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Phil_in_the_UK
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Reged: 30/04/03
Posts: 60
Loc: United Kingdom
450/400 3 ¼"
      #12716 - 29/03/04 12:25 AM

I have found a rifle chambered for the 450/400 3 ¼”. I have never come across this calibre before and as it will be used as a dangerous game rifle, buffalo and elephant, what do you think? It uses a 400grn bullet at around 2100 fps. Also, what is the calibre like to reload, does anyone have any experience? It is built by I Hollis and looks ok but before I travel down to take a closer look, I thought I would ask your advice.

Regards

Phil

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475Guy
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Re: 450/400 3 ¼" [Re: Phil_in_the_UK]
      #12717 - 29/03/04 12:35 AM

Go to www.african-hunter.com and go to Archives and then click on the Classic Cartridges page. It will give you a primer on the mentioned cartridge. It and the 404 J have been long favored in past years over most others as it just gets the job done without too much recoil. Hope this helps.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.

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DUGABOY1
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Re: 450/400 3 ¼" [Re: Phil_in_the_UK]
      #12724 - 29/03/04 03:19 AM

In reply to:

I have found a rifle chambered for the 450/400 3 ¼”.

<<Snip>> It uses a 400grn bullet at around 2100 fps.

<<SNIP>> It is built by I Hollis and looks ok but before I travel down to take a closer look, I thought I would ask your advice.

Regards

Phil




Phil, the 450/400 3", and 3 1/4" are fine chamberings for a double rifle, and are perfectly addiquate for the purpose you have stated. The 450/400NE was Pondoro Taylor's favorite round for elephant, and that alone says something for this chambering. The one word of caution with the 3 1/4" version. It was offered in blackpowder,Nitro for black powder, and Nitro, and when the Nitro (smokeless powder) version came out, the case shape was not changed, so Nitro ammo will chamber and fire in a black powder rifle! Because of this fact, you need to make sure the rifle you're thinking of buying is "NITRO PROOFED". The 3" version was never offered in a black powder version,so any rifle found in the 3" version will automaticlly be Nitro proofed, and the 3" version of this cartridge will not chamber in a 3 1/4" chamber.

Try Talking to NITRO 450 No2, who posts on AR, and sometimes here, as he has a lot of experience in working up loads for this chambering. Ray Atkinson also has some experience as well.

The A. Hollis rifles are quality items,if in good shape, and are sought after here in the USA.


--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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mickey
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Re: 450/400 3 ¼" [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #12729 - 29/03/04 04:27 AM

Phil

I have an Alex Henry in 400 3 1/4" and it is a very nice rifle. they are usually a bit lighter than the 45 calibers and it will probably be slimmer and handier than a 470. I will try and post a target put I am having trouble getting ImageStation to show pics here lately.

I also have a Hollis in 577 2 3/4" and they make a real dandy of a rifle.

Are you the guy who works for Paul Roberts?

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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475Guy
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Re: 450/400 3 ¼" [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #12731 - 29/03/04 04:47 AM

D, wouldn't it be safe to say that the 3" version is the Jeffery cartridge? The NE versions are 3 1/4" and as you say one would want a Nitro proofed one instead of a BP one.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.

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atkinson6
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Re: 450/400 3 ¼" [Re: 475Guy]
      #12741 - 29/03/04 07:37 AM

The 3.25 was a black powder round at one time, but they toughened up the brass so both the 3 and the 3.25 are mostly smokeless guns, but its wise to double check this and to slug the bores as they sure can vari some.....

both are great calibers and components are readily available for both..Given my druthers I would pick a 3" all things being equal, but I wouldn't pass up a good 3.25 either....

Searcy will build you a new PH model in 450-400-3" for $9500, and thats a deal.

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470Rigby
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Re: 450/400 3 ¼" [Re: Phil_in_the_UK]
      #12748 - 29/03/04 09:18 AM

Phil...I Hollis (not to be confused with A. Hollis!) was primarily a gun trade military contractor and manufacturer of "trade quality" shotguns for the British Colonies - just about every Australian would have an uncle or grandfather that had a Hollis (or Cashmore etc) under the bed or behind the wardrobe. But, I Hollis also made some pretty high grade guns and double rifles - I had one in "your" calibre (450/400 31/4 inch) once, a very high grade, game scene engraved, ejector model. Shot extremely well with "Australian" loads (i.e. 83 grains IMR 4831/Federal 215 primer/400 grain Woodleigh SP pills/Bell cases - pressure approx 10.9 ton/sq. in. and velocity around 2050 fps) For light "Plinking" loads, you can use .40 cal pistol bullets - I used 220 grain Speers with 40 grains SR 4759 powder, Fed 215 primer, for 2145 fps - shot parallel, but a but high in my gun.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 450/400 3 ¼" [Re: 470Rigby]
      #12759 - 29/03/04 01:46 PM

In reply to:

Hollis (not to be confused with A. Hollis!) was primarily a gun trade military contractor and manufacturer of "trade quality" shotguns for the British Colonies - just about every Australian would have an uncle or grandfather that had a Hollis (or Cashmore etc) under the bed or behind the wardrobe.



Yep, got one, an old clanker hammer damascus barrelled double in 12 gauge.

Grew up using it before I worked out and told my Father what damascus barrels are. Still shoot it occaisonally with 2 1/2" light loads. Hopefully it is safe enough to do that.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Phil_in_the_UK
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Re: 450/400 3 ¼" [Re: 475Guy]
      #12783 - 30/03/04 06:08 AM

475Guy

Many thanks for the info; I had a look at the African Hunter archive, a very positive write-up. It looks like this may be the one.

Regards

Phil

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Phil_in_the_UK
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Re: 450/400 3 ¼" [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #12784 - 30/03/04 06:18 AM

DUGABOY1

I am still awaiting some feedback from the seller regarding the exact specification so fingers crossed for a Nitro rifle. I was a little concerned the calibre was only a little more powerful than say the .375 H&H, nothing against this caliber but I wanted something with a little “more” if I am chasing elephant.

Many thanks and regards

Phil

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NE450No2
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Re: 450/400 3 ¼" [Re: Phil_in_the_UK]
      #12785 - 30/03/04 06:29 AM

Phil
I have a 450/400 3 1/4" double rifle. Two of my hunting buddies have I Hollis 450/400 3". They are very nice rifles.
If your double is Nitro Proofed it will be marked on the bbl flats. If you do not have access to a meaning of the British proof marks, an easy way to tell is the following. The bbl flats will be marked with the following: "400 express... 400 Gr MAX.....60gr CORDITE.
If your rifle was regulated for the Tropical load it will say 55gr CORDITE. Many 3 " Jeffery guns are so marked, but I have not seen a 3 1/4" rifle so marked.
Either of the 450/400's just may be the best calibre for a persons first double. If you get the rifle let me know as I have some good loads including some with 300grain bullets which work great on deer and wild pig sized game.
Before you load for any 450/400 you MUST find out if it takes .408 diameter or .411 diameter bullets.

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NE450No2
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Re: 450/400 3 ¼" [Re: Phil_in_the_UK]
      #12786 - 30/03/04 06:33 AM

Phil
Do not confuse "paper ballistics" with actual "killing power".
Make no mistake about it the 450/400 is plenty enough gun for all game, elephant included. You could feel completely safe in Jurrassic Park, with a 450/400....
Well handled of course.

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cowboy
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Loc: Northern Wyoming, USA
Re: 450/400 3 ¼" [Re: Phil_in_the_UK]
      #12797 - 30/03/04 12:56 PM

Phil,

I shoot a great 450/400 3 1/4" NE Double made by Charles
Lancaster in 1911. It shoots like a dream (1 1/2" groups
@ 50 yds). I plan on taking it to Africa this Summer after
Cape Buffalo & have no reservations about its ability to
handle dangerous game. Who knows, maybe elephant in 2006?
If you are going to get into reloading I would get a
copy of "Shooting the British Double Rifle" by Graeme
Wright. It's very informative & gives a variety of
cordite to modern powder conversions. My 450/400 seems
to regulate better with Reloader-15 rather than IMR 4831,
but I guess each gun will behave differently. Good luck
with the Hollis. Jim

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3591
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: 450/400 3 ¼" [Re: NE450No2]
      #12810 - 30/03/04 07:24 PM

Phil:
The accolades for the .400 posted here are well justified IMHO. As a long-time user of the Jeffery .400 cartridge, I concur whole-heartedly. To get the best out of the cartridge, though, use only premium bullets. For me, this means bonded-core softs, and steel-jacketed solids (Woodleighs of course!). I expect the cartridge is adequate for elephant ONLY with good steel-jacketed solids.

I won't get into the mololithic-solid argument here, but most reloaders for pommie guns stay away from them, whereas most Searcy/Kreigoff/Merkel/etc users seem to get away with it ok.

The .400 Nitro is a GREAT double-rifle chambering when the correct bullets are used.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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Rusty
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Re: 450/400 3 ¼" [Re: Phil_in_the_UK]
      #12819 - 31/03/04 01:42 AM

Phil,

I own an A. Hollis 450/400 3 inch.

One of my best friends, 400 Nitro Express also owns an A. Hollis in the same caliber. Most of the A. Hollis rifles we have seen have been good quality rifles.

Not to take issue with what Rigby said, however we have never seen an I. Hollis rifle that is of the quality that we have seen with A. Hollis. I am sure they are out there, just haven't crossed one here on this side of the pond.

The real key on the rifle you are looking at is to see if there is a 4 digit number near the barrel loop on the under rib.


That number means that the barreled action was made by Leonard. Leonard made barrel action for the trade, including Jeffery. If you look at the Jeffery records you would see that most of their barrel actions were purchased from others like leonard and then they finished and stocked them.

As far as the 450/400 3 and 3 1/4 go they are wonderful chamberings that are gentle enough to shoot a lot and big enough to swat whever you come across!

Be sure of the caliber you are getting. Some are .411 and most are .408. Slug the bore before you buy your Woodleigh or Hawk bullets.


--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!
DRSS

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Phil_in_the_UK
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Re: 450/400 3 ¼" [Re: Rusty]
      #12826 - 31/03/04 04:33 AM

Everyone, a big thank you for all the positive feedback, a great help.

I spoke to the seller today and he cleared up a few points. The rifle is not 450/400 3 ½” it is a 450/400 3” and is Nitro proofed. I am going down there on Thursday to take a look, see how it handles and give it a try; he has a 50yd range.

After much searching, calibre changes and thoughts of new rifles, I may have found the one.

Ill let you know.

Regards

Phil

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Rusty
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Re: 450/400 3 ¼" [Re: Phil_in_the_UK]
      #12828 - 31/03/04 06:23 AM

Phil, take a bunch of pictures with your digital camera so we can ogle her too!

I did not see your email addy, could you please eamil me at rkmojo@aol.com.

--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!
DRSS

Edited by Rusty (31/03/04 06:25 AM)

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Phil_in_the_UK
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Re: 450/400 3 ¼" [Re: mickey]
      #12862 - 01/04/04 05:41 AM

Mickey

Sorry, I’m not the guy who works for Paul Roberts but I did work with a Paul Roberts about 10 years ago when I worked for a company called Cameron’s. Haven’t seen him in the past 10 years, maybe this is the guy, although I don’t think he shot, think he played a lot of golf though.


Cowboy

My wife bought me "Shooting the British Double Rifle" by Graeme Wright for Christmas, excellent read, its now very well read and a bit dog eared, hope I’ll be putting some of it into practice soon.


Rusty

Cameras packed, I’m heading south early in the morning to see just how good (hopefully) this rifle is.

Regards

Phil

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470Rigby
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Re: 450/400 3 ¼" [Re: Rusty]
      #12937 - 02/04/04 04:17 PM

Rusty

Here are some very fuzzy plotos of the I.(for Isaac) Hollis 450/400 31/4 nitro that I owned once - equal to any A. Hollis that I have seen, and better than most Jeffery's - there was a pinless sidelock that got away on me once!

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 450/400 3 ¼" [Re: 470Rigby]
      #12938 - 02/04/04 04:26 PM

470rigby

photos? Send them to me if you want them posted and can not do it yourself.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Photos
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Re: 450/400 3 ¼" [Re: NitroX]
      #13076 - 06/04/04 02:29 AM

470rigby's Hollis photos










--------------------
Images optimized by XAT software


Photos.NitroExpress.com

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Rusty
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Re: 450/400 3 ¼" [Re: Photos]
      #13079 - 06/04/04 03:32 AM

Nice pics photos! Looks familiar to me.


About the rifle you posted. What is the given address on the trade label. Mincing Lane or Victoria street? What is the serial number of the rifle and the 4 digit number if there is one, near the barrel loop? Just gathering as much information about A. Hollis rifles as possible. On the other thread there is a picture of my A. Hollis.

Best regards,



--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!
DRSS

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470Rigby
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Re: 450/400 3 ¼" [Re: Phil_in_the_UK]
      #13208 - 08/04/04 09:03 AM

Phil,

Some info about the origins of “your” rifle’s maker…..

Alfred B. Hollis, the proprietor of A. Hollis & Co, came from the same gunmaking family as Isaac Hollis, the owner of the more well know I. Hollis concern.

While having his origins in the Birmingham gun trade, he was an inveterate traveler, and while in India in 1885 set up in Bombay as a gundealer.

Although he signed his guns “A. Hollis & Co – London”, it seems, despite being a trained gunmaker, he was merely a distributor and repairer during this phase, in the same manner of other India based firms such as Mantons, Lyon & Lyon, Rodda, P. Orr & Son, etc.

He counted among his customer the Nizam of Hyderabad, and the Duke of Connaught; there are some rifles around that carry the legend “Rifle Maker to the Duke of Connaught”

This reference as a “rifle maker” probably explains why A. Hollis shotguns are rarely encountered. Or alternatively, unlike rifles (excepting .303’s), shotguns have been a prohibited export from India for many years.

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470Rigby
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Re: 450/400 3 ¼" [Re: Rusty]
      #13209 - 08/04/04 09:12 AM

Rusty,

There were some "glitches" in my original post. The photos are of an I. Hollis that I owned once. The addess was their usual Loveday Street, Birmigham location.

The point of the post was to show that, I. Hollis occasionally put out some reasonable quality stuff, unlike A. Hollis who seemed to maintain a consistently high standard.

There are a few A. Hollis' kicking around here in Oz, I will see if I can get some info on the for you.

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Rookhawk
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Re: 450/400 3 ¼" [Re: 470Rigby]
      #282671 - 20/05/16 01:13 AM

Just wanted to mention I have an I. Hollis sister to the gun posted above. Mine is in 500 Nitro for Black unlike your 450/400 3-1/4" however.

Weighs a bit more than 11.5lbs. 26" barrels. Regulated for cordite 55gr with a 440gr copper jacketed bullet. (kynoch) Made between 1904-1911. A credible expert on Westley Richards strongly believed this gun was made by WR and retailed by Hollis. The justification beyond aesthetics was the style of the folding leaf sights, the method of insertion of the front bead and the rib texture.

Just wanted to say I appreciated your pictures.

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