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Aussiesteve
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Reged: 30/03/08
Posts: 73
Loc: Melbourne, Victoria, Australi...
.505 gibbs
      #127023 - 14/02/09 10:35 PM

I have been thinking if I get some spare cash of building a .505 gibbs. I am wondering what action would I need to build it on? Would a surplus M17 do the trick, and if so how much work would it need to function correctly?
I am not looking for the worlds nicest rifle or anything just a reliable big bore, for as little as I can get away with.

Cheers

Steve


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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: .505 gibbs [Re: Aussiesteve]
      #127025 - 14/02/09 10:49 PM


M17 can be used. As can a Brno 550.


A fair amount of work if the M17 has all the ears etc
still on.


Why not just buy a new Brno 550, off the Shelf ?


Good choice of calibre.


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Aussiesteve
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Reged: 30/03/08
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Re: .505 gibbs [Re: 500Nitro]
      #127026 - 14/02/09 10:58 PM

Hi 500Nitro, mate dont know what a CZ costs straight up, just looking at the website and they are about 3K or so. I was thinking if I can find an M17 with the ears off cheap the I only need a new barrel and a stock and away I go. Shouldnt cost me all that much, I think the 'smithing would be the most expensive part.

Cheers

Steve


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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3591
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: .505 gibbs [Re: Aussiesteve]
      #127030 - 14/02/09 11:30 PM

Quote:

I think the 'smithing would be the most expensive part



I reckon that's an accurate statement!

Just a couple of teeny weeny jobs like straightening the bottom-metal and bolt-handle for starters, then opening up the bolt-face, rebuilding the mag box, lengthening the opening and grinding out the action rails so it feeds reliably under any circumstances......

Having said that, I like the P-14 action and have one stashed away for a rainy day myself. The whole A-Square phenomenon proves the worth of these actions for the big rimless cases, and plenty were worked up by H&H, Jeffery etc when the Magnum Mausers became unavailable.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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500Nitro
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Re: .505 gibbs [Re: Marrakai]
      #127034 - 14/02/09 11:52 PM


Aussiesteve

Your choice.

Anyway, if you want a blank 505 Barrel,
I have one you can buy.

Can't remember what it is but will find out.
I know it is one of the better ones.


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Ripp
.577 member


Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: .505 gibbs [Re: Aussiesteve]
      #127053 - 15/02/09 02:36 AM

Aussiesteve
If you don't mind,m I would realy be interested in your project and what you settle on for an action..was actually talking to my smith about the same caliber this week...think it was be an awesome caliber to have--especially to take on a ele hunt...

Thx

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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xausa
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Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: .505 gibbs [Re: Aussiesteve]
      #127068 - 15/02/09 04:36 AM

When I set my heart on a .505 back in the 60's, I reviewed what was available and decided that trying to make a .505 Gibbs work through a P-14/M1917 Enfield action was just going to be too difficult, aside from the fact that componants were practically impossible to get and Berdan primed if you did find them.

My solution, after conferring with John Buhmiller, who was in a position to know, was to shorten the easily available .460 Weatherby case to 2.5" and to neck the resulting case to .505, creating a case with a slight shoulder to ease feeding, which held about 90 grains of powder to the base of the bullet and a cartridge which would feed through a conventional length action without modification to the magazine.

The conventional length action I chose was a P-14 Enfield, suitably modified, and equipped with a Lyman 48 receiver sight and Sourdough front sight on a Williams ramp. John Buhmeller supplied the barrel.

As it turned out, no decent .505 bullets were available. (.505 was then a propriatary cartridge, with no componants available to "the trade".) John Buhmiller opined that Barnes solids made good soft points. I wanted something more substantial.

I was able to come up with some 570 grain Kynoch solids meant for the .500 NE and modify them for my purposes. I achieved 2150 fps with no signs of pressure, using 90 grains of 4064, and the rounds fed perfectly, using both jacketed and cast bullets.

Three elephants, five buffalo and a black rhino have fallen to this rifle, and I would be happy to use it on any of those kinds of animals again, if the opportunity presented itself.

The fact is that both the .505 Gibbs and the .500 NE have far too much case capacity for the performance they produce, and since speeding up the bullets would serve no useful purpose, reducing the case capacity does.

That said, I presently have a .505 Gibbs on order, as much a tribute to the Hoffman Arms Company as anything else. I will not be using a P-14 action, however.


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Altamaha
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Reged: 29/12/08
Posts: 376
Loc: Washington State USA
Re: .505 gibbs [Re: Ripp]
      #127071 - 15/02/09 04:55 AM

Now You Are Getting Me interested!!

I have a 505 or two in my future plans. I was fortunate back in the 1980's and purchased many P-14, P-17 and M98 actions when they were available at the gun shows at reasonable prices. Think I have about 15 P-14 and P-17 actions, and around 30 or so Mausers "salted" away for my gun projects. Now that retirement is a reality, I finally have time to work on some guns.

I have built a few belted magnums on the Enfields, but not a big case like a 505. The 505 could be a challange, but I have a good instructional article by Jim and Leroy Wisner on how to do it, complete with drawings. The Wisners made one of the best looking conversions, and are still in buisness in the US Washington State making parts for obsolete guns. Being a retired Machinist, I have the usual machinist machinery tools in my shop, so I am well equipped with tools and machinery, although the knowledge may be a shortcoming!!

Notes on P-14 and P-17 Enfield actions: Many say the Eddystone actions are brittle and should be avoided. The Winchester actions are good, but have a large hole in the rear bridge under the rear sight that must be plugged and TIG welded up. (I use a piece of 4140 cut to fit the hole and TIG weld it in). The Remington action is considered the best, as it does not have a hole in the rear bridge. Regardless, either action requires a substantial amount of metal work. And if you weld up that hole in the rear bridge, you will have difficulties drilling and tapping for either a rear sight or a scope base.

The A-Square rifles worked, but were somewhat "simply" done, after all, what would one expect for a gun costing some $1700 or so back when they were made? I have had a couple in my collection in the past, after making some improvements, I sold them to "friends" as I did not like the stock style or the way the metal work was accomplished. And that long eye relief scope on the barrel drove me nuts!

Welding on the Enfields: TIG only. Gas welding is a real no-no, as you put way too much heat in the receiver when welding. Standard arc welding is sloppy. Both gas welding and arc welding entrap slag in the weld and should not be employed in gun work. If your gun worker does not use TIG, find someone that does. Copper heat sinks and heat sink paste are a requirement on both the receiver and the bolt when welding. I also wrap the bolt lugs and forward portion of the bolt with a cold water soaked rag when welding on a new bolt handle.

It is interesting that some of the British makers may have used Enfield actions for the bigger cartridges. Anyone have a photo of one?


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Altamaha
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Reged: 29/12/08
Posts: 376
Loc: Washington State USA
Re: .505 gibbs [Re: xausa]
      #127073 - 15/02/09 05:10 AM

XAUSA, John Buhmiller was "DA Man". I have an article somewhere in my files about his work in developing what turned out to be the 460 Weatherby, and using it on a Elephant culling operation in Africa many, many years ago.

You are absolutely correct about using something other than the Enfield action for a 505. I only want to do it for the challange, might turn out to be a candidate for the scrap box. And yes, we really do not need the case capacity of the 505, however, nostalgia creeps in and makes guys like me just want a 505. I have a 450 Rigby built on a CZ550, If I ever went to Africa, this would be more than enough gun.

NITROX, I would be interested in your 505 barrel if it was not so difficult in getting it into the US. What make, twist, contour, length?


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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: .505 gibbs [Re: Altamaha]
      #127077 - 15/02/09 06:11 AM


Altamaha

I will find out for you what the barrel is.


Good luck, it's agreat calibre and I love shooting
and killing with mine.


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Con
.333 member


Reged: 24/05/04
Posts: 261
Loc: Victoria
Re: .505 gibbs [Re: 500Nitro]
      #127082 - 15/02/09 07:03 AM

Aussiesteve,
I was at deVries a few weeks back and we discussed a similar project as we'd just taken a barrel off a Remington action, so we put a 505Gibbs alongside and had a squizz. Just buy a CZ at $3800 if Cleavers still has them as I reckon you'll be pretty close to $3k for metal work on an M17 to pretty it up and get it ready.

If you do go M17 ... a P14 bolt is preferable and a Remington action arguably the best.

I spoke with Slee and he can make an M17 semi-inletted stock with wider butt etc easy enough.
Cheers...
Con


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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3591
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: .505 gibbs [Re: Con]
      #127110 - 15/02/09 11:59 AM

Quote:

It is interesting that some of the British makers may have used Enfield actions... Anyone have a photo of one?



Should have a couple tucked away, also in some of the coffee-table books.
Meanwhile, here's a couple of modern manifestations, one of which belongs to a forum member:





--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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Aussiesteve
.275 member


Reged: 30/03/08
Posts: 73
Loc: Melbourne, Victoria, Australi...
Re: .505 gibbs [Re: Marrakai]
      #127282 - 16/02/09 07:55 PM

Hmmmmm I didnt realise that there was so much work needed in making an M17 work with the .505 gibbs case. I was hoping it would be as cheap or only a little dearer to rebarrel on old M17 which previosly had been converted to a sporter, as it would be to buy a brand new CZ. I am a little worried about the quality control of recent CZ's there have been some pretty nasty things being spred about, esp with the warrenty side of things. I however must admit that my .416 Rigby functions flawlessly.


500Nitro, mate thanks for the offer, I'd still be interested in it, and Con mate when we have the catch up in a few days we'll talk more then


Steve


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Paul
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Reged: 28/08/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Re: .505 gibbs [Re: Aussiesteve]
      #127397 - 18/02/09 12:46 AM

That's a nice rifle, Marrakai. I like the G&H look of the pistol hand. I like the safety, too, and the pregnant magazine belly looks the shot for fat DG cartridges. Do gunsmiths still turn the metal base of it upside down to get rid of the step?

Is there any practical reason why an original Enfield bolt handle shouldn't be kept? I reckon the old dogleg adds character, like the milled intricacies of the Mauser action - more to exercise the eye than the turned expedience of some modern sporters.

- Paul


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bigboar
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Reged: 05/02/09
Posts: 33
Loc: NewEngland
Re: .505 gibbs [Re: Paul]
      #127401 - 18/02/09 01:47 AM

Aussie have you priced out reloading dies? The RCBS/Hungington X series is $450! Ive found some custom wildcat dies in the $200 price range stuff like 600OK and 585AHR. So; I wonder if there is an economy alternative for the .505?

Something to consider if you plan to build a custom 505 is too start with a CZ550 in 458Lott. It is the same exact action, stock, dual crossbolt as the $3400 CZ gun in 505. The ONLY real difference is the sling stud and plain Jane wood. A new CZ in 458Lott is selling around $1100. Starting with the Lott, you could have the bolt face/extractor modified and rebarrel for 505. Would that work for you? Well there is another difference, the CZ550 in 505 has mercury reducers. Maybe you dont need those or the extra weight.

Edited by bigboar (18/02/09 01:49 AM)


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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
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Re: .505 gibbs [Re: bigboar]
      #127406 - 18/02/09 03:50 AM


"Well there is another difference, the CZ550 in 505 has mercury reducers. Maybe you dont need those or the extra weight. "


Have you shot one ?

That's a big call.


By the time you fuck around, you might as well
just buy one off the shelf.


I haven't found that barrel yet.


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bigboar
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Loc: NewEngland
Re: .505 gibbs [Re: 500Nitro]
      #127421 - 18/02/09 09:13 AM

Quote:

"By the time you f#$% around, you might as well
just buy one off the shelf."




Yea, that's what I did. My CZ550 505 is back at the factory for issues. I am hopeful all will work out. No, I have not shot it yet. I guess you could say I anxiously await. Reducers sound ok to me.

If the goal is a project, an $1100 CZ550 is a Lott of raw matterial.

Any source of lower price reloading dies in 505?


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500Nitro
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Re: .505 gibbs [Re: bigboar]
      #127423 - 18/02/09 09:20 AM



Yes, I think CZ had a number of issues, but I think most companies do when they start building bigger bores.

Ruger is in the same boat.


If you buy a 505, don't complain about Brass and die costs !!!!


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Aussiesteve
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Reged: 30/03/08
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Re: .505 gibbs [Re: 500Nitro]
      #127428 - 18/02/09 01:11 PM

I have a .577 NE so I understand the cost of dies and brass! I have spoken to my preferd 'smith about this and I think that it would be just easier to do either a 500 Jeff, or .500 A2, which from memory is the .460 weatherby necked up.

Steve


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bigboar
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Reged: 05/02/09
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Re: .505 gibbs [Re: Aussiesteve]
      #127461 - 19/02/09 12:31 AM

The 500 A square sounds like the most shooting for buck. I wanted the romance of the 505 Gibbs to compliment my 416 Rigby. I have a preferance for uncompromising cartidge designs and dont care for bean counter mentality (IMO only) cartidges like the, too short, 458 win mag or rebated & short, 500 Jeffrey. I am sure they have advantages, just not for me.

I was unaware of the recent popularity of big bore shooting. Reading here and elsewhere, I am quietly considering something custom/semi-custom in one of the 577 wildcats (750 gr 2100 fps). Maybe someday ...

Man it would be great if Hornady would offer 577NE ammo. Or 505 gibbs.

Edited by bigboar (19/02/09 12:38 AM)


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Ripp
.577 member


Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: .505 gibbs [Re: bigboar]
      #127462 - 19/02/09 02:27 AM

Just talked to Granite Mountain Arms this morning---http://www.granitemountainarms.com/

for one of their 98 Mauser actions for a 505 your looking at $3250 for the action and a 3 month wait...they are in AZ--heading there next month on business..plan to stop by their shop..

Agree with 500Nitro---if you get one you CAN"T complain about the dies cost...all part of the game. .

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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JLS
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Reged: 25/07/04
Posts: 17
Loc: Co
Re: .505 gibbs [Re: Ripp]
      #127468 - 19/02/09 04:11 AM

Ripp:

If you're interested in a GMA Gibbs, there's one for sale in Denver. The name of the establishment is: M.W.Reynolds.(Traditional Country Sports) Pho: 303 761-0021 Web: www.mwreynolds.com

I looked at it a couple of weeks ago, and it's a beauty. I didn't check the price tag.


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thorshammer
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Reged: 27/12/08
Posts: 150
Loc: USA
Re: .505 gibbs [Re: JLS]
      #127479 - 19/02/09 05:56 AM

GMA 505-17500

AHR gma action-7,000

AHR custom cz-5000

Ritterbusch 505-17,000 which he makes great working rifles even 1 that feeds the 577 nitro express

and one of my favorites

Satterlee arms-14,000 imo better then gma

also

Heym 505-10500


Will report on the bitterbusch 577 when it arrives


Also the 500 A2 is just a 510 wells express under a different name necked up 460 weatherby there is the 505 barnes supreme which doesnt need the magnum mauser action 460 necked up to 505 but if you want a great caliber and you load your own ammo id go 460 guns and ammo 404 jeffrey necked to 458 hits harder then the lott but not as much as the weatherby

Edited by thorshammer (19/02/09 06:07 AM)


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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: .505 gibbs [Re: JLS]
      #127507 - 19/02/09 01:51 PM

Quote:

Ripp:

If you're interested in a GMA Gibbs, there's one for sale in Denver. The name of the establishment is: M.W.Reynolds.(Traditional Country Sports) Pho: 303 761-0021 Web: www.mwreynolds.com

I looked at it a couple of weeks ago, and it's a beauty. I didn't check the price tag.




Thanks for the info...

Took the info to one of the gunsmiths I use quite a bit---pricing the entire project to see where we will be--including work on custom stock..as I alreay have a couple of blanks..thinking of which brand barrel we might use..have used Hart and Lilja in the past on my smaller calibers...

Think I will be able to build the one I want for about 2/3rds of what they are asking for the GMA..will wait and see..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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xausa
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Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: .505 gibbs [Re: Aussiesteve]
      #127569 - 20/02/09 06:53 AM

Why settle for less, when you can have the best?

http://www.gunsinternational.com/George-Gibbs-505.cfm?gun_id=100061517


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