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empirevr
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Merkel versus Krieghoff versus Blaser
      #125754 - 03/02/09 08:05 PM

I see those Merkels are going cheap...

Of these two, and I guess the Blaser too, which is best made? Strength, robustness, longevity....

They have different third bites....one the Greener cross bolt the other the hidden bite by Purdey.

Blaser any good is it?

Thanks

Edited by empirevr (04/02/09 07:22 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: Merkel versus Krieghoff [Re: empirevr]
      #125755 - 03/02/09 10:36 PM

blaser is only for aliens

no-no

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Der_Jaeger
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Re: Merkel versus Krieghoff [Re: lancaster]
      #125756 - 03/02/09 10:43 PM


You won't have any mechanical issues with either the Krieghoff or the Merkel. It's all a matter of feel. Handle them both and make a determination. The main mechanical difference between the two is the tang mounted cocking lever on the Krieghoff. Me, I'm a Merkel man for many reasons, but I like the feel of the Krieghoff better. I've shot the Krieghoff .500 in Vintage Cup events and shoot the rifle very well. If I got a Merkel, I'd have it altered slightly to fit me better. I can buy a Merkel, have it altered, and still have money left over that would've gone to the Krieghoff.

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empirevr
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Re: Merkel versus Krieghoff [Re: Der_Jaeger]
      #125824 - 04/02/09 07:19 PM

Right thanks

Question is, which action is strongest? which gun is built toughest?-any of you had the Merkel, Krieghoff, Blaser etc come off-face? any other serious constructional issues??? Given that its all German steel, probably same type, which barrels are thickest?

Can anyone tell me what their guns are proofed to?? Something makers keep off the websites!!!

I have NO WAY of handling any of these where I am by the way.

I know the Blaser is supposed to look odd but I took a good look on the site and web and it doesnt look so so odd to me! Merkel gets my vote for looks......but looks arent everything!;)

Thanks for the input-this isnt just for me, I noticed no such info is available anywhere else!

Ben


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Merkel versus Krieghoff [Re: empirevr]
      #125831 - 04/02/09 10:59 PM

empirevr,

What caliber are you considering?

Of the three rifles mentioned, I would rank them:

(1) Merkel - first choice for me.
(2) Krieghoff - but not even close. Too non-traditional.
(3) Blaser. I would not consider owning one.

I would rather shoot my Tupperware stocked, stainless steel M70 .300WSM with its 2.5-10 Leupold than a Blaser. In other words, if Blaser were the only choice, I'd stick to bolt guns.

Among the double rifles I own is a Merkel .500NE which I bought new as soon as I learned Merkel was chambering that round. It's serial No. 3 of the .500NE series. I have shot it hundreds of times until I lost count. I was determined to make it fail, if it would, during the one year warranty. I thought for sure the stock would crack, at least. Guess what? Nothing. Action off face? Hell it's just now getting to where it closes smoothly without having to push the lever to the left. Cracked stock? Not a sign. The wood is as hard as any I have seen. Accurate? You bet. Looks? It's not a Woodward, Purdey, Henry, or H&H, but it does have the lines and build of a traditional A&D boxlock. Can't say that for the Blaser or K gun.

Do I like it? Hell yes! Do I compare it to a Woodward, Purdey, Henry, or H&H? Certainly not. It cost under ten grand brand new. Not a fair comparison. But some days I like hamburger, and some days I like filet mignon.

Three years ago I took it deer hunting one very cold morning. The thermometer said about +2 F. There were a few inches of light powdered snow. It was about 5:30 a.m. and dark as pitch. While walking to the hunting area through rough, rocky woods I put my foot on a slick log that was hidden under the snow and frozen to the ground. In an instant my foot slid out from under me, and I fell to the ground. The Merkel went down hard on a rock. The fall left a slight scratch on the left barrel, but the stock made no contact. I got up, brushed off the snow, and went on hunting. Under the circumstances nothing I could have done would have prevented that fall, so I accepted the blemish to the Merkel and have no regrets. I can't say I would feel so blithe if it had been a Woodward, Purdey, Henry, or H&H.

If I ever go to Africa for DG or to Oz for Asian water buff the Merkel will go along while the others stay home.

Now the Merkel is built with ejectors and still can be had for under ten grand. What a deal!

One last thing. I don't own stock or have any relationship with any gun maker. I have no axe to grind like the gun rag writers. I'm just me, and double rifles are my passion. If it were a POS I would say so without hesitation.

Just my $0.02, and maybe worth nothing. Others disagree, and I respect their opinions. Obviously my preferences are my opinions, but my shooting experience with the Merkel is fact. I have never fired a Blaser or a Kreighoff.

You should also consider the Chapuis. They seem to be pretty darn good guns. But in the end, for the money, you can't beat the Merkel.

Back to the first question - what caliber? The dinosaur slayers aren't for everybody. They certainly aren't a good choice for a first DR, unless you are a person who likes to go out banging away with a .458 Win Mag just for kicks. All the talk is for the big DG double rifles, but nine times out of ten the medium calibers are much more useful and fun.

Another question - do you load your own ammo? If not, you will find any DR to be a frustrating experience.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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empirevr
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Re: Merkel versus Krieghoff [Re: CptCurl]
      #125833 - 04/02/09 11:39 PM

Thankyou!

500 ne of course.

-ok then, suppose you are reloading, and you accidently or intentionally work up a hotter-than-usual load.....this is possible, correct???-my main point is, how strong are these guns? are they proofed with very strong loads or what?.....its not a Birmingham proof after all.

Ben


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Der_Jaeger
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Re: Merkel versus Krieghoff [Re: empirevr]
      #125834 - 04/02/09 11:43 PM

Quote:

Thankyou!

.....its not a Birmingham proof after all.

Ben




Of course not....it's better! The Germans do have an obsession with strength.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Merkel versus Krieghoff [Re: empirevr]
      #125836 - 05/02/09 12:52 AM

Quote:


-ok then, suppose you are reloading, and you accidently or intentionally work up a hotter-than-usual load.....this is possible, correct???-my main point is, how strong are these guns? are they proofed with very strong loads or what?.....its not a Birmingham proof after all.





Wouldn't worry about that too much. When reloading reasonable care should be taken. Get hold of a chronograph when working out loads and stick to the appropriate velocity ranges for the bullet weight and calibre.

When you have an appropriate load which is reasonably accurate and regulates, you stick to it.

Unlike bolt actions in a big double rifle you are likely to have only a single bullet weight (or two bullet weights) and a FMJ and SPRN in that weight. Once you have worked it out, it won't change often.

Of course some like to play around a lot.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Merkel versus Krieghoff [Re: NitroX]
      #125841 - 05/02/09 02:30 AM

It's a cardinal rule of double rifles - you don't horse around with loads. You might push the envelope with a bolt gun. You do not do that with a double rifle. The design of a bolt gun is inherently more strong than any double rifle, no matter what steel is used.

I am confident you can shoot many thousands of rounds of .500NE ammo at standard pressure through my Merkel without it coming off face. You will probably instill more wear to the action by opening and closing it than by shooting it using proper ammo and proper lubricant on the hinge.

And then, many years out, if and when it does get loose, it's a relatively minor repair to have the rifle rejointed.

If you want a .500NE just buy the Merkel and have no fear. There are some really attractive deals out there right now. Do you want to have ejectors? If that doesn't matter to you, you can really find a bargain on a brand new extractor model (unless they have all sold since I last checked).

Check this out:

http://www.gunsinternational.com/detail.cfm?id=100059525&string=cid=106
Extractor model.

Or this:

http://www.gunsinternational.com/detail.cfm?id=100068314&string=cid=106
Ejector model.

Good luck.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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peter
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Re: Merkel versus Krieghoff [Re: empirevr]
      #125842 - 05/02/09 02:39 AM

Quote:

Thankyou!

500 ne of course.

-ok then, suppose you are reloading, and you accidently or intentionally work up a hotter-than-usual load.....this is possible, correct???-my main point is, how strong are these guns? are they proofed with very strong loads or what?.....its not a Birmingham proof after all.

Ben




ben all the guns you mention are under cip rules, which is the just as good as english proff law

for your enjoyment:

700 H&H 2750 bar
600 NE 2450 bar
577 NE 2450 bar
500 NE 2800 bar
470 NE 2700 bar
450/400 NE 3" 2800 bar
450/400 NE 3,25" 2950 bar

best regards

peter


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empirevr
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Re: Merkel versus Krieghoff [Re: peter]
      #126003 - 06/02/09 07:53 PM

Thankyou Peter John Curl AND Jerry

I think the Merkel is the one to go for......one site in the US is offering it for $5200 or so.....not sure why. Not in .500 though only .470.

Please see my question on shotgun to rifle conversion guys as I would love some opinions......

Ben


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doubleriflenut
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Re: Merkel versus Krieghoff [Re: empirevr]
      #126064 - 07/02/09 07:56 AM

The only problem I would have with the most popular two rifles is the weight. 10 1/2 pounds is very light for a 500. I am not recoil shy but there is a limit. Just my opinion. My Westley 476 weighed around 11 pounds and was a pleasure to shoot. I could say the same for my 470 Rigby with 28" barrels. On the other hand the 465 Holland I had weighed about 10 pounds 4 ounces and was very uncomfortable to shoot. It slapped very hard, not unlike a Weatherby.

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empirevr
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Re: Merkel versus Krieghoff [Re: doubleriflenut]
      #126121 - 07/02/09 07:54 PM

Thanks for the info chaps.

Hey doubleriflenut-how much did you pay/sell your Westley for?

Thanks

Ben


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grandveneur
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Re: Merkel versus Krieghoff [Re: lancaster]
      #126127 - 07/02/09 09:17 PM

Absolutely right!

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grandveneur
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Re: Merkel versus Krieghoff [Re: lancaster]
      #126129 - 07/02/09 09:20 PM

Quote:

blaser is only for aliens

no-no




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Ripp
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Re: Merkel versus Krieghoff [Re: doubleriflenut]
      #126211 - 08/02/09 08:15 AM

Quote:

The only problem I would have with the most popular two rifles is the weight. 10 1/2 pounds is very light for a 500. I am not recoil shy but there is a limit. Just my opinion. My Westley 476 weighed around 11 pounds and was a pleasure to shoot. I could say the same for my 470 Rigby with 28" barrels. On the other hand the 465 Holland I had weighed about 10 pounds 4 ounces and was very uncomfortable to shoot. It slapped very hard, not unlike a Weatherby.





That is exactely my thoughts and findings as well..shoot and have shot quite a bit- up to and including .577's-- Have NEVER been slapped as hard as I did when I owned the .470 Merkel...traded for a Westley --same caliber..absolute joy to shoot..

While I know everyone is different in how we shoot and stock design plays a part as well, the weight is something to consider...you can put in a mercury tube or 2 of you wish..know 2 that have and said it works very well...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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SharpsNitro
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Re: Merkel versus Krieghoff [Re: empirevr]
      #126262 - 08/02/09 05:14 PM

I just took delivery of a Krieghoff in 500 NE. I would give it my vote for strength; it has at least twice the width at the lugs than a traditional gun. I'm not sure how you would get it "off face" without trashing the whole gun. That said, the cocking system is a love or hate thing, I have no problem with it so all is good.

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empirevr
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Re: Merkel versus Krieghoff [Re: SharpsNitro]
      #126272 - 08/02/09 07:55 PM

Thanks guys

There is a big difference in price between the Krieghoff and the Merkel.

One site has the Merkel at $5500 or something silly, which is about 4,400 euros!!!!!!!!!!

The Krieghoff is always around $9000 or above.

Which gun is heavier?

That Blaser thing is 11.5 lbs in .500.......

The Chapuis is dear.....

Ben


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Ripp
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Re: Merkel versus Krieghoff [Re: empirevr]
      #126303 - 09/02/09 01:59 AM

Quote:

Thanks guys

There is a big difference in price between the Krieghoff and the Merkel.

One site has the Merkel at $5500 or something silly, which is about 4,400 euros!!!!!!!!!!

The Krieghoff is always around $9000 or above.

Which gun is heavier?

That Blaser thing is 11.5 lbs in .500.......

The Chapuis is dear.....

Ben





This is personal, but I would NOT get a Blaser...


As to weight, the Merkel and Krieghoff are very similar in my experience..remember stock design does also come into play as to felt recoil..as well as recoil pad..the Merkel I had did not have one at all...Again, I think the Merkel is a very well built weapon, just didn't work for me..have never had the opportunity to fire a Krieghoff, only handle them at SCI or in other gun shops, so can not advise as to one or the other..but Sharpsnitro seems to like his..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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empirevr
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Re: Merkel versus Krieghoff [Re: Ripp]
      #126427 - 09/02/09 08:06 PM

Thanks

And what weight is that? every site differs!!!

Are they both 11 lbs each or???

I am 6' and have longish arms, what would the stock fit me like do you think?

Ben


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Ripp
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Re: Merkel versus Krieghoff [Re: empirevr]
      #126458 - 10/02/09 01:28 AM

Quote:

Thanks

And what weight is that? every site differs!!!

Are they both 11 lbs each or???

I am 6' and have longish arms, what would the stock fit me like do you think?

Ben





I personally feel the fit will be short for you and you will need to add a spacer and pad or at the very least a pad...I am 5'10 and have longish arms as well..it felt short for me which was part of hte problem..

As to weight, my experience has been they are in the 10 to 10 1/2 lb range--the ones that are showing 11 or more probably have mercury tubes in them, as least when it come to Merkels...

Ripp

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ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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empirevr
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Re: Merkel versus Krieghoff [Re: Ripp]
      #126558 - 10/02/09 06:06 PM

Hmmm

Thanks Ripp

need to add a pad anyway for the kick I fear!

Ben


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DUGABOY1
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Re: Merkel versus Krieghoff [Re: SharpsNitro]
      #126623 - 11/02/09 06:46 AM

Quote:

I just took delivery of a Krieghoff in 500 NE. I would give it my vote for strength; it has at least twice the width at the lugs than a traditional gun. I'm not sure how you would get it "off face" without trashing the whole gun. That said, the cocking system is a love or hate thing, I have no problem with it so all is good.




SHARPSNITRO I think you are mistaken in your opinion of what makes a double rifle strong as far as coming off face by shooting! When a double rifle comes off face because of a hot load it is not the lugs that bend but the action BAR! In the case you site, the bar is actually made weaker by the removal of steel in the bar to accomidate the extra wide lugs! The idea that the rifle is stronger because the lug is wider is camouflage hideing the real problem. The lugs in that rifle are wider so they are easier to machine fit, not to improve strength.

A full 99% of all double rifles that come off face are not that way because of pressure, but because of poor care of the mateing surfaces.

Still all three of the rifles mentioned here are as strong as they need to be for the properly loaded cartridges they are chambered for,so that is not a worry no matter which you choose. Actually the Blaser is probably the strongest of the three, but that in no way makes it the best rifle, because it certainly is not IMO!

The thing that is most important in chooseing one of these doubles is the use it will be put to! If that use is hunting of dangerous game then the Blaser is out right off the bat!

The reason being the combi-cocking system it houses! Many think this is the same system that is found on the Krieghoff, but it is not! The Krieghoff, and the Merkel both re-cock themsilves after firing and breaking to re-load the chamber or chambers. and both have manual safeties! The Blaser is fitted with an automatic so-called safety, that cannot be disconected. How this works is, the rifle is loaded, safety (rifle is automaticlly un-cocked),you fire one or both barrels,and need a couple more shots in a tight sittuation. When you break the Blaser to re-load,and close it back, it has the be re-cocked when time is getting short and danger is getting closer! Forget to re-cock, and you get hit in the belly by a big horn, or tusk, because the rifle didn't fire whe you pulled the trigger.

The same sittuation with the Krieghoff, or the Merkel, when you slam that rifle shut, all you need do is pull the trigger for the next shot, because neither rifle has an auto safety, and both re-cock themselves when the rifle is broken open to re-load the chambers. If however any of these rifles would only be used for deer, or moose, then it doesn't matter, but when you select a double rifle for use on dangerous game, there two one rules total reliability, and the KISS factor ( Keep It Simple Stupid). The two things not wanted on a DGR double rifle are an AUOTMATIC SAFETY, and a SINGLE TRIGGER! The Krieghoff is the safest double rifle in existance today,to carry while fully loaded, and un-cocked, but has auto- re-cock.

IMO, the Merkel is as strong as one needs a double rifle to be, yet is built very close to the Brittish style,and they are as accurate as any double I have ever owned. If it is your interest, they are now available in the Safari chamberings with selective ejectors. I can live with the rifle either way, but some want ejectors. There are a couple of things that are needed with the Merkel rifles. One is a good recoil pad, and is where one adjusts the length of pull for yourself. Also the rifle is light for the 500NE, because the same outside diameter of the barrel is used for both the 470NE, and the 500NE, so the 500NE actually weighs less that the 470NE. With a good recoil pad it isn't a problem!

Foe My money of the ones listed, I would buy the Merkel, and if you can live with extractors, those models are selling for bargain prices now that the new ones are ejector madels! In any event the Merkel Safaris can be found NEW for under $10K!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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Der_Jaeger
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Re: Merkel versus Krieghoff [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #126633 - 11/02/09 07:31 AM


Dugaboy,

Outstanding review of the three rifles! Thank you! I agree with your statement regarding the role the action bar plays as a result of bending, radial, and lateral forces as it relates to guns coming off-face. If you're going to have a rifle or shotgun with a relatively short action bar, make damn certain it has a Greener Crossbolt to mitigate those forces. In fact, I would want one regardless.

--------------------


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SharpsNitro
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Re: Merkel versus Krieghoff [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #126644 - 11/02/09 11:45 AM

Quote:



SHARPSNITRO I think you are mistaken in your opinion of what makes a double rifle strong as far as coming off face by shooting! When a double rifle comes off face because of a hot load it is not the lugs that bend but the action BAR! In the case you site, the bar is actually made weaker by the removal of steel in the bar to accomidate the extra wide lugs! The idea that the rifle is stronger because the lug is wider is camouflage hideing the real problem. The lugs in that rifle are wider so they are easier to machine fit, not to improve strength. ...






I would argue your comment about the wider lugs resulting in a weaker frame (or bar). The Krieghoff has a single cocking bar in the center of the frame so the sidewalls are solid compared to most others. Maybe I didn't phrase it so well but my opinion that it is the strongest action is due to the better load path (i.e. less twisting) resulting from the wider lugs. The action also seems to be more compact than many (by eye anyway, I don't have a good measurement database for comparison) so the moment arms should be shorter.

I should probably not have made the comment looking back on it because I don't know the Blaser layout very well. Since I am in agreement with you about them botching the safety/cocking system I didn't take them as a serious contender.


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