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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Lee Speed Forum & Archive

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Caprivi
.375 member


Reged: 30/09/08
Posts: 811
Loc: America's Serengeti, Buffalo W...
Re: Identification of Lee-Speed action... [Re: jc5]
      #121224 - 15/12/08 05:52 AM

Thanks for the info/update. I know next to nothing about Lee actions. I would love to built a Speed styled sporter but have not found a action that suits me.. Actually a WR marketed one is my preference, but........

Is there a action without charger guide and magazine cut-off ????

--------------------
To live life as it is handed to me from God


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jc5
.300 member


Reged: 10/10/07
Posts: 162
Loc: West Coast, USA
Re: Identification of Lee-Speed action... [Re: Caprivi]
      #121276 - 15/12/08 08:44 PM

Caprivi, commercial Lee Metfords and Lee Enfields (what we're generically calling "Lee Speeds" for convenience, whether or not they have the Lee Speed Patent stamp) were built on Magazine Lee Metford, Magazine Lee Enfield, and SMLE (Short Magazine Lee Enfield) actions. Only the SMLE-type actions had charger guides (you'll notice that Tinker's does not have a charger guide). However, the charger guide is useful to today's shooter becuase it makes it easier to add scope mounts without drilling into the rifle.

All Lee Speeds had the magazine cutoff, except for those chambered for the .375 Flanged Express. If you don't like the cutoff, it only takes a screwdriver to remove it.

To make a fake Lee Speed method #1 (the cheap way): I would get hold of a decent SMLE No.1, MkIII* and replace the wood with a sporter stock (hang on to the original wood; someone will need it someday). Remove the ugly military backsight and add some folding leaf express sights. For the fore-end and buttstock, the Slee furniture in the above post looks very nice, but it does not look much like a Lee Speed stock. However, there is no source of original or repro stocks that match the original Lee Speed pattern, so choose a stock that suits you. You won't have a true Lee Speed, or even one that looks like one, but you'll have a smooth, well-balanced attractive Lee Enfield sporter that is tastefully done in the spirit of the classic sporters--it will put bubba to shame and be a lot of fun to shoot and show off.

To make a fake Lee Speed method #2 (more expensive than buying a genuine Lee Speed): find a Long Lee action (MLE or MLM) that no longer has a barrel--please don't rip up an intact Long Lee--or as in the previous example, use an SMLE MkIII*. Find a Lithgow heavy barrel, such as were made by Lithgow from the 1920s to 1950s for Australian rifle clubs, and fit it to your receiver. (Thicker barrels, like the Lithgow Heavy and the Long Lee look more attractive on a sporter than the thinner SMLE barrel). Add modern express sights (the original BSA cape sights are no longer available), and pay someone to make you a buttstock and fore-end from scratch, according to the exact dimensions of the original BSA sporters. Add engraving, your family crest, and smooth-rounded 5-shot magazine, sliding tang safety, and refinish to taste.

Keep in mind that Tinker's action at the top of this thread was not a sporter. It was a commercial gun (still a Lee Speed) that matched the military service rifle in every way except its markings (although it was probably better finished and had nicer wood). Such Lee Speeds were made for Volunteer units (for private purchase) and for target shooters who required a gun that matched the specs of the service rifle. His action is a rarity, because it was made according to the pattern of the very first Gov't Lee Metford--a pattern that was soon replaced with improved models. It retains features--like that early safety--that were recalled and removed on the military versions. Because this one was a private purchase, the owner decided he would keep that safety thank you very much. However, somehwere along the way, he lost the rest of the rifle! There's a story there somewhere...!

--------------------
Researching Lee Speeds and all commercial Lee Enfields. If you have data to share or questions, please send me a PM.


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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3482
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Identification of Lee-Speed action... [Re: jc5]
      #121286 - 15/12/08 11:39 PM

Oh I just love that little throw-away line there, jc5...
Quote:

add...sliding tang safety



After that, you might spend the rest of the afternoon bartering world peace, curing all known diseases, and locating Jimmy Hoffa!




Good information though.
Might still be more satisfying to find a genuine LS a bit down in condition (read 'affordable') and throw a few dollars and a bit of spare time at restoring it. With that early action Tinker is standing right at the bottom looking up!

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Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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jc5
.300 member


Reged: 10/10/07
Posts: 162
Loc: West Coast, USA
Re: Identification of Lee-Speed action... [Re: Marrakai]
      #121307 - 16/12/08 05:35 AM

LOL

You're bustin' me up Marrakai!


I was writing with a bit of grin, but NOT a smirk, I swear! In fact, I have a fake Lee Speed project underway right now: an orphaned MLM MkII* action with Lithgow heavy barrel. Still trying to decide what to do about the wood. I don't plan on engraving anything (!), but I have to devise some way to plug the unsightly holes on the left-hand side where the volley sight went. I was thinking of fitting a polished disc with my initials or something brash in Latin. I support the creation of homemade Lee Speeds 100%, provded they are done with care and attention to detail, and if they don't involve chopping up anything historical. But like I outlined in my last post, it's not cheap.

Marrakai is right about finding a genuine Lee Speed that needs some TLC. That's the best route that keeps you in the sanity lane. My very first Lee Speed was something of a bitsa along these lines. It was an engraved BSA No.1 or No.2 pattern (impossible now to tell which) with matching bolt, magazine, and fore-end. However, the barrel had been replaced with a military SMLE barrel, broad arrow and all. And then the whole thing was conspicuously reblued (maybe to cover the pitting). The owner had the good taste to keep the express sights and fit them to the new barrel. What's really funny is that the buttstock is a replacement--the checkering is clearly not up to BSA standards and the color doesn't match--but it had the tang safety fitted! That must have been a bit of work! If only these old rifles could talk...

As for Tinker's action, yeah, it's sort of like trying to restore a vintage motorcycle starting with only the frame. But the thing is super rare. I have never seen a commercial MLM MkI before this---have any of you? The thing belongs in a museum. Or in a display case in my study (hint, hint, Tinker!:)). Restoring it is sort of pointless. I think it's an amazing find and I appreciate it just for what it is. Certainly the earliest commercial Lee Metford I've ever seen. Hell, I've never even seen a Gov't MLM MkI, outside of books!

--------------------
Researching Lee Speeds and all commercial Lee Enfields. If you have data to share or questions, please send me a PM.


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Rowdy
.275 member


Reged: 12/09/04
Posts: 53
Loc: Victoria. Australia
Re: Identification of Lee-Speed action... [Re: jc5]
      #121564 - 19/12/08 06:45 PM

Yes - well identified and almost impossible to find the parts to restore.
The trigger gaurd should only fit the 8 round single row magazine as well.
However a couple of weeks ago I saw an example of my holy grail - yes they do exist - a BSA Lee Speed sporter built on the MK.I action - looked very much like the later Mk.II actioned rifles as you would imagine but the wood was a little fuller in the fore end and the grip cap had more of an angle - I will try to organise some pictures in the new year when I next see the owner.


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jc5
.300 member


Reged: 10/10/07
Posts: 162
Loc: West Coast, USA
Re: Identification of Lee-Speed action... [Re: Rowdy]
      #121570 - 19/12/08 09:18 PM

Hi Rowdy,

Man, I am eager to see that MkI sporter and every mark on it. They were certainly not produced for very long---BSA was producing the MkII early in 1892, so there were probably only a handful of MkI sporters.

Another interesting thing about Tinker's action--which is clearly a MkI-- is that the trigger is from a MkII. It has the cup for the sear. Weird.

...

On many early Lee Speeds I have seen a stamp that consists of a V in circle. Anyone know what that means?

--------------------
Researching Lee Speeds and all commercial Lee Enfields. If you have data to share or questions, please send me a PM.


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Caprivi
.375 member


Reged: 30/09/08
Posts: 811
Loc: America's Serengeti, Buffalo W...
Re: Identification of Lee-Speed action... [Re: jc5]
      #122890 - 03/01/09 12:37 PM

Found another bolt ??????? Maybe this one will work in your action



http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=119890491

--------------------
To live life as it is handed to me from God


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jc5
.300 member


Reged: 10/10/07
Posts: 162
Loc: West Coast, USA
Re: Identification of Lee-Speed action... [Re: Caprivi]
      #122905 - 03/01/09 05:43 PM

Happy New Year all!

That bolt might work, but it is not correct. I posted a picture of the correct bolt above.

Unfortunately, I do not own a Lee Metford MkI, so I cannot know for certain if a later bolt will work, though it seems like it would. Maybe if Tinker wants to meet up, I could try a MLM MkII bolt in the action and see if it works and headspaces. Has anyone tried it?

I would not do it though.

Besides, in addition to being a later model of bolt, the one on auction is for a carbine (swept forward and flattened handle). The carbine was still several years away from being invented when Tinker's action was made. Also, the carbine bolt has the new-fangled cocking piece safety, and Tinker's has the "old school" lever safety on the action. He couldn't be seen in decent company wearing TWO safeties, now could he?

The auction bolt is a good one, however, for someone who needs it for a MLM or MLE carbine, or for a Lee Speed sporter, which it could pass for. If you were to use this one for a built-up, "bitsa" Lee Speed imitation, well... the carbine style bolt looks stylish for sure, but unless you really plan to wear it in a saddle scabbard, it offers no ergonomic advantage over a regular bolt when actually shooting. Note that it is missing the bolt cover.
...

So, does anyone know what the stamp of the V in a circle might mean?

--------------------
Researching Lee Speeds and all commercial Lee Enfields. If you have data to share or questions, please send me a PM.


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darwinmauser
.300 member


Reged: 07/05/07
Posts: 217
Loc: Darwin NT
Re: Identification of Lee-Speed action... [Re: Rowdy]
      #126694 - 11/02/09 11:10 PM

Quote:

Yes - well identified and almost impossible to find the parts to restore.
The trigger gaurd should only fit the 8 round single row magazine as well.
However a couple of weeks ago I saw an example of my holy grail - yes they do exist - a BSA Lee Speed sporter built on the MK.I action - looked very much like the later Mk.II actioned rifles as you would imagine but the wood was a little fuller in the fore end and the grip cap had more of an angle - I will try to organise some pictures in the new year when I next see the owner.




I know where a "spare" single stack magazine can be aquired.


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