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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns

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empirevr
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Reged: 03/09/06
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Loc: England,but now Italy.
A quickie-12-bore rifle vs 500 or 577 bpe
      #127006 - 14/02/09 06:27 PM

Which was more capable and why????????

Was the express superior? If the 12 bore 2.5" rifle gave out God knows say 4,000 ft lbs tops then surely the 577 is just the same but with more speed and a lighter bullet?

Is one a stopper and the other a standard hunter???

Thanks


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Marrakai
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Re: A quickie-12-bore rifle vs 500 or 577 bpe [Re: empirevr]
      #127012 - 14/02/09 07:28 PM

Samuel Baker was adamant: in favour of the .577 Express.

A No.8 would have been the preferred backup, but 10 and even 12-bore Paradox guns were recommended if the 8-bore recoil was too much.

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Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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empirevr
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Re: A quickie-12-bore rifle vs 500 or 577 bpe [Re: Marrakai]
      #127173 - 15/02/09 09:07 PM

Thanks Tony

I am on Holt's wish list wonder what will come up........

So the 577 is more gun than the 3" mag 12-bore rifle too???

Thanks

Ben


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belgmart
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Reged: 29/02/04
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Re: A quickie-12-bore rifle vs 500 or 577 bpe [Re: empirevr]
      #127187 - 16/02/09 12:32 AM

That one's easy - the 577 will give more velocity for a lesser bullet diameter and have a better BC, hence much more penetration. The 12-bore would need MV's quite a bit higher than the 577 to get equal penetration, and bullets quite a bit heavier. The 577 will also be better at longer range because of its better BC. Come on guys, don't tell me you never got out of the 19th century - and even the 1st half of it!?
The bore rifles, wile very good at short range, were found wanting at the longer ranges - because they didn't have the required penetration. If the velocity just isn't there, that big frontal surface won't get the job done.

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Martini's Rule!


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empirevr
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Re: A quickie-12-bore rifle vs 500 or 577 bpe [Re: belgmart]
      #127203 - 16/02/09 03:17 AM

Ah but its short range I have in mind........

I am thinking of the original dangerous game use, for shooting say buffalo or ele up close!

Ben


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DarylS
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Re: A quickie-12-bore rifle vs 500 or 577 bpe [Re: empirevr]
      #127218 - 16/02/09 07:31 AM

At short range, a hardened 12 bore ball travelling at 1,500fps to 1,600fps, weighing 545gr. to 600gr. will possess much more actual stopping power than any load you could put in the small bore of a .577. FPE has little or nothing to do with actual stopping or killing power. The smaller bullet will have a higher SD, and therefore, if it is hard enough, will out penetrate the larger diameter ball - simple physics. However - (quote by Major Shakespear, author of "Wild Sports in India")- "I have Minnie moulds for my rifles; but so long as spherical bullets go through and through large game, I do not see the use of running the risk of shaking the stock of the gun, and of extra recoil, by using the heavier balls"(bullets). This author seems to think that round balls are find for - tiger, elephant, buffalo and bears.

I know that Baker switched to the .577BPE for his regular hunting rifle as it was the first concial shooting ctg. rifle that could be relyed upon to give enough straight line penetration to kill. He still used his round ball 'bore' guns as stoppers when things didn't go right with the small bore rifle. It has nothing to do with velocity, as the .577 possessed only 100fps more than a 6 1/2 to 7 dram charge in a 12 bore. A 12, loaded with 9 drams & a round ball outstipped the .577 in velocity and penetration as well, providing hard balls were used - it also kicked about twice as much as the .577 and needed to be about 12 to 15 pounds, the larger bores, even heavier.

So - the small bored .577 worked in about a 10 pound gun. A 12 bore of that weight could be loaded with 7 drams and a hard round ball. A good .577 had more range, but close in, to 100 yards, the 12 bore (or larger) was actually more powerful - due to it's size and hemispherical shaped ball.

If you want to have a bullet that 'releases' energy inside an animal, you need explosive bullets. Expanding bullets do not release energy - only exploading bullets do that. If you download Forsyth's book, the last chapter will show you how to make the moulds and how to load them. He thought they might not work well on dangerous game if reduced to smaller than 14 bore, but I had some results with a .58 muzzleloader back in the 70's with explosive bullets. I was a Federal Policeman at the time, so it was legal - check your local laws - since 9-11 - things might have changed.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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empirevr
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Reged: 03/09/06
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Re: A quickie-12-bore rifle vs 500 or 577 bpe [Re: DarylS]
      #127271 - 16/02/09 05:41 PM

Thanks Daryl hope you are doing well.

I was just considering the merits of one or the other.......I like both very much.

However, why, oh why, when you read old stories of India et al do you hear of '12-boree elephant rifles' and yet the .577 was never named thus.....

Wonder which had any success on ele at all.....

I will take a buff trip one day not too far away I hope.

Ben


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