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DarylS
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Patched Round Balls for Bore Guns
      #125460 - 31/01/09 01:35 AM

Suggestion for testing:

Just this morning, I was reading an old Cast Bullet Association magazine, "The Fouling Shot" and came across an article that reminded me of some testing done by friends some years ago. 2 of them are still using this system, yet I haven't tried it myself. Their success and the article prompted this post.

When I detailed how I was loading the round balls to them for my shotgun and supplied them with balls, they decided it was too much work, so took a different and easier path. They simply patched the balls as they would for a muzzleloading rifle, with cloth patches.

The article I read suggested using buckshot size that would easily fit in ctg. brass they were using, and described excellent accuracy for small game shooting with the hunting rifle. They were talking about 6.5Mm through .30 cal. hunting rifles. This system demands further attention for us in finding and developing loads for our smoothies. If a .308 or .30/06 can give the 1" accuracy at 25 yards with a cloth patched buckshot ball, then our smoothbores with sights should do the same, as the larger the ball, the more accurate the shooting. We don't have scopes and rifling, but we have bll diameter to make up for some of that advantage loss - should come out about even, I figure.

Way back when, the boys asked me if I thought patched balls would work, instead of using the base cup off a trap wad and I merely said - give it a try. I was so enamoured with my own success that I didn't even try their method. Since they are still using it and claim it's terrific, I MUST give it a whirl myself.

They wanted a round ball load they could shoot from their duck guns having full chokes. I told them to use cloth that allowed them to still push or tap the ball through the choke with a rod. They were using the .684" RB's I gave them and probably tee-shirt material or other thin cotton. I suggest you stay away from synthetics, however they may work as well - plastic wads do, but also foul the bore sometimes. I remember Howard telling me the WW balls would go through both sides of a 45 gallon (imp. measure) drum, while a factory Foster slug just lead splashed it and some made a small split at impact, but none penetrated one side, let alone both as those round balls did. Evena pure lead ball would punch through one side, then split the other with lead extruded out the slit.

Loads, yes, loads - they used normal 1 1/4oz. duck loads with 7625 and 4756. Look them up - from my memory, probably around 24gr. SR7625 or 26 to 28gr. of SR4756. These loads are slightly less than what can be used with round balls in 12 bores. The velocities the guys were getting were probably a lot lower that what is possible, but perhaps they were in the 1,250fps to 1,350fps range. The moose they shot while duck hunting didn't know the loads were 200fps lower than possible. Both guys reported groups in the 5" range at 50 yards - I know they were shooting either offhand, or off the hoods of their pick-ups as there are no benches at the gravel pit where they shoot.

They were both enamoured with the accuracy in any event and just recently were asking me for more balls. They'd bought new duck guns and wanted to do some more testing.

So - no matter what the calibre, you can shoot patched round balls in your bore rifle or smoothbore. I will be trying this method in the straight rifled Husky 16 - with a .021" denim patch lubed with beeswax/vaseline or beeswax/olive oil for lube in the patch and a .662" round ball.

Such an undersized ball can easily be patched to fit the .703" grooved diameter of the straight rifled bore. It can do nothing but be perfectly centred as well just as it is in a muzzleloading rifle. This also goes for smoothbores - no need for the inverted plastic gas check wads and bore lubrication at the same time.

For unchoked 20 bore, I suggest a .595" ball and a .015" to .020" patch. This is what the local muzzleloading shooters use in their 20 bore smoothbores. For a true 16 bore, you'd need a ball somewhere in the .620" to .648" range and .020" to .015" patch - whatever fits in the bore with the patch around the ball fora very snug fit. Testing will quickly show what patch is needed. One merely picks an undersized ball and patches it to fit in the bore. I suggest with hard balls, the patch be a really tight fit only. With pure lead balls, which work just fine on any North American game, the fit can be even tighter as the balls easily compress going into the bore when fired.

How to load patche dround balls? Simply dump your powder charge into the primed hull, then card wad, then the fibre or filler wads until the height will allow a ball with patch and still be crimped, either roll or folded is fine. Lay the lubricated patch over the case mouth, and shove in a round ball. Use a short dowel or the wad seater plunger on your shotshell loading press to seat the patch and ball onto the top wad, then crimp - easy as can be.

This type of loading is easily accomplished with a set of Lee hand tools, or no comperical tools at all - just what you can make for yourself, but crimping is easier with the proper tool. The Lee-loader-type tools make depriming and re-priming easy, as well as wad insertion into the hull, then crimping. I do suggest them as a minimum tool set.

ww.trackofthewolf.com sells loaders as well as balls of many different sizes, swaged and/or cast, along with the wads. Check the wad diameters and get the one that is a tight fit in your cases. I just received the proper sized 14 bore wads from them for use in my 16 bore straight rifled tube. The left tube uses normal 16 bore wads in plastic hulls. I will be trying the cloth patched round balls in both barrels myself this coming week - if the winds let off a bit.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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peter
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Re: Patched Round Balls for Bore Guns [Re: DarylS]
      #125464 - 31/01/09 02:35 AM

daryl

you devil, you evil tempter. thanks for this tip it sounds almost so licical that even i can do it with out destroying anything. thanks

peter


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beleg2
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Reged: 15/08/07
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Re: Patched Round Balls for Bore Guns [Re: peter]
      #125471 - 31/01/09 04:49 AM

Daryl,
Thanks for the tips!
I have been wanting to try Rb on my shotguns but they are full or half choked.
For full choke, If I can underestad you correcty, your advise is to use a ball-patch combination that pass throug the choke? Easy or snug?
What about my .575 RB for the 20ga.
I have not try it yet because Im afraid to damage one of my beloved guns.
Thanks
Martin


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Huvius
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Re: Patched Round Balls for Bore Guns [Re: beleg2]
      #125507 - 31/01/09 12:40 PM

I have wondered about this quite a bit lately.
I am in the process of converting a Spanish 10 bore to a roundball gun and figured that this is how it would be done if I converted it to a muzzle loader, so why not in a cartridge gun?
The only thing is that I was thinking of patching the ball from the front and wrapping it down around to the wad side so the ball is completly wrapped. I imagined the ball leaving the cloth behind in the mouth of the case especially if the ball is seated in the shell mouth just up to midline using brass shells.

A nice khaki canvas or plaid patch would look sporty...

Is this really a concern? Probably not an issue if using a roll crimp in a paper or plastic hull.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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DarylS
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Re: Patched Round Balls for Bore Guns [Re: Huvius]
      #125518 - 31/01/09 02:22 PM

Huvius - I had the same thought - that perhaps somehow the cloth patch could stay behind, but because slightly larger than bore sized wads follow the patched ball, I've decided leaving the patch behind cannot happen. The wads scrub the forcing cone as they swage into bore and therefore would shove any 'remaining' patch or patch out with the rest of the ejecta, ie; ball. Due to the ball sitting right on a wad, the patch isn't left behind it seems, according to the shooting my friends have done. They've actually been loading this way since 1984 or 85.

Martin - what is the choke in your 20? You'll have to measure the choke first before deciding on what patch to use. I know some of the guys used .575" balls in 20 bore shotcups for their muzzleloading 20's. Whether they were choked or not, I don't know. This was before we realized that black powder flames melted the plastic and plastered it all over the bore. After that eye opener, a couple to 3 card wads between plastic and black powder seemed to work.

As long as you can push the patched ball out the choke, it will not harm the choke. The boys are actually shooting a VERY tight load, with a fairly non-compressable ball(WW metal), yet have not hurt their guns.

If you can tap it through the chokes, it's ok. If you are still worried, use pure lead balls. They won't hurt the choke if a bit too tight. They aren't like iron shot unless they are harder than brinel 40 or 50 which is impossible. Even copper is brinel 35, which is about 2 points harder than you can get an lead alloy. Lead based WW metal is made of pure lead, antimony and a sidgen of other crap which runs a brinel 9 to 13 depending on what country they are made in. Pure lead is usually brinel 5 to 6 depending on it's actual purity %'age.

The nomimal size for 20 to the pound, is .615". A normal 20 bore has about 28 thou of choke (I think) for full, so that's .587" - these figures are all subjective to whether or not your gun matches these dimensions - probably doesn't. You'll have to measure it. In this case I'd say the .575" ball is too big, and you should use a .562" ball. That will allow a thicker patch in the barrel dimensions I gave, such as: .587" - .562" equals .025" which leaves .0125" per size windage. Experience has taught me that you should easily be able to use a .015" lubricated patch. Now, how you measure a given patch material and how I measure the same cloth, are probably different and will give different results. This is due to the compressability of cloth and method of measuring and with which tool. Once lubricated, the measurements are all wonky again, so all my measuring is done pre-lubing so I have a stable platform for comparrisons. I use a 1" michrometer, not calipers. The Michrometer has a round anvil system that gives me exactly the same numbers with the same cloth, every time I measure it. With the calipers, stick the cloth in too far by a few thou or not far enough and you get different readings - I switched to a mic. My brother's mic has different tension on the ratchet, so gives a thou or so different readings than mine. He uses .023" patches in his muzzleloaders and I use .0215" in mine - same piece of cloth. Suffice to say that 8 pound denim is usually around .015" to .017" and 6 pound denim is usually around .012" to .013" 10 pound denim will run .020" to .0215".

Further point regarding patch thickness and lubrication. The thicker the patch, the more lube it carries - this is a good thing when black powder is used as the projectus. Always use a BP lube with black powder. Black powder lubes work very well with smokeless powders as well.

Peter - you are most welcome. Enjoy! See- just when you thought it was easy - well , it is.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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beleg2
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Re: Patched Round Balls for Bore Guns [Re: DarylS]
      #125616 - 02/02/09 12:50 AM

Daryl,
Thanks my Newman 20Ga have 15,4mm (.606") and 15,2mm (.599").
I use a caliper so I think it is a little on the conservative side.
Im puzzled about how it works.
As it accelerate, why do the patch do not fold back?
I mean, why do it stay put flying throug the .61" barrel?
I know: if it works do not fix it...... LOL.
I will have to try it.
Thanks
Martin


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DarylS
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Re: Patched Round Balls for Bore Guns [Re: beleg2]
      #125626 - 02/02/09 04:44 AM

Patches are compressible and will fit well enough to stay. The wads behind which take up excess space in the shot shell keep pushing the patched ball ahead of them and since the patch is already around the ball, it stays. The boys here, as I said, have been doing this since the early 80's and they were shooting .684" balls with about .012" patches through a .690" choke - no damage - BUT - do be careful about shooting oversized combinations - don't know how strong or resistant your gun's chokes are.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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450
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Re: Patched Round Balls for Bore Guns [Re: DarylS]
      #126536 - 10/02/09 02:28 PM

Daryl s

I take it that the patched round ball would also be suitable for a rifled 12 bore barrel as well as it would prevent leading and would be more forgiving in size tolerance than an unpatched ball. Would the patched ball obtain the same pressures as an unpatched ball in a rifled 12 bore barrel? Would the flannelette cleaning cloth be a suitable patching material?

Thanks

--------------------
The worst days shooting and hunting is better than the best day at work


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DarylS
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Re: Patched Round Balls for Bore Guns [Re: 450]
      #126608 - 11/02/09 02:37 AM

Quote:

Daryl s

I take it that the patched round ball would also be suitable for a rifled 12 bore barrel as well as it would prevent leading and would be more forgiving in size tolerance than an unpatched ball. Would the patched ball obtain the same pressures as an unpatched ball in a rifled 12 bore barrel? Would the flannelette cleaning cloth be a suitable patching material?

Thanks




If patched tightly enough, they should shoot fairly well in a rifled 12 if not pushed too hard. Most modern rifled 12's have twists appropriate for shooting conicals, not round balls. A twist of 66" or slower will work well with round balls - in fact, would be excellent. With RB's the slower the twist, the faster you can drive them. Of course, recoil will increase.

I would use a thin denim like 6oz. rather then a weak cloth like flannel, but- depending on ball size and groove depth. The denim is much stronger. Here, denim fabric is available by the meter in 'weights'. They measure something like this, using a michrometer - 6oz= .013" ; 8oz= .017" to .018"; 10 oz.= .020" to .0215" and 12 oz= .0235" to .0240". The variations are due to different makes and slightly different weaves. For lubrication, if using black powder, use a thinned black powder bullet lube like SPG or Lyman's Back Powder Gold thinned with 100% neetsfoot oil or olive oil - or merely beeswax/olive oil about 50/50 - whatever viscosity you want, depending on temps. The lubed patch in the top of the 'shell' will also seal quite well against moisture intrusion.

I use the 10oz denim for both my muzzleloading rifles and also used it for the patched ball loads for the 16 bore's, 13 bore straight rifled barrel.(yeah- sounds strange) I've 25 rounds ready for testing, but haven't been to the range yet - it's snowed in and I hate packing a bunch of stuff when on misery slippers - (unlike 9.3x57).

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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450
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Re: Patched Round Balls for Bore Guns [Re: DarylS]
      #126642 - 11/02/09 11:09 AM

Thanks Daryls, denim is easily available from my wife's sewing basket. I am not sure of the twist in the rifled ckoke until it arrives, but I will let you know.

--------------------
The worst days shooting and hunting is better than the best day at work


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DarylS
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Re: Patched Round Balls for Bore Guns [Re: 450]
      #126953 - 14/02/09 07:32 AM

Here are some more rounds ready for testing. If the patched rounds don't work- I'll try using larger the patches that come up a bit higher on the sides and if that doesn't work, I'll patch them backwards. With lube on the patches, ball-side, they'll stick to the bullet and be easier to seat on top of the top wad. The pressure of leaving the and hitting the rifling, will move the lube to the outside where it will lube properly. I'm using a combination of SPG and olive oil for these, quite a soft & creamy lube for winter shooting. No telling when the next warm spell will hit. I like it to be above -10 for shooting. Hoping the 'trap' loads shoot well enough for the BP ctg. competition at rendezvous this May and August too.


--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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450
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Re: Patched Round Balls for Bore Guns [Re: DarylS]
      #127133 - 15/02/09 03:56 PM

Daryl s

Two questions. Does it make ant difference if the sprue is seated forward like your or seated backwards. What do you use to crimp your brass cases.

--------------------
The worst days shooting and hunting is better than the best day at work


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Huvius
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Re: Patched Round Balls for Bore Guns [Re: 450]
      #127134 - 15/02/09 04:05 PM

Quote:

Daryl s

Two questions. Does it make ant difference if the sprue is seated forward like your or seated backwards. What do you use to crimp your brass cases.




I suspect that it is just easier to center the sprue when it is where you can see it - on top.

I also want to know the best way to roll brass cases.
I bought a roll crimping tool for my 10ga. from Ballistic Products and it works perfectly on the plastic hulls. I would try it for a light roll on brass, but I don't want to screw it up...

Edited by Huvius (15/02/09 04:10 PM)


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DarylS
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Re: Patched Round Balls for Bore Guns [Re: Huvius]
      #127226 - 16/02/09 08:03 AM

I used a steel cone that is for re-starting the crimps on paper hulls - my press is an old Herters, before plastic hulls. I took the cone off the press and screwed it to the little 16 bore press I picked up at a gun show for $10.00. It's quite small and all steel - Pacific I think. I put shims underneath the wad seater station so it would stop the ram when giving the amount of crimp you see on the cases loaded with shot - they were the last ones I loaded. Probably took 10 min to load the 5 rounds - maybe less. I did weigh out the black powder charges which takes time.

If using a crimper that spins in a drill press, I'd make sure I used a thick greasy lube on the outside of the case. Adjust the 'throw' to only put in as much 'crimp' as needed. It doesn't take much and you could even use less than I did with the shot loaded cases.

A solid steel star crimper would work as well - as early metal cases sometimes had star-crimps.

As to sprue up or down - someone always asks - I then ask, how can you load the sprue down and have it actually centred? Sprue up, or file it off so then it doesn't matter.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Alberta
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Re: Patched Round Balls for Bore Guns [Re: DarylS]
      #127231 - 16/02/09 08:49 AM

I have tried both sprue up and down ( put a mark on the ball opposite the sprue to insure it was centered down) and found that the sprue up balls shot much better. I was using Rem plastic hulls, with various plastic wads.

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