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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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jeh10
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Reged: 24/01/09
Posts: 5
Loc: Texas
Best Double Rifle for +/- $10K
      #125396 - 30/01/09 05:33 AM

I am new to this site and I must say, what a great resource. I am also new to the pursuit of a double rifle, so please excuse my ignorance. I have become somewhat obsessed with owning one and I'm not sure why. I own several several large caliber bolt actions, that shoot like a dream, but now seem woefully inadequate when compared to my new found obsession.

My ulitmate goal is to buy a double that I use on an elephant safari. I have come to my own conclusion that a 470 NE is the caliber for me but I'm sure I could be talked out of that if need be. Like with many new pursuits I am looking to enter this market at the entry level.

I spoke with dealer that claims to handle as many doubles as anyone and asked him the following question:

What is the best "least expensive" double rifle on the market. Assuming I am trying to stay in the ballpark of $10K he was very emphatic that I only had two choices - 1) Chapuis and 2) Heym. He further noted that it would be unlikely that I could ever find a used Heym in that price range which left me with only really one choice - the Chapuis.

He was very, very high on the Chapuis and very down on some of the larger names that are built in the U.S. He loved some of the European brands but all of those were way out of my price range.

Here is my question to you - did I get good advice or am I really missing something.

Thanks in advance.

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
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Re: Best Double Rifle for +/- $10K [Re: jeh10]
      #125397 - 30/01/09 05:49 AM


Also look at Searcy.


Suggest you also look at the Accurate Reloading forums,
just need to sort the BS out but some good info on it
as well, particularly for US based buyers.

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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
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Re: Best Double Rifle for +/- $10K [Re: 500Nitro]
      #125399 - 30/01/09 06:11 AM

If the fellow you talked to was in Oklahoma I think he is a Chapuis Distributor.

That might cloud his opinion a bit.

A lot of people like Merkel and Searcy also. A number of Italian rifles fit that price range.

For your price point you are limited to New rifles or New, used ones. Most here would tell you that sooner or later you will want to step up to an English or top quality Euro rifle.

Don't limit yourself to just the ones you can afford now.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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SharpsNitro
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Reged: 12/08/08
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Re: Best Double Rifle for +/- $10K [Re: jeh10]
      #125408 - 30/01/09 07:49 AM

Take a look at the Martini and Hagn website. They have a new-in-the-box Heym 88PH in 470NE; it's priced at $16,300CAD. With the current exchange rate that's only about $13,300USD.

http://www.martiniandhagngunmakers.com/forsale.htm

Also, just ran across this as well:

http://www.gunsinternational.com/detail.cfm?id=100015102&string=cid=537

Edited by SharpsNitro (30/01/09 08:10 AM)

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bonanza
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Reged: 17/05/04
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Re: Best Double Rifle for +/- $10K [Re: jeh10]
      #125410 - 30/01/09 07:54 AM

I like Merkels. I think you can really get one for 10k.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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Bwana
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Reged: 07/03/05
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Loc: Monroe, Michigan
Re: Best Double Rifle for +/- $10K [Re: bonanza]
      #125431 - 30/01/09 01:20 PM

I will tell you that one of the best rifles you can buy in that price range is the Cabela's Chapuis. It has a lot of upgrades and shoots like a dream. .470 is all the caliber you will ever need for anything. Buy one and you won't regret it.

Bwana

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Naren
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Reged: 05/04/08
Posts: 23
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Re: Best Double Rifle for +/- $10K [Re: Bwana]
      #125480 - 31/01/09 08:17 AM

http://www.gunsinternational.com/detail.cfm?id=100064033&string=act=adv

This maybe something worth taking a look...

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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: Best Double Rifle for +/- $10K [Re: bonanza]
      #125484 - 31/01/09 10:40 AM

Quote:

I like Merkels. I think you can really get one for 10k.




Actually have seen Merkels listed in quite a few areas priced in the $9000 range ..and if you watch, you can get them for even less...

The web address shown above that has Heym's at $12,000 plus is a heck of a deal--and if you could get into one for $10,000 that is the way I personally would go..heck of a lot of gun for the $$--at least the ones I have looked at in the past couple years..

Chapuis or Merkel don't fit me very well therefore not much of a fan--but do agree, think Merkel's are a very well made gun for the money...

One final thing to confuse the issue even more...if it were me, I would get the 500 Nitro over the .470....470 is great and that is what I currently have --BUT, in the doubles I have shot,,no noticable difference in recoil for around 700 more ft/lbs in energy...there are pros and cons either way..but that would be my choice based on hunting there, shooting quite a few doubles in the past few years and talking with other hunters around the campfire --either way..be careful, once you get bit by that double bug, it is similar to the African Safari bug..hard to shake..and you keep wanting more...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
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Re: Best Double Rifle for +/- $10K [Re: Ripp]
      #125496 - 31/01/09 11:11 AM

Ripp, the 500NE is my favorite over .400 cal in a double rifle as well! However, people in the USA are experienceing problems getting their ammo confiscated as destructive weapons ammo by the feds at the airports. The 500NE is not illegal to take into other countries for hunting rifles, but the numb nuts screeners are lucky to read thier own name on their pay check, much less interpit the export regs. The flash point is the "500NE" which they interpit as regulated in the OVER 50 CAL ban for military weapons.

A couple of hunters got to Africa, and found their ammo was still in the states, for a 500NE, and a 577NE double! The 470NE is not being even winked at, however!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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PAHunter
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Reged: 18/02/04
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Loc: Allentown, PA USA
Re: Best Double Rifle for +/- $10K [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #125500 - 31/01/09 11:42 AM

Like Bwana stated above. The Cabelas special purchase 470 NE Chapuis Brousse with the upgraded wood has all the bells and whistles. And they really shoot.

I bought the 470 NE with the upgraded wood and ejectors and have been very happy. I got a heck of a deal from Cabelas, used a $150.00 coupon, and all my Cabela points.

The other good thing is that if you have a problem Cabelas will take care of it pronto for you. If you buy the rifle and decide it isn't for you they will even take it back.

My rifle shoots LESS than 1.5 inches for (4) shots at 50 yards, 2R/2L. One comment always seems to pop up about Chapuis, that is... THEY SHOOT... I got two regulation targets with my rifle. Two shots center to center .725 in. at 50 meters. They are regulated with Federal Woodleigh 500 gr. Soft Points.

Yes, I held and looked at least (5) Merkels, (2) Searcys, (3) Kreighoffs, only (1) Heym. My personal choice was the Chapuis. And I would have paid LESS for the Merkels and Kreighoff. Some were new and some were used, some were alot more expensive like the Heym. A $3K difference more for me was a deal breaker. Sometimes you have to have a little bit common sense...LOL

Remember beauty is in the eye of the beholder...

REgards.. PAHunter

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SharpsNitro
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Reged: 12/08/08
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Re: Best Double Rifle for +/- $10K [Re: Naren]
      #125501 - 31/01/09 11:49 AM

Quote:

http://www.gunsinternational.com/detail.cfm?id=100064033&string=act=adv

This maybe something worth taking a look...



If you "View Seller's Other Items," he has new Merkels for as low as $7,900.

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SharpsNitro
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Reged: 12/08/08
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Re: Best Double Rifle for +/- $10K [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #125504 - 31/01/09 11:57 AM

Quote:

Ripp, the 500NE is my favorite over .400 cal in a double rifle as well! However, people in the USA are experienceing problems getting their ammo confiscated as destructive weapons ammo by the feds at the airports. The 500NE is not illegal to take into other countries for hunting rifles, but the numb nuts screeners are lucky to read thier own name on their pay check, much less interpit the export regs. The flash point is the "500NE" which they interpit as regulated in the OVER 50 CAL ban for military weapons.

A couple of hunters got to Africa, and found their ammo was still in the states, for a 500NE, and a 577NE double! The 470NE is not being even winked at, however!



Do you have any hard numbers on how many people have had this happen (i.e. more than just the two listed above)? I'm hoping this is a one-off or urban legend (I just bought a 500NE). The TSA never even looked at my ammo when I went to Namibia last year, it was in the same case as the rifle.

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bonanza
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Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: Best Double Rifle for +/- $10K [Re: Ripp]
      #125509 - 31/01/09 12:54 PM

I owned a Merkel DR and a Chapuis DR (at the same time). In my honest opinion the Merkel is a finer rifle. The Chapuis is goofy. From the A&D action to the splinter forend; the Merkel is closer to an English rifle than any continental firearm I've seen. I only sold my Merkel to get a real English DR.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: Best Double Rifle for +/- $10K [Re: bonanza]
      #125521 - 31/01/09 03:02 PM

Quote:

I owned a Merkel DR and a Chapuis DR (at the same time). I only sold my Merkel to get a real English DR.



That is exactely what I did---but agree and as I stated earlier---think the Merkel is a really fine rifle for the $$$.

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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ozhunter
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Reged: 18/08/04
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Loc: Sydney, Australia
Re: Best Double Rifle for +/- $10K [Re: Ripp]
      #125535 - 31/01/09 07:12 PM

A second hand Merkel for less than $9000, but you will have to be happy with extractors.
Now that ejectors are offered by Merkel there should be more extractor models available at this price range.

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PAHunter
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Reged: 18/02/04
Posts: 24
Loc: Allentown, PA USA
Re: Best Double Rifle for +/- $10K [Re: ozhunter]
      #125579 - 01/02/09 08:07 AM

Again beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I don't want to get in a pissing match Chapuis vs Merkel.

You like Merkel... I like Chapuis.

The cheap little plastic pistol cap on the Merkel for over $10K... or the rough finish and very plain wood on the two I looked at in Cabelas. Me thinks not.

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Fladude
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Reged: 21/11/07
Posts: 15
Loc: florida
Re: Best Double Rifle for +/- $10K [Re: PAHunter]
      #125583 - 01/02/09 09:41 AM

I had a chance to handle some Merkels at the Shot Show a few weeks ago, and had an opportunity to speak directly with the importer for about twenty minutes. I found them to be very professional and I liked the feel of the rifles. I won't give out the dealer price, but I will say that it is in your ballpark.

Edited to add: I was told that at that time that they had some .500 Nitro's in stock.

Edited by Fladude (01/02/09 09:43 AM)

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jeh10
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Reged: 24/01/09
Posts: 5
Loc: Texas
Re: Best Double Rifle for +/- $10K [Re: PAHunter]
      #125584 - 01/02/09 09:56 AM

Guys, this is a ton of great information. I have tried to talk to as many dealers as possible about the qualities that make a good double rifle. Here are some things I have gathered. Based on the input here on the board, I have added Merkel to my list to consider.

1) Is the rifle built on a sturdy double rifle frame?

From what I have heard both the Heym and Chapuis are built on a very sturdy frame while I have been told that the Merkel is built on their 20 ga frame.

2) Is the rifle properly weighted and balanced?

I have handled both the Heym and Merkel and I think the Heym seems to have a better balance with more weight between the hands (which I am told you want). I handled the Chapuis before I was aware of the weight/balance factor so I can't comment on its feel.

3) Does the rifle have ejectors?

Heym and Chapuis have it, Merkel doesn't.

4) Articulated front trigger?

Heym has it, Chapuis and Merkel do not.

5) Interceptor sear?

Heym has it, Chapuis and Merkel do not.

6) Which is the better looking rifle?

Heym (at my price range) is the big loser here - its a very plain looking rifle.
Both the Chapuis and Merkel look nice to me. I like the details of the Chapuis, it looks more expensive. I really like the forend of the Merkel.

7) Affordability

The very best price I could find on a Heym was $12,600 new but it is a low end gun (low end wood, no scrooling).

The Chapuis I can find new at about $9,500 and used at about $8,500

The Merkel I can find new for about $9,000 and used for about $8,000

Net/net still don't know what I want to do. I was leaning to the Merkel but the 20 ga frame issues worries me. The lack of ejectors doesn't feel like a deal killer but seems like a nice option.

I welcome any comments on this because I clearly still have no idea what I am doing. I am simply replaying things that I have been told.

Are some of these factors being over played by the experts?

Thanks again!

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ozhunter
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Re: Best Double Rifle for +/- $10K [Re: jeh10]
      #125585 - 01/02/09 10:01 AM

jeh10,
The Merkel's now come with Ejectors if you want.

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mickey
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Re: Best Double Rifle for +/- $10K [Re: ozhunter]
      #125588 - 01/02/09 10:33 AM

It's been discussed ad nauseum here about whether the Merkels rifles are built on a 20 Gauge action or the 20 Gauge is built on a rifle action. The verdict, as far as I can tell, is it doesn't matter. No one seems to have had a problem with them no matter what they are built on.

The Chapuis are good, I guess, but I can't get my mind off of their old reputation of being soft steel and thus coming off face easily. I think that is why they went to the Double hook under bite in the first place. I've been told they use better steel now but old prejudices die hard.

Good Luck and as long as you buy what you want you will be happy I'm sure.

I do like ejectors though.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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bonanza
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Re: Best Double Rifle for +/- $10K [Re: jeh10]
      #125617 - 02/02/09 01:03 AM

Jeh10,

My .375 H&H Merkel had over 700 rounds shot any it was tight as new when I sold it.

There were two things that finally drove me to sell my Chapuis. The top lever is tiny and the forend is huge.

Regarding ejectors: it's personal, I hate them, event on my shotguns.

Consider re-sale, because you WILL "upgrade" down the road

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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jeh10
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Reged: 24/01/09
Posts: 5
Loc: Texas
Re: Best Double Rifle for +/- $10K [Re: bonanza]
      #125632 - 02/02/09 05:23 AM

bonanza,

Which rifle do think has better re-sale?

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PAHunter
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Reged: 18/02/04
Posts: 24
Loc: Allentown, PA USA
Re: Best Double Rifle for +/- $10K [Re: jeh10]
      #125643 - 02/02/09 07:20 AM


Also remeber there are different grades of Chapuis, The Brousse Cabela sells for $12,000.00 new. You can get them discounted used.

Yes, the forearms are bigger and wider, but I like holding on to that meaty forearm. Let's face it a 470 NE is NO pussy cat when it goes boom. The more weight and material to hold on to the better I like it.

I did shoot a 500 NE Merkel, it was really on the edge of to much recoil and not fun to shoot in my book.

I love beautiful grained stocks, in MHO only the upgraded English DR's had better wood than the Chapuis Brousse.

And again, I think the engraving, the long tang, and the metal pistol cap have it in spades in the looks department.

And last but not least..THEY SHOOT..

Good Luck.... If at all possible you should really try and shoot a few doubles before making a final decision.

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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
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Re: Best Double Rifle for +/- $10K [Re: jeh10]
      #125651 - 02/02/09 10:03 AM

Quote:

Guys, this is a ton of great information. I have tried to talk to as many dealers as possible about the qualities that make a good double rifle. Here are some things I have gathered. Based on the input here on the board, I have added Merkel to my list to consider.

1) Is the rifle built on a sturdy double rifle frame?

From what I have heard both the Heym and Chapuis are built on a very sturdy frame while I have been told that the Merkel is built on their 20 ga frame.



Merkel rifles are made on the same actions they use to make their shotguns, that is true! However, all Merkel actions are made with the tempering process for rifle use. This is a money saveing thing, because they don't have to make different actions for their rifles. in other words Merkel shotguns are made on RIFLE ACTIONS, not the other way round. The sizeing is 28 ga size, 20 ga size! The rifles made for up to 9.3X74R are made the 28 ga size action, for the mod 141, the model 140, is only sold in Europe today, but it is also made for the same chamberings as the 141,but is made on the 20 ga action, the 140-2 safari action is the 20 ga size, but as i said, all Merkle s/s rifles and shotguns are made on double rifle actions. The california Rigby buys thier actions from Merkel, and all are the 20 ga size.

Quote:

2) Is the rifle properly weighted and balanced?

I have handled both the Heym and Merkel and I think the Heym seems to have a better balance with more weight between the hands (which I am told you want). I handled the Chapuis before I was aware of the weight/balance factor so I can't comment on its feel.



Of the three you mention, the heym is best ballanced, and has the best of everything, but the price has jumped to $16K so is not in the same price point as the others!

Quote:

3) Does the rifle have ejectors?

Heym and Chapuis have it, Merkel doesn't.



The Merkels DO have ejectors on the new rifles! Of the two I own, the 140E 9.3X74R has selective ejectors, and my 470NE 140-2 safari has extractors, but ejectors are available on all NEW Merkels.

Quote:

4) Articulated front trigger?

Heym has it, Chapuis and Merkel do not.



True!

Quote:

5) Interceptor sear?

Heym has it, Chapuis and Merkel do not.



True!

Quote:

6) Which is the better looking rifle?

Heym (at my price range) is the big loser here - its a very plain looking rifle.
Both the Chapuis and Merkel look nice to me. I like the details of the Chapuis, it looks more expensive. I really like the forend of the Merkel.



The Chapuis tend to be light for caliber, and they are shiny, but I simply can't stand a beavertail foreend.

Quote:

7) Affordability

The very best price I could find on a Heym was $12,600 new but it is a low end gun (low end wood, no scrooling).

The Chapuis I can find new at about $9,500 and used at about $8,500

The Merkel I can find new for about $9,000 and used for about $8,000



In the price range you have stated of $10K, my belief is that the Merkel is the most rifle for the price, and is far closer to the English profile, than the Chapuis, Krieghoff, and I like the balance much more.

Quote:

Net/net still don't know what I want to do. I was leaning to the Merkel but the 20 ga frame issues worries me. The lack of ejectors doesn't feel like a deal killer but seems like a nice option.

I welcome any comments on this because I clearly still have no idea what I am doing. I am simply replaying things that I have been told.



As mentioned above, the 20 ga action is in size only, don't worry about the strength of that action, it will handle anything the factory chambers it for with ease!

Quote:

Are some of these factors being over played by the experts?
Thanks again!



I don't know what the EXPERTS say, but I have an idea they know what they are talking about at least most of the time! Certainly some things people tell you are personal choices, but anything they tell you, you can find out for yourself, by simply disregarding what they tell you.

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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AkMike
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Reged: 19/11/05
Posts: 2576
Loc: Anchorage, Alaska
Re: Best Double Rifle for +/- $10K [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #125652 - 02/02/09 10:09 AM

Here's a NIB Hyem PH.. 470, It's not mine nor do I have any interest in it. I just saw it and thought of this thread.

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/2711043/m/5011062201

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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