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Lionheart
.224 member


Reged: 21/08/07
Posts: 7
Loc: Laguna Beach
New Project - .577 or .600
      #106511 - 02/06/08 06:44 PM

I've been lurking a long time but I think I am now ready to publicly commit to starting my long-in-the-planning-stage project.

Many years ago, I passed on the opportunity to purchase a Holland and Holland Royal Grade dr in .577 NE for $11,500 due to my (then) wife's objections. (If I had invested in the gun rather than in my marriage, I would be much better for it today.) It was built during the golden age between the wars and looked to be in virtually unfired condition. Well, spilt milk. I have long wanted to correct that regretable decision but a direct replacement just hasn't been possible with prices being what they have been in recent years. Also, as a young man, I toted a .416 Rigby around East Africa and, though it was splendid tool of which I was very fond, I was always shyly envious of the dr's many of my friends possessed. So, about fifteen years ago, I came up with the "novel" idea of converting a shotgun and thus I searched for and found what I thought would be a good candidate for the conversion. I naively thought that no one else had ever considered the idea of converting a shotgun, much less acted upon it. In any case, I'm happy to see I was wrong and the road is well-traveled and easily (hopefully) followed. The gun I acquired back then is a Greener 10b fowler. As one can see from the pictures, it is a stoutly built boxlock with damascus barrels and simple engraving. It's relatively tight and I've shot it a few times in the marshes. I'm guessing it is a turn-of-the-century gun but I need to apply to Greener for its history. I had always planned to make it into .577 3" but recently have begun flirting with the idea of a .600 mainly due to their relative scarcity (compared to the .577) and because I think I have that rare cadidate meaty enough for what would be a pretty unique project. I recently revisited Taylor and found that Pondoro was very fond of his .600 and I think one can read into his comments that he prefered it slightly to the .577. Not that it matters, I doubt I will again be after dangerous game in Africa and this project will, in all liklihood, end up as a nostalgic wall hanger - but one never knows.

I solicit everyone's comments and advice plus I have a few specific questions:

1. Does the age of my gun, and by this I mean the prevailing metalurgy at the time of its manufacture, need to be considered when choosing the calibre/load?
2. I would like to replace the damascus barrels with modern nitro damacus. Does anyone have experience with Damastlauf barrels from Germany or know anything about rebarreling with damascus?
3. For Bramble and the other machinists out there: The current rib is very nice - it has the maker's name and its engraving matches that of the action. If I were to remove it, with the intention of re-using it later during reassembly, would this complicate the removal of the old barrels and the machining of the monobloc? Will I even be able to re-use it? Btw, In terms of stationary machinery, in my garage I have a South Bend heavy 10 with tapering attachment and collet closer and a Tree Journeyman 3, no dro. Am I OK there? I am an amateur machinist (owned a tool & die shop) but I've never done a major gunsmithing project.

Marrakai, having gone down a similar road with a similar gun, I'm particularly interested in your comments about the suitability of my "raw material".

Thanks in advance for everyone's comments and it's exciting to finally be a participant here.

[image]http://app.onlinephotofiler.com/LargePhoto.aspx?PhotoId=3144509[/image]
[image]http://app.onlinephotofiler.com/LargePhoto.aspx?PhotoId=3144510[/image]
[image]http://app.onlinephotofiler.com/LargePhoto.aspx?PhotoId=3144513[/image]
[image]http://app.onlinephotofiler.com/LargePhoto.aspx?PhotoId=3144507[/image]
[image]http://app.onlinephotofiler.com/LargePhoto.aspx?PhotoId=3144512[/image]
[image]http://app.onlinephotofiler.com/LargePhoto.aspx?PhotoId=3144508[/image]

Hmmmm, no pics. This might take a while to figure out. Help .. anyone?

[image]http://photos.studiorenovatio.com/images/A_6/9/1/3/33196/hqn5oo24.jpg[/image]
[image]http://photos.studiorenovatio.com/images/A_6/9/1/3/33196/wctuyfq2.jpg[/image]
[image]http://photos.studiorenovatio.com/images/A_6/9/1/3/33196/1b4w1n55.jpg[/image]
[image]http://photos.studiorenovatio.com/images/A_6/9/1/3/33196/b5jvdfkz.jpg[/image]
[image]http://photos.studiorenovatio.com/images/A_6/9/1/3/33196/01shchkl.jpg[/image]
[image]http://photos.studiorenovatio.com/images/A_6/9/1/3/33196/atmc5koz.jpg[/image]


Hmmmm #2 Reduced the file sizes to under 35k each and put them in a public folder to no avail. I'm stumped. I guess you'll just have to copy and paste to your browser if your interested.

Edited by Lionheart (03/06/08 10:31 AM)

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4seventy
Sponsor


Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: New Project - .577 or .600 [Re: Lionheart]
      #106517 - 02/06/08 09:21 PM

Lionheart,
Welcome aboard, we're very pleased to hear from you!
That's a very interesting project you are planning.
As you know there are quite a few members here who have built doubles and who also hunt with double rifles converted from shotgun actions.
I'm sure the guys that you have mentioned, as well as other members, will be able to give some sound advice.
We also have a member here who is a gunmaker, and is in the process of building a .577 NE from scratch.
You have certainly come to the right place!

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 40493
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: New Project - .577 or .600 [Re: Lionheart]
      #106518 - 02/06/08 09:38 PM

I'll see if I can load up the photos for you.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: New Project - .577 or .600 [Re: NitroX]
      #106538 - 03/06/08 04:36 AM








--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Bramble
.375 member


Reged: 29/07/06
Posts: 950
Loc: England
Re: New Project - .577 or .600 [Re: Lionheart]
      #106550 - 03/06/08 09:03 AM

Hello Lionheart.

(If I had invested in the gun rather than in my marriage, I would be much better for it today.)

Yeah got that T shirt

OK

If it is going to be mostly for the joy of owning it and not to hunt with then go for the .600. Personally I think it is too much gun for hunting in this day and age but a great thing to own.

I don't know your age or condition so forgive me if this seems rude I don't mean it so. Have you considered the number of rounds that will need to be fired to regulate this? Maybe 100 plus over a few days because you have no starting point for reference. That is a bastard with a .600. Not great with a .577 either. That is not to discourage you but it would be a damm shame to do all the hard work and have it hospitalize you. There is a standard 1850 fps load and that is the one I would regulate for, rather than the 2050 load.

The rib.
Can you post a pic of the extension for the crossbolt. from the pics it is not clear if it is made as part of the rib?
If it is the rib likley brazed on. That being so, in the shop one is likley to ruin the temper of the block getting it off.

I don't however think that this is the end of the world, for if I was doing the project, I would seriously look at making new lumps. either a monoblock, or better IMO a shoe lump. My reasons for doing this would be that it would be difficult to make a damascus monoblock cosmetically match up with CrMo barrels. I have no experience with modern damascus but the patterns would not match in any event.

If you are a carefull machinist you could do the work and find a company that specialises in vacum brazing and let them fit it together and do that part for a very reasonable fee. A shoe lump is not hard to make ( basic mills, woodruf cutter and a fly cutter with carefull measurment.. This would allow you to black down and fit easily and at the same time fit a new hinge pin if it is worn. And if necessary skim the action face which looks from the pics a little pitted. The pressure bearing parts would all then be modern materials.

From the look of it the firing pins will need to be bushed as they look quite large.

When you are done, come visit me in London and we will take it to the proof house to get the proper marks on it to seal the project.

Hope the above helps

Regards

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500grains
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Re: New Project - .577 or .600 [Re: Bramble]
      #106567 - 03/06/08 01:28 PM

I vote for the .600. It is the ultimate ele cartridge. The .700 is way over the top.

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Lionheart
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Reged: 21/08/07
Posts: 7
Loc: Laguna Beach
Re: New Project - .577 or .600 [Re: 500grains]
      #106577 - 03/06/08 05:09 PM

A message of thanks.

Thank you 4seventy for your welcome and support and for being the firstever replier to a post of mine.

Thank you John for uploading my pictures for me and for running the best damn site on the net. Can you tell me what I did wrong as I will most likely be wanting to post pics again shortly?

Thank you Bramble for your thoughtful advice and interest which so demonstrate a willingness to help it shines through in all your posts. To comment on your reply:
I'm not old and feeble, just old. Actually, I'm not sooooo old, just 50. I am of large-ish stature at 6'3" and 220lb and, though never as fit as I'd like, I'm pretty fit. Not that any of that is any sort of predictor but hopefully I will be able to withstand the punishment of the regulation process as well as the next person. And I don't think your asking rude.
I do have a friend who is younger and much wealthier than I am who has been after me to go hunting with him in Africa (He's never been and none of his cosmo jet set friends have the interest or the experience) assuring me I'm not to worry about the expense, he'll see to it. So there is some chance this gun may see some action (though limited) in my hands. And my old friends IN Africa are beckoning me to come as well. So, maybe. Nevertheless, I'm still leaning toward the .600.
I will post a pic of the rib assuming I can figure out how to post a pic at all. I'm traveling at the moment but will be home tomorrow night. For the time being, I can tell you the crossbolt extension IS the rearmost part of the rib.
The damascus pattern is so worn off near the breech whence would come the monobloc that the metal in that area is indistinguishable from fluid steel. You're right though, I have no idea how the two widely differing steels would take the blueing. And if I do use damascus, you're right again, it would be aesthetically best for the barrels to continue uninterruptedly from breech to muzzle. With the shoe lump, is there any mechanical interlock between the shoe and the barrels? Or do the barrels merely rest in two troughs in the shoe and are thus brazed/welded, as it would appear in the Heym example of a set of .600 NE barrels in the white fitted to a shoe lump in the following pic?:

Or are flats on the bottom of the barrels just brazed/welded to the flat top of the shoe as in the leftmost diagram in the pic below from EFFEBI?

Apparently I've figured out how to attach pictures
I like the ideaa of the shoe lump for all the reasons you stated plus I wouldn't mind retaining the set of shotgun barrels if I decide not to use the original rib for the rifle barrels. I do plan on fitting a new hinge pin as well. Btw the face of the standing breech appears pitted in the pics but in actuality it is not at all.
Marrakai's Greener .577 firing pin holes measure 0.095". Mine appear in photos to be about the same size as his. I'll measure them when I get home.
When it's done I'll take you up on your offer to see you in London and prove it. That's not bar (pub) talk, that's a promise!

Thank you for your vote, 500 grains. I briefly considered the .700 for its novelty value but quickly reverted back to the .600.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: New Project - .577 or .600 [Re: Lionheart]
      #106581 - 03/06/08 06:12 PM

Quote:


Thank you John for uploading my pictures for me and for running the best damn site on the net. Can you tell me what I did wrong as I will most likely be wanting to post pics again shortly?




The photos in that post worked OK.

I loaded the photos onto my server but they still wouldn't work in the first post. I will have to investigate but I have an idea of the problem.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Bramble
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Re: New Project - .577 or .600 [Re: NitroX]
      #106597 - 04/06/08 12:49 AM

What is missing in the bottom left diagram is the bit of metal in the middle that will carry the extractor/ejector, rod/rods.

Personaly I would machine them as the Heym ones by using a flycutter although you will get a slightly different look from the side. perhaps the Heym has side fences? I don't remember. This can be altered anyway by getting the barrel maker to use large stock and then specify the end diamiter. The flats on the insides of the barrels can then be cut to give proper C-C on the firing pins and the correct overhang on the bed.
I think a couple of days with paper pencil and drawing board will save plenty in the long run.

If you want them from EFFEBI then you have to be a dealer. I am in contact with them anyway and can proberbly sort that for you. I have to say though, a pair of round Shillens, Llija etc will be a heck of a lot cheeper. I think that Lother Walther can do it also and I am a stockest of theirs also.

Much I think will depend on the dimension from the bed to firing pin centre as you are governed by this ultimatly. You may just not have enough for diagram 1.

You are welcome to PM me if I can help further.

Regards

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Lionheart
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Reged: 21/08/07
Posts: 7
Loc: Laguna Beach
Re: New Project - .577 or .600 [Re: Bramble]
      #106984 - 08/06/08 03:53 AM

At first blush, I really like the idea of the shoe lump as it would allow me to keep the barrel profile in the section around the chambers stout in order to concentrate weight in that area and avoid the shotgun style taper that using a monobloc would yield. However, upon examination of the extant lump system one can see how fine the shoe would have to be. Along their centerlines, the barrels are nearly flush with the surface of what would be the shoe and, at its outer edges, the shoe would only be about 1/8" thick max. Not nearly as beefy as that shown in the previously posted Heym pic. All of this is shown in the pic below. Do you think such a "fine" shoe would be serviceable?



If so, That is the direction I would like to take. I understand I could mill flats into the barrels in order to beef up the shoe section. To a point, I can always take away from one to give to the other.

Well, I believe I need to decide about this before I order the barrels, which I further believe is the first concrete step to be taken in this project and I'm anxious to proceed. On that note, I need to lay out a critical path production plan as I frankly have little knowledge as to what to do when. I suppose Ellis's book would shed some light on that so I'll order it now. In any case, I know you used Llija barrels and were very pleased. I'll probably go with them upon your recommendation if you think they would be suitable for my project. After I spend some time with pencil and paper, as you say, I'll PM you for some help ordering the barrels.

Here's a pic of the rib/crossbolt extension but, if I won't be using the monobloc, that concern would be moot.



Thanks

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Bramble
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Re: New Project - .577 or .600 [Re: Lionheart]
      #106989 - 08/06/08 07:29 AM

You will need first to contact Llija and see if they do .577 or .600 barrels. I know lother walther do 577 I am not sure from memory about Llija, but I dont think they list them. Pac Nor do. Krieger do.
Personaly I think that the shoe lump will be fine. A lot has to do with fit.
Before you begin you need to contact a firm that can do vaccum/nitrogen brazing. This should not be done open hearth because of the possibility of 500 degreeF embrittlment of 4140CrMo. Also it will protect the rifling and the chamber as there is no scaleing. Do not let somebody talk you into open hearth !!
When you have spoken to them they will talk to you about brazing alloys. If you talk to the barrel manufacturers they will tell you what degreeF the barrels were tempered at. You will not want to braze at a temp higher than this as it will effect the properties of the barrel.
Whilst you are talking to them they will be able to tell you what clearences they need for brazing (this varies with alloy)Some are very forgiving .005 is common.
There is tremendous strength in a properly brazed article. Many other things would fail before the barrels detached from the shoe.

When machineing the lumps one must be as precise as possible for strength allowing only such clearence as they recommend. You may need to make a mild steel brazing jig to hold this lot together for them.

You need to plan the quater rib and crossbolt extension as it will have to be brazed together with the barrels and lumps.

The Hyem one looks different because I think that you would find the C-C of the firing pins is less on theirs.If you moved those barrels apart it would look like yours.

Whilst monoblocking is fine for a working gun (my own gun is done that way.) Taking the time to make lumps will produce a much finer finished article.

Try to work in one plane only at a time . i.e. set up in the mill for a vertical fly cut of the barrel beds. Without moving the set up drill for ejector rods. Now you can move the job 90 degrees for the action bed and lump cuts and all should be perfectly perpendicular.

Whilst you have the macine set I would make 2 of everything. The materials are not that expensive and if there is a screw up at any point then you only need to go back one step. If nothing goes wrong then it is a good excuse sometime in the future to get a set of barrels in another caliber.
The point is the set up takes the time not the cuts.

All the best

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Lionheart
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Reged: 21/08/07
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Loc: Laguna Beach
Re: New Project - .577 or .600 [Re: Bramble]
      #107006 - 08/06/08 02:41 PM

Bramble,

Thank you for the common sense production tips which I most certainly would have overlooked on my own. It's the weekend and I can't contact anyone here by phone but you are correct, at least according to their websites, as to the four barrel manufacturers you mention and which will produce a set of .600 barrels. Lothar Walther does not. I found a vacuum brazing company on the web located right nearby. web page Thermal Vac I'll call them Monday as well as the barrel makers. I haven't heard back from Damastlaufe yet.

As there are no nay-sayers to the shoe lump proposal. That's what I'm going with. Tomorrow, I'll disassemble the action and "blueprint" it. This should give rise to a great many more questions. I know it has "dogtooth" strikers (integral to the hammer) and the the hinge-pin does not go all the way from one side of the action to the other at least not while maintaining its full diameter. There is a pin there, on each side, but it is much smaller in diameter than that of the hinge pin. So, I'll have to see what that's all about. The pic below illustrates that.



One question no one has commented upon: do I need to be concerned about the metallurgy of the action? It was built in 1890 or 91. If there is a concern, can heat treating solve that? I hope the general rule of "The larger the calibre, the lower the pressure" applies here and I'll be OK.

I also notice most people who have made a .577 have used a 12b to start with. Even though I'm going with the .600, could it be possible that my action is actually too big to achieve a pleasing result. Nowhere have I read of anyone starting with a 10b. Is there such a thing as TOO beefy for a .600, or a .577 for that matter?

Thanks Again

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tarawa
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Reged: 21/10/07
Posts: 420
Loc: South Florida
Re: New Project - .577 or .600 [Re: Lionheart]
      #107013 - 08/06/08 09:52 PM

I hope this thread keeps going...very interesting and is stirring my desire to build a DR.

--------------------
Life is for Service

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Bramble
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Reged: 29/07/06
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Re: New Project - .577 or .600 [Re: Lionheart]
      #107016 - 08/06/08 11:44 PM

I just lost the whole damm reply !!!

Here goes again.

I think that 10b will do you a favour as it will force the barrel profile and give more mass between the hands. If anything you may have tribulations making this heavy enough for caliber.
Barrel makers can usually calculate the finished weight of barrels for any given profile.

Are you going to re-stock? as the straight hand may give you issues of control in .600 and bruised middle finger. it may also snap the stock across the hand

Metalergy.

The co. whos link you posted could proberbly advise you about x-ray or magnafluxing to be sure of the action for cracks. A good precaution.

It will be low carbon case hardened steel. Hardness can be tested.
I would stear clear of the co.s that offer bone and charcol colour hardening. most I have seen are less than scientific. OK for a 71 winchester with pistol cartridges, not so great with the ammount of energy involved here.
Again you have found a good company there as they also do hardening and can assist you with this I would imagine.

I would as I posted before regulate for the lighter standard loading.
Larger cal lower pressure may apply, but the thrust is the factor and thet is proportional to case head diamiter for any given pressure. I have an old listing for the 1850 fps load that rates it at 11 tons which is very low by NE averages for the smaller calibers.

I still think that you need to bush the firing pins. I would not make removable discs as it will not see that ammount of use. But simple bushes to reduce diamiter. You can then cut off the striker nose, drill in and braze a piece of A2 and reshape for correct protrusion

Regards.

And if this bloody thing crashes again you will have to phone me !!!

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Lionheart
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Reged: 21/08/07
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Re: New Project - .577 or .600 [Re: Bramble]
      #107081 - 09/06/08 04:14 PM

Thanks tarawa, I certainly intend to keep it going throughout the entire process as several others have done (including Bramble) in these fori. I travel a lot though, so it will necessarily be in fits and starts.

Bramble, I'm beginning to feel guilty about the time you are spending replying to my posts, especially in light of what happened with your last post. I can't adequately express to you how much I appreciate your input as it has literally gotten my project off the ground but I would feel badly if you now feel burdened by the responsibility of continuing to provide timely replies to all of my questions. I've seen the wisdom in your replies and have incorporated ALL of your advice into my plan, as it stands. So, if you're willing to continue, I can assure you your energies will not be for nought. You will have a bit of a respite soon as I'm leaving on a trip at the end of this week.

Having said all that I'm glad you agree with what I've been thinking all along, that is, that the action for these calibres pretty much can't be too heavy. It will always be easy to shave weight off the buttstock and at the muzzle but adding weight between the hands is problematic. This, in itself, is sufficient reason to go with a new lump as it will allow weight to be retained or even added to the chamber area of the barrel resulting, as I've said before, in a more proper rifle barrel coutour instead of inheriting the shotgun barrel coutour. Speaking of barrel contours, all of the barrel makers only offer standard contours suited for bolt-actioned rifles, with distinct steps in diameter and straight tapers. The classic double rifle barrels I've seen generally display more delicately eased diameter transitions and finely concave tapers, something of a hybrid between the standard rifle barrel and a shotgun barrel. In your experience, do the barrel makers understand this distinction and have you seen them supply such contours?

Is there a forum member out there out there who owns a classic, large bore dr who could supply this thread with some barrel diameters? The calibre wouldn't matter at long as it is "biggish". What I'm looking for would be the OD of the breech; the OD and distance from the breech at a point at the end of the chambre where the barrel begins to neck down; the OD and distance from the breech where this transition generally ends and the long taper begins; and then ODs, say, every 4" from this pont to the muzzle. I could then interpolate between these measurements and massage the numbers upward (unless, of course, it is a .600 being measured) to compensate for the differences in the the starting OD (the breech), the chamber length, the calibre, and the barrel length between the gun being measured and mine. Armed with these figures, I could make a full-scale barrel countour diagram, from which, instantaneous dimensions could be measured at any point along the barrel. Btw, my barrel diameters, at the breech, will be about 1 3/8". I would be interested to know what the breech ODs are of other .600s.

This may be a stretch: Is there a member out here who knows the Rockwell hardness of their action?

I hope not to tamper with the hardness if I can help it. Too hard would clearly be just as worrisome as too soft. I certainly don't intend to do any color case hardening as I prefer the coin metal finish with the engraving I have now. But I would like to check and compare the hardness nevertheless. I think I will X-ray or magnaflux as well.

Touching on your other points, Bramble, I will bush the strikers if the standing breech is thick enough. (I didn't disassemble and do my survey today as I had hoped but tomorrow for sure.) I'm assuming, for the moment, it is. Do you think I could add component strikers and do away with the dogtooth strikers altogether? I also will be restocking for all the reasons you suggest plus the existing L.O.P. is way too short for me.

Here is a nice link for anyone interested in fabricating a shoe lump in a manner similar to the one suggested by Bramble in a previous post. It shows a gunsmith cutting a trough wih a fly cutter colletted in a lathe. It's for a different application but the process would be similar.

flycutting a channel

Thanks, everyone, again.

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Bramble
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Re: New Project - .577 or .600 [Re: Lionheart]
      #107096 - 09/06/08 11:53 PM

Don't worry. I was complaining about the vaguries of the computer not you.

I would not make disc set inertia strikers. You could but for the limited number of rounds that this will fire in its lifetime, it is a heck of a lot of trouble.

Regards

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1980E26
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Re: New Project - .577 or .600 [Re: Bramble]
      #107754 - 20/06/08 01:24 PM

Lionheart,

Long live the .600NE!!!!!! Good choice.

Corbin

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empirevr
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Re: New Project - .577 or .600 [Re: 1980E26]
      #126279 - 08/02/09 08:51 PM

Hey I must re-open this thread!!!

So .600 ne can or cant be built on a shotgun action?!

Seems here it can.......

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Bramble
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Loc: England
Re: New Project - .577 or .600 [Re: empirevr]
      #126285 - 08/02/09 09:55 PM

My earlier reply from above From above.

"I think that 10b will do you a favour as it will force the barrel profile and give more mass between the hands. If anything you may have tribulations making this heavy enough for caliber.
Barrel makers can usually calculate the finished weight of barrels for any given profile."

"Have you considered the number of rounds that will need to be fired to regulate this? Maybe 100 plus over a few days because you have no starting point for reference. That is a bastard with a .600. Not great with a .577 either. That is not to discourage you but it would be a damm shame to do all the hard work and have it hospitalize you. There is a standard 1850 fps load and that is the one I would regulate for, rather than the 2050 load.
"

I think that it is in a nutshell. Theoretically, yes you can, but I think it will have to be ".600 light" How it would handle may be problomatic, but if you want a .600 for the fun of owning one then it is a relativly cheep way to get one. It will not be a Holland or a Rigby, but it could be fun within realistic expectations

Regards

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empirevr
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Reged: 03/09/06
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Loc: England,but now Italy.
Re: New Project - .577 or .600 [Re: Bramble]
      #126286 - 08/02/09 10:02 PM

Thankyou Bramble

Ok and what if one used a modern 8ga Spanish gun???

You the one....the Gunmark Kestrel. Dont see the old Greylags up for sale anymore.

Ben

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grandveneur
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Reged: 21/09/08
Posts: 1356
Loc: France / Germany
Re: New Project - .577 or .600 [Re: Lionheart]
      #126287 - 08/02/09 10:29 PM

I dont understand the interest for this old, non suitable for big game hunting, cartridge. A rifle in this caliber is a symbol of a old era and de facto a object of collection. For this reason we have to buy old ones or rifles of Houses with Tradition! That is right, the problem is the price. But dont forget the poor number of rifles and the lot of work and material for made one! That's the reason why, in my opinion, the use of a shotgun action is curious, and may be dangerous. I have a 577NE, no comparison with a shotgun. The action is very big and heavy. But to have one just for fun, why not! I try to buy a old 600NE and than we speak again. Regards.

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Birdhunter50
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Reged: 03/06/07
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Re: New Project - .577 or .600 [Re: Lionheart]
      #126463 - 10/02/09 01:56 AM

Lionheart,
You must be brave indeed to attempt such a project. I hope it works out well for you if you procede with it. Since I have no experience with modern damascus barrels, I won't say anything about them, but, I will give you just a couple of thoughts on items 1 and 3 in your questions area.
First, under the heading of the age and general strength of your action, it might be that this 10 gauge is up to the task of handling the 600 Nitro cartridge, but the main concern is the back thrust of tha cartridge heads against the standing breech, as has been mentioned by others already. In my opinion, and that's all it is, if I were going to go to all the trouble of converting this shotgun to ANY large caliber, I would do away with the dogtooth hammers altogether by cutting the noses off and put in the disc set strikers. Sure, it is more work, but in something of this magnitude, I feel it would be a mistake not to do it. You are doing this for yourself anyway, and most of what is required is some extra time and machine work. Buy Ellis' book and follow his instructions on re-doing the strikers, I don't think you will regret doing the extra work later.
Next, if you do decide to try and re-use the top rib, it may be found that it is difficult to remove it, or maybe not, because of the age of this gun. If it is, and you still want to reuse it, cut the barrels away from the mono block section first, then you can probably heat the left over barrels enough to remove the ribs. If that doesn't work, you will have to slice down the tops and bottoms of both barrels with a cutting tool to slice the excess barrels away form the ribs. I clamped a steel strap to the barrels and used a D.A grinder with a cutting wheel to do this part, the strap protects the top rib from the wheel getting into it. Then using a torch and two pairs of pliers or visegrips, you will be able to get the ribs loose from the remainder of the barrels. It is best to have someone hold the torch for you and then you can move the ribs under the flame and apply pressure with both hands simultaneously to get the ribs loose. Apply most of the pulling pressure against the barrel pieces, holding the rib still will doing this. Be extra careful not to get the ribs too hot. They are now much smaller in mass and the metal can be burnt easily if you are not careful. Concentrate the heat out on the edges towards the remaining barrel scraps.
My last thought on your project, and one that nobody has mentiond yet, is that your gun contains a Greener side safety. This may be a problem for you if you decide to restock it. This safety somewhat weakens the head of the stock in an area where it needs to be as strong as possible and, unless you are a well practiced gun stocker, it can be a bit of a problem to inlet into your new stock. If you do restock it, I would suggest a pistol grip type stock, you will have better sighting and recoil control with it. Good Luck on your project! Bob H.

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grandveneur
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Reged: 21/09/08
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Loc: France / Germany
Re: New Project - .577 or .600 [Re: grandveneur]
      #135937 - 22/05/09 04:43 PM

I try to buy a old 600NE and than we speak again. Regards.



I have one! What happened with your project?

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Longknife
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Reged: 17/04/08
Posts: 269
Loc: Illinois
Re: New Project - .577 or .600 [Re: grandveneur]
      #136585 - 02/06/09 11:50 PM

Grandveneur, Can you post pictures and descriptions?? There are not too many of those in existence....Ed

--------------------
Longknife

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grandveneur
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Reged: 21/09/08
Posts: 1356
Loc: France / Germany
Re: New Project - .577 or .600 [Re: Longknife]
      #136591 - 03/06/09 12:57 AM

Quote:

Grandveneur, Can you post pictures and descriptions?? There are not too many of those in existence....Ed



It is a Dumoulin rifle, a plain finish working gun, built in the Fifty's. I send pictures soon as possible!

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