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empirevr
.375 member

Reged: 03/09/06
Posts: 614
Loc: England,but now Italy.

Opinions? 600 nitro on a shotgun action........!
#126001 - 06/02/09 07:50 PM

Ok the net is dandy as one can make a fool of oneself without too much comeback...ahem.

So, here it is.......

.600 nitro rifles are EXPENSIVE full stop. But why has nobody built one on a shotgun action??? If you want one, or needed one or whatever.........is it impossible to make one?

I am thinking of various shotgun actions-what about a modern 10g action?? Ok, if not, what about a Merkel 12ga action? the Merkel 140a is built on the 20ga so surely the 12ga is super strong????

Any thoughts? the .600 has less pressure than the .500 anyway.

Thanks!

Ben

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450_366
.400 member

Reged: 17/01/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Sweden, west-coast.

Re: Opinions? 600 nitro on a shotgun action........! [Re: empirevr]
#126005 - 06/02/09 08:24 PM

I think the lack of weight scares the most ones of. A couple of .600 barrels on a 12 gauge with a decent profile and lenght would land around 5-5,5kg. But you are right someone should make the attemt, and perhaps someone did but he/she arent around to tell the tale.

With a new well fitted set of barrels on a merkel 12 gauge frame it should be able to take the force of the cartridge, now how many times you could fire it untill it came off face thats another question, but at that weight i think most one wouldnt go shooting it much. Damn this gets me thinking for sure, if it hasent been done before, perhaps one could be the first for once.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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Der_Jaeger
.375 member

Reged: 09/10/08
Posts: 607
Loc: SE Pennsylvania

Re: Opinions? 600 nitro on a shotgun action........! [Re: 450_366]
#126016 - 06/02/09 11:25 PM

It's definitely possible. The Merkel double rifles are built on their same 12 gauge frame with no differences. That same action is used by Rigby to make their big doubles. You will have no issues at all with the strength of the action. The concern is making sure the barrels are fitted flawlessly to that action. If the barrels are not fitted to perfection, no action made will withstand the punishment of the recoil for very long.

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grandveneur
.400 member

Reged: 21/09/08
Posts: 1299
Loc: France / Germany

Re: Opinions? 600 nitro on a shotgun action........! [Re: empirevr]
#126029 - 07/02/09 02:05 AM

Do you have experience with big doubles like 577NE or 600NE ?

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Der_Jaeger
.375 member

Reged: 09/10/08
Posts: 607
Loc: SE Pennsylvania

Re: Opinions? 600 nitro on a shotgun action........! [Re: grandveneur]
#126036 - 07/02/09 03:04 AM

Here's a link to John Rigby's website showing that he indeed builds the .577 on the standard Merkel action.

http://www.johnrigbyandco.com/html/4thCenturyBoxlockDoubleRifle.html

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mickey
.416 member

Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho

Re: Opinions? 600 nitro on a shotgun action........! [Re: Der_Jaeger]
#126045 - 07/02/09 04:16 AM

You would need to re heat treat it to harden the action. I believe that is what Merkel does when using their 20 Gauge action for rifles. I think you would want it to weigh in around 7 Kilos, minimum.

A lot of thrust there with the 600NE. Make sure to take pictures for your friends and family when firing.

How about a Cape Gun in 600NE and 10 Gauge?

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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grandveneur
.400 member

Reged: 21/09/08
Posts: 1299
Loc: France / Germany

Re: Opinions? 600 nitro on a shotgun action........! [Re: Der_Jaeger]
#126054 - 07/02/09 05:59 AM

Like Krieghoff ! But the actions are too small and the rifles not very nice when you compare with the old English Doubles!

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empirevr
.375 member

Reged: 03/09/06
Posts: 614
Loc: England,but now Italy.

Re: Opinions? 600 nitro on a shotgun action........! [Re: grandveneur]
#126115 - 07/02/09 05:39 PM

Well guys......

I was thinking of a 10g starter gun, weighing about 4kg/9lbs by itself, after the barrel work what would it weigh? I guess 6.5kg/14lbs no?

Would it be necessary to step up to 8ga?!! Now I see why nobody has done it........

I am only trying to find out if its possible or not.........seems nobody ever even asked the question!!

The Heym at 35000-40000$ is the cheapest double .600 it seems.

Ben

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500Nitro
.450 member

Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia

Re: Opinions? 600 nitro on a shotgun action........! [Re: empirevr]
#126118 - 07/02/09 06:30 PM

empirev

you always seem to be trying to do things on the cheap.

just remind me if i am ever going to buy any gun of yours
that you have had work done on.

Of course the question has been asked. If it was that good an idea, then it would have been done already.

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empirevr
.375 member

Reged: 03/09/06
Posts: 614
Loc: England,but now Italy.

Re: Opinions? 600 nitro on a shotgun action........! [Re: 500Nitro]
#126120 - 07/02/09 07:52 PM

Oh God its Nigel, hehe.

How are you? Hope all is well in Oz.....one of the few who arent suffering much from this infamous crisis.

I am afraid the point of the matter is.......its not so much on the cheap as it is being reasonable and fair.

Long ago a Greener 8-bore double rifle was how much? 8 pounds 10 shillings or so.......or was it less?

Point is, we now pay for the make,fame,collectability, and generally are cast out of the market due to wealthy chaps willing to pay any price at all.....the prices go up all the time.....in ten years recession or not maybe a .500 nitro by H&H will be 1,000,000 pounds.....where does one start to draw back and take a second look?;)

Ben

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500Nitro
.450 member

Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia

Re: Opinions? 600 nitro on a shotgun action........! [Re: empirevr]
#126123 - 07/02/09 08:11 PM

Mate, it wouldn't matter what the price was, you still wouldn't think it reasonable and fair.

I told you 2 - 3 years ago to buy something, they only get higher in price and then you can sell your H&H 500 for a squillion and then ask them to build you a 600 Nitro.

And re the infamous crisis, I didn't cause it but yes,
i'm doing OK thanks, planned ahead.

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empirevr
.375 member

Reged: 03/09/06
Posts: 614
Loc: England,but now Italy.

Re: Opinions? 600 nitro on a shotgun action........! [Re: 500Nitro]
#126124 - 07/02/09 08:59 PM

Nigel

I bought that .500 Rigby express mate!!!

I am merely asking questions that havent been asked/answered.......

A shotgun conversion has no nostalgia, and not much finesse perhaps, but as a tool, soley for whatever use you have in mind....ok.

Oz hasnt been so badly hit I hear......

My home has, and so has the US and Europe.

Ben

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500Nitro
.450 member

Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia

Re: Opinions? 600 nitro on a shotgun action........! [Re: empirevr]
#126125 - 07/02/09 09:07 PM

I might be located in Australia, but I deal all over the world
so I am not restricted to the economy of one country.

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Jeffeosso
.275 member

Reged: 11/01/03
Posts: 52
Loc: Porter, Texas

Re: Opinions? 600 nitro on a shotgun action........! [Re: 500Nitro]
#126156 - 08/02/09 01:32 AM

its not recoil, gents, its bolt thrust that will ruin this one.

Bolt thrust .. take the original proofing pressure and the surface area of the ORIGINALLY proofed case and multiply them.

then take the same measurements for the 600, and do the same

you are going to be firing OVER proof loads, every shot.

10 gauge MINIMUM starting action, and should weigh about 17LBs when done...

and you will still build the WORST PERFORMING of all the big NE rounds..

577 BPE is a great round fellas

--------------------
Why do Scots men wear kilts? Because it's far easier to run with your kilt up than your pants down

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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5504
Loc: United States

Re: Opinions? 600 nitro on a shotgun action........! [Re: Jeffeosso]
#126159 - 08/02/09 02:27 AM

Just my .02, but what would be wrong with the .577 Snider?

Not the .600 by any means of course.

Obviously other BP Expresses come to mind also, but empirevr, I think a .577 Snider sounds like more fun and definitely within the capabilities of the action type even if the shotgun action is not reheat treated, yes? And could be built light and handy and useful for Italian pigs, etc. I think you would get allot of "action" out of a light "Snider".

Unless a fellow actually has elephant in mind and that is the "thrust" of the thread.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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grandveneur
.400 member

Reged: 21/09/08
Posts: 1299
Loc: France / Germany

Re: Opinions? 600 nitro on a shotgun action........! [Re: Jeffeosso]
#126160 - 08/02/09 02:29 AM

I agree and i dont understand the interest for this cartridge that was never suitable for non-professional big game hunters ( and PH!). This cartidge is a symbol of a era and a rifle of this caliber a object of collection. To built a rifle on a shotgun action is, in my opinion, a curious idea. Better you try to built a 450/400NE or, may be, a 470NE? with reserve when you look at a old Rigby or Holland&Holland action. 600NE Doubles are very rare and for this reason very expensive. If i want a Bentley i dont try to built one on a 2 CV Citroen.

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empirevr
.375 member

Reged: 03/09/06
Posts: 614
Loc: England,but now Italy.

Re: Opinions? 600 nitro on a shotgun action........! [Re: grandveneur]
#126166 - 08/02/09 03:14 AM

Ahh chaps you miss the point......

I am asking for the sake of asking, to find out what can and cannot be accomplished.

I see others are making lots of wildcat cartridges these days, and yet dont make many custom nitro express guns.

I cant see myself ever having such a thing built, but I CERTAINLY wish to understand why nobody has tried.....

Are there any single shot actions it can be built upon? bolt guns?(rimmed issue again)

PS I have the Rigby for pigs......this is merely a 'why hasnt this been done yet' question!

Ben

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grandveneur
.400 member

Reged: 21/09/08
Posts: 1299
Loc: France / Germany

Re: Opinions? 600 nitro on a shotgun action........! [Re: empirevr]
#126167 - 08/02/09 03:37 AM

In my opinion cannot! I have a 577NE and there is no comparison with a shotgun 12ga.

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Der_Jaeger
.375 member

Reged: 09/10/08
Posts: 607
Loc: SE Pennsylvania

Re: Opinions? 600 nitro on a shotgun action........! [Re: grandveneur]
#126169 - 08/02/09 04:32 AM

Now, imagine a big Nitro Express built on a Ruger #1 action that was adapted as a double rifle. Two #1 actions, in essence, layed side by side. A single lever would drop both falling blocks.

You mechanical engineers here can try and figure it out....I'm just an idea guy!

--------------------

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Marrakai
.416 member

Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3496
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia

Re: Opinions? 600 nitro on a shotgun action........! [Re: Der_Jaeger]
#126232 - 08/02/09 12:12 PM

Oh, you mean like this? You're a hundred years too late!

As the guys have said, its all about back-thrust, not just pressure per se. Building a .600 full nitro double on a SxS shotgun action would run a high risk of either stretching the action or cracking the action-bar at the radius.

...and getting the weight up to the required minimum would result in a ponderously barrel-heavy pig of a rifle IMHO.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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Huvius
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Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3536
Loc: Colorado

Re: Opinions? 600 nitro on a shotgun action........! [Re: Marrakai]
#126238 - 08/02/09 12:35 PM

No reason to go full boat nitro load.
How about a 600NE short? Maybe a 2.25"?
900gr. bullet at about 1200fps.
I guess that would be about like a hopped up 20ga.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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Der_Jaeger
.375 member

Reged: 09/10/08
Posts: 607
Loc: SE Pennsylvania

Re: Opinions? 600 nitro on a shotgun action........! [Re: Marrakai]
#126242 - 08/02/09 12:49 PM

Quote:

Oh, you mean like this? You're a hundred years too late!

Unbelievable!!! I learn something every day

At least the idea was original to me!!

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empirevr
.375 member

Reged: 03/09/06
Posts: 614
Loc: England,but now Italy.

Re: Opinions? 600 nitro on a shotgun action........! [Re: Der_Jaeger]
#126271 - 08/02/09 07:50 PM

Tony didnt you borrow that of mick shepherd's website?

Wonder if that thing couldnt handle full nitro loads too!!!!!!!

How about a .600 nitro for black then????? it'd be a first! lets say top load 1500 fps with the 900gr?

Any single shots that can be used to make the .600 nitro then or???

AND for those out there reading this.........whats the cost of making ones own?(guide price)

Thanks

Ben

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peter
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Reged: 11/04/07
Posts: 1493
Loc: denmark

Re: Opinions? 600 nitro on a shotgun action........! [Re: empirevr]
#126275 - 08/02/09 08:20 PM

ben

then you are talking about a fully rifled 16 bore, they are out there so it is just a matter of going out and finding them.
i know another member is about to recive one in a heavy load configuration, and he aint shy about making a write up.

best regards

peter

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empirevr
.375 member

Reged: 03/09/06
Posts: 614
Loc: England,but now Italy.

Re: Opinions? 600 nitro on a shotgun action........! [Re: peter]
#126276 - 08/02/09 08:29 PM

Hello Peter my friend how are you?

I thought it was closer to 20 bore???

Basically it would outdo the .577 by a bit. But use modern bullets from the .600 cals.

Ben

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