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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Lee Speed Forum & Archive

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xausa
.400 member


Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Lee Speed (How did this one get away?
      #125727 - 03/02/09 08:25 AM

Anyone know who ended up with this beauty? http://www.auctionarms.com/Search/DisplayItem.cfm?ItemNum=8969984.0

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shinz
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Reged: 11/05/08
Posts: 135
Loc: New Zealand
Re: Lee Speed (How did this one get away? [Re: xausa]
      #125729 - 03/02/09 09:16 AM

That rear sight is a bit of a thing isn't it? I shudder to think how much that would cost in todays money, obviously they had more time back then. Lovely old firearm, thanks.
Steve


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Story
.333 member


Reged: 15/10/08
Posts: 262
Loc: SE PA, USA
Re: Lee Speed (How did this one get away? [Re: shinz]
      #125730 - 03/02/09 10:57 AM

That looks like it started out life as a MLE Mk1 service rifle, the barrel appears to still be factory stock.

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jc5
.300 member


Reged: 10/10/07
Posts: 162
Loc: West Coast, USA
Re: Lee Speed (How did this one get away? [Re: Story]
      #125750 - 03/02/09 06:34 PM

Here's how it looks to me, at a glance: It was never a service rifle; no Gov't stamps. It was made as a commercial rifle by BSA, almost certainly of the MLE ("Long Lee") configuration, and probably used as a target rifle. The barrel was cut down to its current length in order to compete in matches with the SMLE. The muzzle looks like a Rifle Club conversion (i.e., a Lithgow Heavy). The only odd thing is the advertised barrel length of 26-1/4", because the standard rifle club length was 25.2". Maybe they're measuring it incorrectly.

The buttstock and forend are not in any of the usual Lee Speed styles; they look completely custom. I'd bet that forend and that barrel did not originally go together, as witnessed by the extra space on either side of the barrel. It also looks like there was a rear sight on the barrel that was removed.

I think there was a lot of custom work on this gun. It doesn't look like an original sporter, but it certainly is a commercial gun, and it looks beautiful. Maybe the lucky owner will chime in and confirm the barrel measurements.


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Huvius
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Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3518
Loc: Colorado
Re: Lee Speed (How did this one get away? [Re: jc5]
      #125899 - 05/02/09 04:31 PM

So, this one is not really a Lee Speed. Does that explain the price of $650?

What should the price range on a Lee Speed be?
There is this one: http://www.gunsinternational.com/detail.cfm?id=100069836&string=cid=242
Close to $4K seems like the top of the LS market to me. Am I wrong?

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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jc5
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Reged: 10/10/07
Posts: 162
Loc: West Coast, USA
Two types of Lee Speeds [Re: Huvius]
      #125904 - 05/02/09 06:33 PM

No, that one WAS really a Lee Speed, at least according to my definition, which is: a commercially made Lee Metford or Lee Enfield, intended for sale to civilians and not surplus. I use the term "Lee Speed" as a convenient way to refer to any commercial gun, whether it's a sporter or a military configuration, regardless of whether it actually says "Lee Speed patents" on it.

Other the other hand, a gun that was made at RSAF Enfield (except maybe an Envoy or Enforcer on the No.4 pattern), or at BSA/LSA as part of a War Office contract is therefore NOT a 'Lee Speed." Even if it was restocked with the fanciest walnut checkered stock by the most expensive gunsmith in all of Patagonia, inlaid with ivory horn caps, fitted with a match barrel, a solid gold magazine, and had a Swiss watch fitted to the buttstock...it will never be a Lee Speed. It is still a surplus gun, made originally for the military. It would be a very fancy sporterization, but still a sporterized rifle.

Maybe a better term than "Lee Speeds" is simply "commercial Lee Enfield."

Among the commercial rifles (often stamped "Lee Speed patents"), you will find sporters (i.e., short slender forends, pistol grips, express sights; intended for hunting game) and also rifles in military configuration (often indiscriminately called Volunteer Patterns, Territorial Patterns). These latter looks almost exactly like the Gov't military rifles, and will be found to resemble Long Lees, Charger Loading Lee Enfields, even SMLEs. That is, they look just like your average Army equivalent, except they will have a nicer finish, nicer wood, and perhaps some custom touches, maybe target sights. And they will NOT have any sovereign's crown, or a date, or any Gov't stamps or proofs...unless they were drafted into service at some later date, which is a whole can of worms and source of headache for those of us who are researching these things. These military type rifles were usually privately purchased by Volunteer officers or by civilian target shooters.

As for explaining prices...well, no one can explain that. Why does someone let go of one for $650 and another guy asks $4000? There's no Price Guide out there that is worth anything. There's only how much someone is willing to pay. In a less enlightened era, we called this "the market." A fellow sold me a Long Lee once for $500 because he needed the money. If another guys asks four grand, then maybe he doesn't (in his heart of hearts) really want to sell it? I have never seen a Lee Speed sell for more than $2,000 (and that was pristine), but I'm sure someone has paid more, if they really wanted it. On the lower end, I have seen decent shooters with swapped parts sell for around $600.

Often, commercial Lees are simply misidentified as Gov't rifles or carbines. Just as often, sporters are misdiagnosed a "conversions." In both cases, they sell for less money than they otherwise would.

If anyone out there owns a Lee Speed and want more info, or if you know of a rifle that MIGHT be a Lee Speed, please feel free to contact me.

Cheers,
JC

--------------------
Researching Lee Speeds and all commercial Lee Enfields. If you have data to share or questions, please send me a PM.


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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3475
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Two types of Lee Speeds [Re: jc5]
      #125927 - 06/02/09 01:23 AM

Quote:

Lee Speed, at least according to my definition, which is: a commercially made Lee Metford or Lee Enfield
Maybe a better term than "Lee Speeds" is simply "commercial Lee Enfield."



Admittedly the lines are sometimes blurred, but making it up as you go along...?

Plenty of 'factory' sporters were made up on Lee Metford and Lee Enfield actions, but they are not Lee Speeds, no matter how much you may want them to be!

And who cares? Factory Lee sporters of any kind from the heyday of Empire are all marvellous things!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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jc5
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Reged: 10/10/07
Posts: 162
Loc: West Coast, USA
Re: Two types of Lee Speeds [Re: Marrakai]
      #125942 - 06/02/09 03:23 AM

I don't follow ya Marrakai. What's the difference between a factory sporter and a Lee Speed?

I'm not asking anyone else to follow my definition. I'm just describing how I use the term "Lee Speed," which is a Lee Metford or Lee Enfield that was originally made for sale to civilians.

Such a rifle made in say, 1899, would say "Lee Speed Patents", but an identical one made ten years later would lack that stamp. To me, those are both Lee Speeds. If others disagree, I'm OK with that. It's just a generic shorthand reference anyway, to make conversation easier. There was never an official model called a "Lee Speed."

I put Gov't surplus in a different category. But I agree that all Lee Metfords and Lee Enfields from the heyday of the Empire are marvelous things!

BTW, I sent you a PM some while back. Not sure if it went through. Feel free to PM me.

Cheers!


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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
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Re: Two types of Lee Speeds [Re: jc5]
      #126461 - 10/02/09 01:44 AM

Re-reading my previous post it came over a little harsh, certainly killed the thread! Apologies gentlemen, that was certainly not my intention.
Quote:

What's the difference between a factory sporter and a Lee Speed?



Here's my understanding of things:
Birmingham Small Arms (BSA) were happily building MLM Mk.I rifles during the late 1880s, when the new pattern (Mk.II) appeared, approved in 1890.
Unfortunately, Govt delays went on for a couple of years, with BSA waiting for the contract. During this time there was considerable pressure to release a sporting rifle on the MLM action for the 'new' .303 cartridge, so in 1992 BSA lost their patience and released a sporter on the Mk.I action. To sever any ties with the official military pattern, these rifles were marked "Lee Speed Patents" on the ferrule (often with BSA&Co as well), and sold initially for 6 pounds 10 shillings. They are the rifles we now call Lee Speeds.

Concurrently, BSA and LSA continued to make a 'Service Pattern' rifle for civilian use, which sold for 4 quid. When the Mk.II contract was finally awarded, civilian versions of that sold for 5 quid. These rifles have BSA&Co or LSA&Co on the ferrule, without the 'Lee Speed Patents' wording.

The Lee Speeds proved popular, and hence were made continuously up to at least 1912, and probably to the beginning of WWI. Three grades (patterns) were offered, with a number of options including 10-round mag at no extra cost, swept-forward flattened bolt handles on the No.1 and No.2 patterns, and tangent sights. Optional extras included the Metford Mk.II bolt (no cocking-piece safety), long barrel (up to 30 inches!), trap butt-plate with oil-bottle and pull-through, and Metford rifling (at least until 1912).

Other civilian versions of the service rifle, through its various numbers and marks, were made up by BSA for sale or release to the trade virtually continuously till the end of Lee Enfield production. The latest one I know of personally is my ~1950s Churchill sporter on a 1945 Ishapore No.1 Mk.III action, but Parker Hale variants probably made it into the 1960s.

Authors like Skennerton, Linney, Faris etc have no trouble identifying Lee Speeds from the various MLM and MLE sporters around at the time. Sporting service-pattern rifles are simply not Lee Speeds. I never like to say 'never' where the British gun trade is concerned, but all Lee Speeds will have 'Lee Speed Patents' on the ferrule, unless it has been removed. If not, its not a Lee Speed.


BTW, I did receive your PM a while back, it hit my desk at a busy time and I wanted to dig out my research before replying. I wish there were more days in the week. Any extra would simply get soaked up by guns and shooting, though!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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jc5
.300 member


Reged: 10/10/07
Posts: 162
Loc: West Coast, USA
Re: Two types of Lee Speeds [Re: Marrakai]
      #126614 - 11/02/09 04:16 AM

No worries Marraki, thanks for clarifying your post.

I pretty much agree with all you say, although I think restricting "Lee Speeds" to only those that acknowledge the patent is a bit restrictive, and prefer my definition of a rifle purposely built for civilian sale. But no big deal. Your definition is certainly valid, and easily supported.

One problem though. You wrote "Sporting service-pattern rifles are simply not Lee Speeds." Do you mean Gov't surplus rifles that have been "sporterized" (i.e, made to look like huntin' rifles)? If so, I agree 100%. Those are not Lee Speeds. But if you mean service pattern rifles (like Long Lees, for example), that were purposely made for civilian sale (to target shooters, for example), then many of those should qualify, because they will often be found with the "Lee Speed patents" stamp.

I'm not trying to quibble, and I respect your definition. I agree that when most people think of Lee Speeds, they think of the sporter (as per "The Ghost & The Darkness"), and that's fine. But there were generations of target shooters who used military pattern rifles that bore the "Lee Speed" stamp.

...

BTW, did you ever locate that MkI Lee Speed sporter that you mentioned on another thread? I'm eager to see that! I have long suspected that the first sporter was made on the MkI pattern, because BSA was still tooling up for the MkII, but have never encountered one.

Best regards,
Jc5


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