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another thing unrelated what is everyones obession with the lott its not all that great in my opinon everyone loads them down to 458 winn velocities only advantage is shoot a 550 grainer

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What???

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Aint no whats about it what i said explains it all

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Uh huh.

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But, then for a 505 Gibbs it is CZ or nobody.

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As i said before you get exactly what you pay for and he did he got a rifle cz makes no claims it will fuction flawless at all and you cannot walk into a police station to report that no crime has been commited it is a civil matter and the time and court cost and lawyer fee will cost more then the price paid for both rifles

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Apples to oranges my friend everyone thinks their a lawyer until the courts tell you the same thing I did

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Since the rifle was manufactured in the Czech Republic, presumably it underwent proof testing and was certified safe to shoot with standard ammunition.

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I dont recall ever saying you have to pay huge ammounts of money just to have a working rifle i choose to pay the high ticket prices to ensure i get the best peices made for the rifle

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The Strikes are against you thinking you could get a decent 505 for 3k when a decent 505 from heym will run you close to 11,000 cz is well known are crap guns

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but all i can say is bigbores are a rich mans game

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you get what you pay for a 10 dollar saddle the 505 gibbs, on a 2 dollar horse the cz

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as I have said its my opinion and you get what you pay for a 10 dollar saddle the 505 gibbs on a 2 dollar horse the cz like i have stated i havent even held one so i can only go by what my rifle builders tell me and by all the problems stated I wouldnt even bother giveing one a glance but if thats what you have or can afford all the power to you

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and as i have state these are my belifs and I still think its not illegal to be entitled to those
but you might want to ease up on the quoteing what i say as you look like you have some sort of envy towards me dont be upset I made the right decsions in life

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What??????

Dear Mr. Thor, son of Odin, Protector of Midgard,

I'm not sure how you were raised in your Kingdom in Thrudheim, but the humans here on Middle Earth respect other people's opinions and try not to ram our own opinions down the throats of others.

Additionally, if you cannot be quoted in what you say, then what you say cannot be respected. Peter was just highlighting what you, yourself, stated. Is that uncomfortable? Your comments are not constructive in any way and only serve to be antagonistic. If you have an opinion and can state it respectfully, then state it. Don't condemn other members for having the same based on other real experiences.

That's bad behavior for a Norse God.

Have you heard the saying, "he who loves himself above all others will have no competition"? It's not Nordic.

Also, there's a grammatical symbol we use here: (.) We call it a period. It's a punctuation mark used at the end of declarative sentences thought to be a complete. Give it a try.

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Edited by Der_Jaeger (05/02/09 11:56 PM)

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and as i have state these are my belifs and I still think its not illegal to be entitled to those
but you might want to ease up on the quoteing what i say as you look like you have some sort of envy towards me dont be upset I made the right decsions in life

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but for some reason the 458 ends up push feeding some of the time. At a 1000 bucks, I might try and modify the magazine. I tell you I am real turned off by the whole CZ quality situation right now.

I read on this forum some suggest a CZ might be ok for safari if gone threw by a gunsmith.

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Thanks for posting your experiences.

I had similar experiences with my 550FS and I posted the entire saga, an edda, really, long enough it would take the entire trip from roskildefjord to vinland fighting a headwind to tell!

I tried to get others to post their experiences with CONTROL ROUND feeding issues and CZ's but got little response. Your experience here indicates what I have suspected; actions are made in a very few configurations and more or less barrels are just twisted on and the guns shipped with little or no actual smithing of the rifle to insure proper function. For myself, I spent many hours figuring out the problems and doing the work myself. If I had sent the gun to a gunsmith I am certain it would have added a tremendous amount to the cost and multiple ships to-boot. Why? Because the gun WAS sent to the CZ custom shop to be rebarreled, was supposedly tested for feeding with the new cartridge and when I received it it would not feed PERIOD in spite of the cries and lamentations of the gunsmith on the telephone. The reason was because the box magazine and follower were improper to the new cartridge. Wouldn't feed properly before the change, and wouldn't feed after. This I know because CZ was gracious enough to send me the parts and tell me "of course the gun won't feed without these parts". Regardless, it wouldn't feed properly with the parts they originally fitted the gun with in the original caliber before it was rebarreled! A mess from stem to stern.

Now it is 100%, but only after MUCH work on my part.

And my lesson was learned on a cheap production FS rifle. There is no way I would place a single red cent on a CZ for any "expensive" model. Seems like there are some that have posted good experiences here, but I prefer penny ante poker in my living room to the craps table in Vegas.

Of course, XAUSA is correct. Good heavens, guys, anybody that has experience selling guns in America can tell you they have seen many that won't perform as implied or advertised. I personally have seen auto pistols that won't feed a round, barrels that unscrewed off revolvers, parts that literally fell off the gun when the action was cycled, etc. Don't tell me this fellow has a "case". Besides, you would spend more than the gun's value getting some attorney to understand why a gun needs to "feed" when it doesn't eat much more getting him to meet CZ in court. That direction leads to a black hole IMO. Good luck.

IMO, and this is just my opinion, bigboar is in a pickle. If he were me, I would send the guns back. I figured out my problems and knew enough about the fixes needed and was willing to spend the time upon time to get the thing right...including going to a new caliber and now am very happy, not at CZ but at me for doing the work. It became a hobby of its own, really, and didn't "cost" me anything but time. In the case of bigboar, there he has virtually TWO new rifles to be built and tho some might not see his thousands as much, I do. I had no guarantees my rifle would work in the end but at $700 I was willing to roll the dice. I would NOT be willing to roll his dice as so much monkeying was needed on mine there was not way they would have taken the gun back in the end had I been unsuccessful.

Ever heard of..."you voided your warranty...?

Chin-up bigboar and please post your results!

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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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rod

the custom shop lies in america and have nothing to do as such with CZ operations, the reason i know is, i had a rather extensive visit at the factory, a few years ago, where the topic came up.

the guns leaves cz factory in europe as parts except barrels and other small stuff, get exported to US and being made as the big guns there.
what im saying is that the custom shop work is US work, so it shouldent be hard to get fixed in the us.

CZ-usa is a company all for itself and has supply strings to europe but a lot of assambly and fitting is done in the us.

i dont think it matters for the small stuff, 9,3 cal. and below, as i think it is the same guns but the big stuff is only in america.

best regards

peter

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As a former federal prosecutor, I can assure that BATF would not know what to do with a .505 Gibbs if once came up and bit it on the arse. We had enough trouble getting agents not to write reports mentioning ".9 mm" pistols and .410 "gauge" shotguns, which they then expected us to present to a Grand Jury.

I'm afraid you would not get far alleging fraud in a case where a firearm failed to feed a cartridge correctly. Since the rifle was manufactured in the Czech Republic, presumably it underwent proof testing and was certified safe to shoot with standard ammunition. That should be enough to mount a successful defense against a charge of negligence, let alone fraud, which is an offence involving criminal intent. Case dismissed!

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I new a man who worked a Remington in the mid-late 90's and he said they did the same thing, just crank them out.

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ZKK602, which is presently being converted to .500 Jeffery. I am anxious to see how that conversion feeds.

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I'm afraid you would not get far alleging fraud in a case where a firearm failed to feed a cartridge correctly. Since the rifle was manufactured in the Czech Republic, presumably it underwent proof testing and was certified safe to shoot with standard ammunition. That should be enough to mount a successful defense against a charge of negligence, let alone fraud, which is an offence involving criminal intent. Case dismissed!

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Ed plummers operation of fixing czs from what ive herd from friends and other smiths is top notch and worth every penny but also may want him to add a cross bolt or 2 being is cz tend to split their stocks and I think the rule is as anything over 338 cross bolt is a must

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The inletting was obviously completed by someone with a chain saw and the entire piece is generally crude.

I forgot to mention I am dead certain a banana was used as a template for the fore stock profiling...

the action is basically very strong and with some de-horning and smoothing would be great.

As I mentioned in my thread on my 6.5x55-to-9.3x62 project, on top of all my feed work I did, my bolt stuck in the back position after a time and had to be sort-of jiggled to go forward. Locking lugs were not beveled properly so I introduced them to Mr Dremel and after a while I got that sorted out. The mechanical mayhem I put up with to get it where it is today is frightful, but the gun is now dead reliable, truly controlled feed and working the action nearly feels like a Krag. I really like it. Had I not been inclined to work on it, the thing would have cost a lot of money to get right or would have been better served as a tomato stake. No gun of whatever price should have ever left the factory like mine did.

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Just imagine the fun some guys are going to have trying to get the new 425 wr to feed from cz

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Neither gun came with a test target. I just double check my file folder to be sure. This is very odd indeed. You have a target with your 416.

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Neither gun came with a test target. I just double check my file folder to be sure. This is very odd indeed. You have a target with your 416.

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I do indeed have a test target that came with my 416. It's entirely in Czech, of course, but it's clear what information it was intended to convey. It was shot at 100 meters, is stamped with the rifle's chambering, has my rifle's serial no. written in the appropriate field, and it's signed and stamped by an inspector.

This is very odd. That a manufacturer would lower its QC standards for its most expensive models, below what it maintains for its lower end products. It isn't that CZ doesn't know how to build a rifle or maintain a certain quality level. It's just a matter of consistently doing what the company has demonstrated it already knows how to do.

Of course, it wouldn't be the first time a manufacturer let quality slip. The same thing happened at S&W, Colt, and Winchester. Poor QC is one of the stated reasons USRAC quit manufacturing rifles in New Haven.

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They do build 416 in their own magnum range at cz so its not that strange, but i think peter is right about the big ones.

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Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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I am also amazed at the funny recoil lug that they used?

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Regardless, give yourself lots of time to MAKE sure the gun works before buying a special rifle for an expensive hunt.

. . . Don't buy one of these guns and have your heart set on zeroing it in and heading for Africa in a week.

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They do build 416 in their own magnum range at cz so its not that strange, but i think peter is right about the big ones.

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And this wouldn't go for any rifle, why?

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All guns have warts, but to give a specific example, my Rugers have had far fewer warts than my two CZ's, and from what I have read and from what I have seen from handling others, CZ's seem to have allot of warts.

They can be cleaned up, but require allot more "Compound W" than my Rugers, SAKO, Remingtons, Savage, Mausers, Marlins, Winchesters, etc...

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I can't honestly understand why anyone would think they should just buy a rifle, sight it in, then take it on an expensive hunt, particularly for dangerous game.

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I guess because it has been done this way for about 100yrs.
Not defending this, just an observation.
I doubt much of the world's aristocracy took the time to run 200 rounds through their rifle prior to going out after tiger, lion, buffalo or elephant.
Of course they had the luxury of buying the best, which the CZ is obviously not. Not a dig at CZ, they are building to a price and handwork costs $$$. Probably not many out there willing to part with $10K for a CZ IMO when you can pick up a Mag Mauser for that.
Speaking of the newer Mausers, anybody here have one in 500Jeff. or 404? Any issues?

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Respectfully. I think we should get away from the ides that all of these rifles that we treasure now were owned at some time by the aristocracy or the landed gentry.

Many, if not most of them, were owned by army officers, civil servants, farmers, Ph's ect.
Their salaries were comensurate with people of similar status now. Most were just working grade guns. They were relativly expensive, but people generaly owned only one or two guns. The tales of PH's of the time owning cabinets full are I believe eronious. If you read Taylor sometime , add up the value of the guns he "owned" it comes in modern money to millions of pounds worth.

If you bought a gun from a decent maker you should be able to take it out of the case and just go hunt, personally I believe that it should still be like that. It should have been sighted in by the maker prior to giving it to you. The reason was fairly simple, people then in the majority knew damm all about guns, same as now realy, except they saw no shame in letting their gunmaker do the technical part for them. There was no handloading and they let the maker choose the cartridges for them based on where in the world they were going to use the product. For all that they killed a hell of a lot of game. They treated these guns as the tools that they are.
Now it is different, they are objects of desire and recreational items in the majority. People want to tinker with them, make them shoot bullets and loads that they were never designed for etc.etc.

It is now a sin for a gunmaker to actually shoot the product prior to dispach. I had a new Marlin traded to me. BNIB, I ran a mag full through it for function. When I went to trade it out I could only sell it as used. I have been told that if you turn the cylinder on a colectable SAA you can half its value

So the question is really, do people want a "New" gun or one that works. A novelty item, or a tool all be it a beautiful one, they cant realy have it both ways. No maker can supply a bolt never turned BNIB gun and guarentee that it will work.

Regards

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Those new mausers are just glorified by their names not even owned by mauser anymore they are owned by the same company that owns blaser

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I can't honestly understand why anyone would think they should just buy a rifle, sight it in, then take it on an expensive hunt, particularly for dangerous game.

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I guess because it has been done this way for about 100yrs.
Not defending this, just an observation.

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That's the legend. Once you start looking at the past without rose colored glasses, you'll find the reality of the situation to be quite different.

CZs wouldn't be the first mass produced, affordable rifle intended for Africa that doesn't function as the buyer would hope 100% of the time. Other British, American, and European makers pioneered the concept long before the internet was invented.

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If you bought a gun from a decent maker you should be able to take it out of the case and just go hunt, personally I believe that it should still be like that. It should have been sighted in by the maker prior to giving it to you.
...So the question is really, do people want a "New" gun or one that works. A novelty item, or a tool all be it a beautiful one, they cant realy have it both ways. No maker can supply a bolt never turned BNIB gun and guarentee that it will work.

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If you bought a gun from a decent maker you should be able to take it out of the case and just go hunt, personally I believe that it should still be like that. It should have been sighted in by the maker prior to giving it to you.
...So the question is really, do people want a "New" gun or one that works. A novelty item, or a tool all be it a beautiful one, they cant realy have it both ways. No maker can supply a bolt never turned BNIB gun and guarentee that it will work.

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I mostly agree with this with the exception of the notion that a cycled action is no longer "new".
IMO, cycling and test firing is all part of the pre-sale preparation of any gun. Would the London proof house pass the 505 discussed here? NO WAY!
Would you accept a new double rifle which is off face or needs to be smoked and fit simply because it is not "cost effective" for the maker to do the hand work?
Of course not.
BTW, many of us have comparatively high dollar guns, but $2000 or so for a CZ is still not cheap - especially when you consider further work needed to bring it up to scratch.
$2K should get you an "out of the box" gun ready to go anywhere IMO.

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I absolutly agree with you. I think that the notion of BNIB is silly, but I understand, that it is what "collectors" expect.
What I was attempting to do was to point out the dicotomy of the situation.

And I also agree with you that I would never send out a gun in that condition, nor would I accept one. As I said in my first post 4 pages ago, I would be banging on the dealers desk by now.

Yes $2000.00 is not cheep, but it is IMHO not enough money to make a bitch of a cartridge like a .505 chamber well, it needs to be hand fitted not a mass produced item. So in that respect it may be too cheep for what is an exotic item. I have never heard anything but praise for CZ's rimfire range for example, it seems just to be that because of the market demand they have overreached in the cost-v-quality equation.
It seems to be prevelent with guns, one just has to look at all the discussion when Winchester closed, to expect manufacturers to produce hand fitted and finished guns for a few hundred dollers (or pounds) when at the same time 1 hours labour at a service department of a factory car costs $ 100 perhaps (here it is £120.00 per hour). It just cannot be done and stay in business.

Regards

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at the same time 1 hours labour at a service department of a factory car costs $ 100 perhaps (here it is £120.00 per hour). It just cannot be done and stay in business.

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Sorry to rain on your parade guys but I just wanted to mention the safety aspect.

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I have asked a few people about this and haven't had an aswer yet ? Maybe they had both been out
of whack to start with.

any ideas, best, Mike

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That's not unusual at all and, in fact, is quite common. It's all about relative head position on the stock in relation to the scope and reticle, and how you pull the trigger. Since no two people are built exactly alike or pull the rigger in exactly the same way, the rifle will typically shoot differently for each individual. If you are relatively tall and the PH you borrowed the rifle from was short, the difference is that much more pronounced.

This is quite an interesting thread!! I wonder if any of the folks from CZ USA have peeked in?

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Bramble, I don't think you mean you can expect a rifle sighted in by someone else (single barrel rifle) to be accurate for a different person do you ?
any ideas, best, Mike

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OK, I was being a little naughty.

With open sights/aperture it is extremely likely that a gun will shoot as near POI for the vast majority of different people as to make no difference at hunting ranges.
Yes as has been pointed out above, hold will make a difference to some extent as will gross differences in eyesight.

Scopes can be more problematic for some. Scopes effectively have a short sighting plane. ie the distance between the rear lens and the reticule. This magnifies errors in. Head position, eyesight, and hold. It is a bit like trying to shoot tiny groups with a handgun like the ones it can shoot from a machine rest. It is not a problem with the accuracy of a fine revolver but the short sighting plane. Where you eyes occular centre is can make a heap of difference as can astigmatism etc.

Also there is a bit of psychology involved. If you never shot your rifle on paper and every time you took a shot at an animal it fell over you would never question if it was shooting 2 or 3 inches off. That was exactly what people did. Now we are much more critical about our shooting but hunt less. It is like shotguns, how many people ever pattern them or have one fitted. Most people are happy with theirs, it goes bang and things drop out of the sky. I bet a fiver that 90% don't shoot to POA for their owners.

The difference you experienced in Africa is I believe at the extreme end of what can be anticipated so gives lie to my theory. In that case I think it is hold and recoil reaction/barrel lift. That the 375 had twice the error of a 25-06 is I believe the clue here.

Regards

Edited by Bramble (10/02/09 10:26 AM)

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farshot got me thinking and I made up a spacer and slid it down the front of the magazine.

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I noticed if I cycle the bolt back hard it would stick or bind up. I spent a few minutes working the bolt and its getting a lot smoother. This gun will hold 5 rounds in the magazine and still push feed one in the chamber, for 6 shots. For $999.99 I think this one is a keeper.

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If you look at any mauser action the lips are "waisted" to some degree or other dependingon the usage and the shell size.

Correct. The relationship of rails to extractor to case length and head size must all be correct to provide 100% reliable control round feed.

BTW - the only special marking on my BRNOs or CZ that I have seen is on the follower in my BRNO 602 9.3 x 64 where the follower is stamped "9.3x64" The mag boxes appear to be the same. However there may be differences in the newest rifles.

As I mentioned before, the mag boxes on some calibers are stamped on the front left side. If he hasn't already, bigboar should pull the mag box out and check it. It might be stamped with the caliber, might not be. If it is not, measurements can be made of it and a call placed to CZ. They should be able to confirm it is correct or not. I have generally found them helpful on the phone, and if you find you have the wrong mag box I bet they'll send you the right one free of charge.

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