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Morten
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Loc: Ås, Norway
Top three collectors gun ??
      #126273 - 08/02/09 07:57 PM

Just wandering what doubles that would bee the ultimate gun to collect, from a collectoers point of vue.

I think this would bee my list.

Holland and Holland 600NE (1930's)
J Purdey (400NE 1930's)
Westley Richards (577NE 1930')

I dont know why i tend to like guns from this age. They are suposed to bee of a particular good quality, and they very often are, but I merly find that these guns are very nicly shaped and in very good proposjons.

The H&H 600 must bee the ultimate collectoers item, 14 ever made.(untill recently)
Purdey 400, because it is an extremly well balanced and proposjned gun and I think the 400 caliber is underestiamted. They are rare to begin with and most of these 400's are rechambered to 45-70
WR 577 Just because I love the history of James Sutherland

I have handeled al these guns (including Sutherlands own 577, I tried to bye it but was about 45.000£ short) and If I had to take only one it would have been a long day wating for my decittion.


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Der_Jaeger
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Re: Top three collectors gun ?? [Re: Morten]
      #126289 - 08/02/09 10:32 PM


I don't see how you can separate Jeffery from that group, either.

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Edited by Der_Jaeger (08/02/09 10:45 PM)


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grandveneur
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Re: Top three collectors gun ?? [Re: Der_Jaeger]
      #126291 - 08/02/09 10:37 PM

May be because Jeffery was a guntrader and not a gunmaker?

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Der_Jaeger
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Re: Top three collectors gun ?? [Re: grandveneur]
      #126292 - 08/02/09 10:59 PM

Quote:

May be because Jeffery was a guntrader and not a gunmaker?




Really? W. J. Jeffery & Company were not gunmakers? I thought William Jackman Jeffery was a London gunmaker and was responsible for the development of the .600 NE? I'm sure we're talking about two different "Jeffery's".

I would also add the name Rigby as an inseparable to the aforementioned names above.

Choosing the top three is tough!! Also, at what point does Boss drop off the list?

Obviously, I could never choose only three

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gatsby
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Re: Top three collectors gun ?? [Re: Morten]
      #126327 - 09/02/09 04:59 AM

What three from a collectors perspective? The lists will be many and varied just as there are many different collectors out there.
For big bore fans would it get any better than this:

Engraved Holland and Holland double 4 bore rifle
Westley Richards 8 bore Explora droplock
Jeffery 600 nitroexpress

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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Anonymous
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Re: Top three collectors gun ?? [Re: Morten]
      #126330 - 09/02/09 05:25 AM

From a monetary & collector standpoint: There's actually [6] on my list.

1. James Purdey & Sons Best Sidelock Ejector Extra Finish 470 [modern era] Brown Brothers Engraving

2. John Rigby Best Quality Sidelock Ejector 577 3" [1930's] Harry Kell engraving

3. Boss & Co. Best Sidelock Ejector Extra Finish 577 3" [1930's] Harry Kell engraving

4. Peter Hofer Best Sidelock Ejector Exhibition Grade 17HMR [modern era] Phil Coggan or Firmo Fracassi engraving

5. Hartmann & Weiss Best Sidelock Ejector Exhibition Grade 600 Nitro [modern era] Phillip Griffnee engraving

6. Peter Nelson Best Sidelock Ejector Exhibition Grade 470 [modern era] Brown Brothers engraving


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Anonymous
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Re: Top three collectors gun ?? [Re: Der_Jaeger]
      #126334 - 09/02/09 05:35 AM


Really? W. J. Jeffery & Company were not gunmakers? I thought William Jackman Jeffery was a London gunmaker and was responsible for the development of the .600 NE? I'm sure we're talking about two different "Jeffery's".

I would also add the name Rigby as an inseparable to the aforementioned names above.

Choosing the top three is tough!! Also, at what point does Boss drop off the list?

Obviously, I could never choose only three






WJ Jeffery was a retailer my friend. The double rifles were built by Harry Leonard and I believe most of the shotguns came from John Saunders, both these guys were from Birmingham.


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gatsby
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Re: Top three collectors gun ?? [Re: ]
      #126339 - 09/02/09 06:15 AM

Of course if we were talking small bore, any decent list would have to start out with a matched set of faunetas....

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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Anonymous
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Re: Top three collectors gun ?? [Re: gatsby]
      #126340 - 09/02/09 06:16 AM

Quote:

Of course if we were talking small bore, any decent list would have to start out with a matched set of faunetas....




Are you still lusting after my pair?


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gatsby
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Re: Top three collectors gun ?? [Re: ]
      #126342 - 09/02/09 06:27 AM

Well, they are very special.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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rigbymauser
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Re: Top three collectors gun ?? [Re: gatsby]
      #126345 - 09/02/09 06:49 AM


Oh.well...my top 3 vintage double rifles:

1) 8 bore by H&H
2) 500/450 Dominion H&H
3) A nice Rigby in their inhouse .450 Nitro

I know one day I`LL get one of them.
I could have said a H&H Royal in .600/577 Rewa, but the top three I have put down are choices I know, that are within a realistic reach one day in the years to come.


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Der_Jaeger
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Re: Top three collectors gun ?? [Re: ]
      #126348 - 09/02/09 07:23 AM

Quote:



WJ Jeffery was a retailer my friend. The double rifles were built by Harry Leonard and I believe most of the shotguns came from John Saunders, both these guys were from Birmingham.




Again, I learn something new every day! Terry Wieland is absolutely wrong on this one, too. Reference pages 43, 48, & 49 in his book "Dangerous Game Rifles". Well, I never cared for Terry, anyway He claims that W. Jeffery, a noted gunmaker in London, was taken over by H&H in 1960 and that Paul Roberts acquired the rights to the name in 2000. Wm. Jeffery went into business in 1889 as W.J. Jeffery & Company and built double rifles, including the .600 NE in 1901. He states Jeffery also built single rifles, bolt rifles, and shotguns. All this, according to the book.



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Edited by Der_Jaeger (09/02/09 07:26 AM)


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Anonymous
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Re: Top three collectors gun ?? [Re: Der_Jaeger]
      #126362 - 09/02/09 10:30 AM

Quote:

Quote:



WJ Jeffery was a retailer my friend. The double rifles were built by Harry Leonard and I believe most of the shotguns came from John Saunders, both these guys were from Birmingham.




Again, I learn something new every day! Terry Wieland is absolutely wrong on this one, too. Reference pages 43, 48, & 49 in his book "Dangerous Game Rifles". Well, I never cared for Terry, anyway He claims that W. Jeffery, a noted gunmaker in London, was taken over by H&H in 1960 and that Paul Roberts acquired the rights to the name in 2000. Wm. Jeffery went into business in 1889 as W.J. Jeffery & Company and built double rifles, including the .600 NE in 1901. He states Jeffery also built single rifles, bolt rifles, and shotguns. All this, according to the book.





In his joint patent application with E. Harrison (of Cogswell and Harrison) on January 29, 1886 for a Vernier and Wind Gauge Sight Adjuster, Jeffery described himself as a Gun Salesman, and that is what he was in brief. After a falling out with P. Webley where he was the manager, Jeffery set up business during 1887 at the age of [30]. Just how many guns Jeffery made is unknown, it is possible that he made none, preferring to source from the trade. Early on, the Birmingham maker Thomas Turner Jr made most of Jeffery’s rifles. H. Leonard & Co seems to have been his major source, some came from Webley and Scott and others as mentioned previously. They were finished by firms such as Thomas Turner, Richard Ellis, H. Leonard, Webley & Scott, Saunders, and Charles Osborne. He even retailed Sharps single shot rifles for a time.

Jeffery was basically co-ordinator, buying in parts, and sending them out to out-workers for assembly. Perhaps, his best contribution is as a cartridge designer, his crowning achievement being the .600 NE, but he played around with most bore sizes, .500 being a notable exception.

Hope this helps clear it up for you.


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Der_Jaeger
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Re: Top three collectors gun ?? [Re: ]
      #126368 - 09/02/09 11:02 AM


Generalwar,

Interesting indeed. Thank you! It's odd how two references state exactly the opposite thing. The addage of not always trusting what you read certainly holds true.

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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: Top three collectors gun ?? [Re: ]
      #126369 - 09/02/09 11:04 AM

I had the three I wanted at one time.

A 500/465 Modele de Lux Holland (1912). A .369 Purdey (1941) and a .303 Watson Bros (1922).

I sold the first two and still have the .303. Now I want a nice 470 Rigby Rising bite from the early 20's and a .577 WR Droplock from the early 30's.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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Anonymous
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Re: Top three collectors gun ?? [Re: mickey]
      #126371 - 09/02/09 11:14 AM

Quote:

I had the three I wanted at one time.

A 500/465 Modele de Lux Holland (1912). A .369 Purdey (1941) and a .303 Watson Bros (1922).

I sold the first two and still have the .303. Now I want a nice 470 Rigby Rising bite from the early 20's and a .577 WR Droplock from the early 30's.




I think I remember the H&H was it covered in scenes by Griffnee?

Finding a nice rising bite 470 shouldn't be that difficult a nice gent from Surrey had one at SCI. The WR on the other hand will be very difficult to run down in that config.


Quote:


Generalwar,

Interesting indeed. Thank you! It's odd how two references state exactly the opposite thing. The addage of not always trusting what you read certainly holds true.




Your very welcome.


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1980E26
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Reged: 03/05/05
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Loc: USA
Re: Top three collectors gun ?? [Re: ]
      #126387 - 09/02/09 02:08 PM


For me it would have to be the following three. All prewar naturally

Holland Royal .600NE (Rewa rifle)
Purdey .600NE SLE
Jeffery .600NE snap action


Honorable mention- Hartmann & Weiss 600NE (royal clone) the only .600NE double they have made.

The .600NE is the ultimate double rifle caliber. If you have ever fired one you will know what I mean.

Bike Rider


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ChrisPer
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Re: Top three collectors gun ?? [Re: 1980E26]
      #126397 - 09/02/09 02:38 PM

I would just like to see and handle some of these...

For me it would not be only the named examples, but who had owned and used them. Bell's first Mannlicher, for instance...


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Grenadier
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Re: Top three collectors gun ?? [Re: Morten]
      #126402 - 09/02/09 03:14 PM

Quote:

Just wandering what doubles that would be the ultimate gun to collect, from a collector's point of view.




1. Sir Samuel White Baker's "Baby".
2. Teddy Roosevelt's “The Big Stick”.
3. James Sutherland's ‘heavy .577’


Details:

1. Sir Samuel White Baker's "Baby".

"The rifle was made by Gibbs of Bristol. The weight was 21 lbs., length of barrel 36 inches, weight of spherical belted bullet 3 ounces, of conical bullet 4 ounces, charge of powder 16 drams. The twist was one full turn in the length of barrel. The rifling was an exceedingly deep and broad groove (two grooves), which reduced the difficulty of loading to a minimum, as the projecting belt enabled the bullet to catch the channel instantly, and to descend easily when wrapped in a greased silk patch without the necessity of hammering. The charge of powder was inserted by inverting the rifle and passing up the loading-rod with an ounce measure screwed to the end; this method prevented the powder from adhering to the sides of the barrel, and thus fouling the grooves.

An extraordinary success attended this rifle, which became my colossal companion for many years in wild sports with dangerous game. It will be observed that the powder charge was one-third the weight of the projectile, and not only a tremendous crushing power, but an extraordinary penetration was obtained, never equalled by any rifle that I have since possessed."

2. Teddy Roosevelt's “The Big Stick”, a Holland & Holland 'Royal' in .450.

"This was the most powerful gun ever owned by one of history’s most famous sportsmen, Theodore Roosevelt. In 1908, Roosevelt considered going to Africa on safari with his son Kermit after he left office. The huge undertaking became a combined safari/vacation/scientific expedition that would cost some $75,000, part of which was underwritten by steel magnate Andrew Carnegie, with other expenses to be offset by income that Roosevelt was to receive from Scribner’s Magazine for his exclusive accounts.

Roosevelt wrote to Kermit “I think I shall get a double-barreled .450 cordite… It is no child’s play going after lion, elephant, rhino and buffalo.” Perhaps acting on this knowledge, this rifle was built in 1908, and in January 1909 Edward North Buxton, a personal friend of Roosevelt and a well-known hunter, together with a group of 55 British zoologists and sporting enthusiasts, presented the rifle as a gift. In a note of thanks to Buxton, Roosevelt called the rifle “a perfect beauty. The workmanship is like that of a watch…I cannot say how delighted I am with it.”

Kermit Roosevelt recalled “it shoots very accurately, but of course the recoil is tremendous....so severe that it became a standing joke as to whether we did not fear it more than a charging elephant!” This monster of a rifle later acquired the unofficial nickname of “The Big Stick,” derived from Roosevelt’s famous quotation “speak softly and carry a big stick,” itself from a West African proverb."

3. James Sutherland's ‘heavy .577’ double-barreled, detachable lock, ejector rifle by Westly Richards.

"After experimenting with and using all kinds of rifles, I find the most effective to be the double .577 with a 750 grains bullet and a charge in Axite powder equivalent to a hundred grains of cordite. The heavier double-barrelled .600 bore rifle, with a bullet weighing 900 grains, lacks the penetration of the .577, while its weight (16 lbs. against 13 lbs. of the latter) renders it a much more awkward weapon to handle. I think the superiority of the .577 over the .450 and .500 rifles, will be evident when I state that I have lost elephants with these last two rifles, while I have bagged others with identically the same shots from a .577."

~

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~


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gatsby
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Re: Top three collectors gun ?? [Re: Grenadier]
      #126407 - 09/02/09 03:38 PM

Provenance certainly adds to the rarity and collectabilty of these firearms.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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mickey
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Re: Top three collectors gun ?? [Re: ]
      #126416 - 09/02/09 06:48 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I had the three I wanted at one time.

A 500/465 Modele de Lux Holland (1912). A .369 Purdey (1941) and a .303 Watson Bros (1922).

I sold the first two and still have the .303. Now I want a nice 470 Rigby Rising bite from the early 20's and a .577 WR Droplock from the early 30's.




I think I remember the H&H was it covered in scenes by Griffnee?




No, that was a Royal. I sold the de Lux abut 10 years ago for what I thought then was a lot of money. I was in a, it's too nice to use so why have it, phase. Which I quickly grew out of.

Now no rifle is too pretty to use, at least once.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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Morten
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Re: Top three collectors gun ?? [Re: mickey]
      #126492 - 10/02/09 08:11 AM

Very interesting guys,

Generalwar, your list is particularly interesting, Why doo you consider new guns with engravings by these master as in particularly collectable?

A new Purdey 470 (like this) but with brown brothers engraving can you basicly bye every day (if you have the money and can get a slott inn with the brown brothers and pay them rediculas amount of money to doo the job) I know that they have a long waiting list and doo only a very limited nr a year, but this does only make their signature collectable,though their work is fantastic.



And why do you consider Grefnee as worth collecting? I have seen a lot of his work and in my view he is just above avarage,

Brown brothers and Ken Hunt yes, because you have a 10 year witing list and Ken only doo about 5 guns a year and is 80 years old. Phil and simon Coggan maybee, grifnee, no. This is my oppinion upon the quality of work I have seen from them.


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Anonymous
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Re: Top three collectors gun ?? [Re: Morten]
      #126501 - 10/02/09 10:37 AM

Quote:

Generalwar, your list is particularly interesting, Why do you consider new guns with engravings by these masters as in particularly collectible?




During the last 25 years I have bought and sold both vintage and new high end pieces, such as the ones I have listed, and found them to be the most exciting, and profitable. Perhaps others have had different results, but this is my experience with such pieces.

Quote:

A new Purdey 470 (like this) but with brown brothers engraving can you basicly bye every day (if you have the money and can get a slott inn with the brown brothers and pay them rediculas amount of money to doo the job) I know that they have a long waiting list and doo only a very limited nr a year, but this does only make their signature collectable,though their work is fantastic.




Not true my friend. Here in America a premium is paid for a new high end gun with a well known master engraver. It has to be the right artist with the right canvas so to speak but collectors pay big premiums not to wait. For instance Bob Lee purchased a new Peter Hofer 22 Hornet engraved by Fracassi in Reno this year and paid $420,000USD for it. The gent that had the gun paid $360,000USD just 12 months earlier. Remember these guns are very limited production pieces, and are looked at as much as art, as they are a weapon. I'm referring to the top 1% only.

Quote:

And why do you consider Grefnee as worth collecting? I have seen a lot of his work and in my view he is just above avarage.




I have to respectably disagree. Griffnee's early work was very good, perhaps even great at times, but not masterful. However, from about 1985 on, he went to a whole new level as seen here on this exceptional Holland 375 exhibition grade. To call Phillip average is a bit of a leap backwards.



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gatsby
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Re: Top three collectors gun ?? [Re: ]
      #126553 - 10/02/09 04:34 PM


That's collecting; one person will knock over a whole table of Griffnee engraved guns to get to one old warhorse and vica-versa. Collecting these guns doesn't always make sense and certainly isn't always profitable.
Outstanding take by Griffnee on an older Holland theme, by the way.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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Morten
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Reged: 24/04/04
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Re: Top three collectors gun ?? [Re: gatsby]
      #126572 - 10/02/09 07:55 PM

You can walk in into Purdey's ( or somewhare else) and order (that was what I ment in my previus post, sorry) yourself a new 470 and if you are lucky you will have BB to engrave it. It is true as you say that if you have one, you can sell it with a profit the day after. And you cant find one finished for sale easily, probably not at all. This makes it collectable but what I wonder about is if this is more collectable than guns with the right provenance and rarety. But you are als right in the fact that if you are lucky to get one of these top engraver to doo your job, it is colectable. But what you collect then is the (boiled down) the engravers signature. i normaly says that if you get a multicollor gold engraved Hunt its like bying a picasso if he was alive today.

Regrding greefnee I have seen quite a lot of his new work the last 3,5 year. You are right that his gargyles and grotuesk is good. his deep carving is very good and not meny can doo this, but I have seen better and cleaner from a few others. His lettering is very clean, But what have not impressed mee is his game scenes, I would not have it on my gun, that is for sure. i could name 10 engravers who doo better game scenes, and we have not started on the italians yet!. better quality of engraving and better design. I dont want to slagg him off but Me personally would not considder him collectble. I would have his former apprentice work any day before his. Cicile Flohiment. I guess he is a hate or love thing. And I am maybee too spoiled with looking at good stuff every day.

Edited by Morten (10/02/09 08:20 PM)


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