW

Just what I was looking for info wise.

Ben


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Marrakai
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Re: Advantages of .577/500 '.500 no 2' bpe cartridge? [Re: empirevr]
      #127952 - 24/02/09 10:51 PM

Thought I'd toss some comparative data on the end of this thread, just for the record.

Ballistics and load data from the 1926 ICI catalogue:

Cartridge ---------- Powder- Bullet- Pressure- MV(fps)- ME(ftlbs)

.500 BPE ----------- 136gr - 340gr -- 11 tons - 1925 -- 2800
.500 NforB --------- 55grC - 440gr - <10 tons - 1900 -- 3530

.577/.500 #2 BPE --- 130gr - 340gr -- 10 tons - 1850 -- 2590
.577/.500 #2 NforB - 53grC - 440gr - <10 tons - 1675 -- 2743

.577/.500 Mag BPE -- 164gr - 440gr -- 11 tons - 1875 -- 3440
.577/.500 Mag NforB- 60grC - 440gr - <10 tons - 1725 -- 2910

You will note some interesting things here, such as 60gr cordite in the .577/.500 Magnum generates only 1725 fps, whereas in the .500 straight-case the lesser charge of 55gr cordite generates 1900 fps, both with 440gr projectiles. As all modern reloaders of these cartridges know, the larger-volume case is more of a handicap than a help when loading smokeless!

Looking at the Muzzle Energy figures:
The clear winner in BPE loadings is the .577/.500 Magnum.
The clear winner with NforB loads is the .500 3-inch straight-case.

Sadly the .500 No.2 lags behind in every respect.
It is a charismatic cartridge though, and I dearly love the Rodda so-chambered in my collection.

Of course, today it is possible to load these cartridges up or down at will, especially in a single-shot, but it is likely that most quality doubles will regulate at or near the ballistics published in the catalogues of the day. Most of mine do!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Advantages of .577/500 '.500 no 2' bpe cartridge? [Re: Marrakai]
      #127983 - 25/02/09 06:36 AM

Marrakai,

Here again we see that N-for-B loads developed superior ballistics at lower pressures than black powder loads, even with Cordite.

Our modern N-for-B loads are kinder yet on these wonderful antiques, as demonstrated by Graeme Wright's pressure data.

We have reason to be happy with that phenomenon. Who was it in an earlier thread who expounded against firing N-for-B loads in antique damascus?

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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empirevr
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Re: Advantages of .577/500 '.500 no 2' bpe cartridge? [Re: CptCurl]
      #128025 - 25/02/09 05:24 PM

Thanks gents.......great stuff!!!

Check out my load question about to be posted.

Thanks

Ben


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93x64mm
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Re: Advantages of .577/500 '.500 no 2' bpe cartridge? [Re: empirevr]
      #258697 - 06/01/15 06:52 PM

Folks,
was looking thru bits & pieces & found this one!
Can I get the grey matter going out there & see what turns up?

Firstly what is it's actual full case dimensions, I've looked around a fair bit but with no success!
It would be nice to have them all including body, shoulder & neck lengths if possible so I can calculate its approximate case capacity - surely it must be greater than 110gn of water?

Yes I only want to load BP for this potential project!

Secondly if this beast is able to squeeze into a large frame Martini-Henry then I might be onto a winner as I would rather have only it fitted with an English round - in this case anyway!
Obviously I'd need dies & reamer - CH4D for dies, reamer?

As an after thought, was there ever a ".500" made directly on the .577 Snider case or a necked up 577-450?
This case would be over 130gn+ so would make the grade for Black Powder Express!
Any thoughts - I'm open for suggestions?
Cheers
93x64mm


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underlever
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Re: Advantages of .577/500 '.500 no 2' bpe cartridge? [Re: 93x64mm]
      #258700 - 06/01/15 09:57 PM

I believe that the 500 No2 was a Westley Richards cartridge as they are a standard in their improved martini. A bottle necked round is just perfect for getting around the curve of a martini type action and I feel it was no coincidence that WR developed this round ( I think anyway ) and it being used in their improved action. When they developed this action the 500 3" would have been a very popular round and this would not work in it. To promote the new martini it would have made sense to have a round that gave fairly close ballistics to the 500 3" but allow it to work it their own rifle, hopefully making it a good seller. I have one of these in 500 No2 which I use and I also have a large martini action which I will dig up and compare.
Mine has metford rifling, which is fairly worn, and although I've tried lots of combinations, so far only paper patched bullets and black powder make it shoot well. But then again, it was designed for this combo.
I have at least 1 original round which I will do a drawing of and post.

Underlever


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kuduae
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Re: Advantages of .577/500 '.500 no 2' bpe cartridge? [Re: underlever]
      #258703 - 07/01/15 12:22 AM

Quote:

I believe that the 500 No2 was a Westley Richards cartridge as they are a standard in their improved martini. A bottle necked round is just perfect for getting around the curve of a martini type action and I feel it was no coincidence that WR developed this round ( I think anyway ) and it being used in their improved action. When they developed this action the 500 3" would have been a very popular round and this would not work in it. To promote the new martini it would have made sense to have a round that gave fairly close ballistics to the 500 3" but allow it to work it their own rifle, hopefully making it a good seller.




IMHO this was the reason for another Westley-Richards cartridge too, incidentially named "No.1", the .500/.450 No.1 BPExpress, 2 3/4" case. Just like the .577/.500 No.2 BPE is close to the .500 3" BPE, merely bottlenecked, so is the .500/.450 No.1 BPE to the popular .450 3 " BPE.
At least two other cartridges originated with the difficulty of the Martini type action to digest long, straight cases:
The British military selected the Martini action as their then preferred military rifle, but wanted to use Alexander Henry's barrel and load. Henry's original cartridge, a coiled brass, straight .450 3 ", did not fit a Martini action of reasonable length, so they designed the bottlenecked .577/.450 Martini-Henry to take Henry's powder charge and bullet.
When gun and ammo supply from Germany dried up during and post WW1, the most popular hunting cartridge in Switzerland was the 9.3x72R. But this long, almost straight number did not work with the Swiss domestic Haemmerli Martini actions, so they designed their 9.3x53R Swiss, factory loaded to merely copy the ballistics of the 9.3x72R Swiss factory load.


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