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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Mauser Discussion Forum

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mckinney
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Reged: 29/01/09
Posts: 1212
Loc: usa

Renumbered Type B Mauser in 8 x 60
#125337 - 29/01/09 09:33 AM

I recently bought a Type B Oberndorf Mauser in 8 x 60 caliber which has been 'renumbered'. The original Mauser serial numbers on the receiver and barrel have been ground off and replaced with a new 6 digit number. The bolt number doesn't match the new number and the bottom metal looks like it may be from a military action (has lock screws in the TG, but also has lever floorplate release). The rear sling swivel is missing. The receiver has the original 8 x 60 Mauser caliber markings and BUGN proofs. I am trying to figure out whether this rifle takes the 8x60 (.318) cartridge or the 8x60S (.323). I'd be grateful if anyone could shed any light on this. I've attached photos of the original mauser markings under the barrel. Also, does anyone know anything about the practice of renumbering rifles, why it was done, etc.? (this one comes from S. Africa I believe).

thanks for your help and I really enjoy the forum.

http://i583.photobucket.com/albums/ss275/netcurrentassetvalue/IMG_1592.jpg
http://i583.photobucket.com/albums/ss275/netcurrentassetvalue/IMG_1675.jpg
http://i583.photobucket.com/albums/ss275/netcurrentassetvalue/IMG_1678.jpg

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paradox_
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Reged: 12/05/07
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Loc: Australia

Re: Renumbered Type B Mauser in 8 x 60 [Re: mckinney]
#125348 - 29/01/09 01:17 PM

mmmmm renumbering, is not as far as Im aware an "accepted practice" anywhere, unless of course someone did not want the rifle indentified????
Do the bottom metal numbers match the bolt numbers??
This is likely a 318 bore,but easliy checked by slugging the bore.

Good luck
Eric

--------------------
Walk softly and carry a big stick

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pjaln
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Reged: 08/06/06
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Re: Renumbered Type B Mauser in 8 x 60 [Re: paradox_]
#125353 - 29/01/09 03:07 PM

the gun looks nice, bottom metal does look like original oberndorf style, i think guns were confiscated years ago by the zimbabwe govt, bolts taken out and all dont know if this would pertain to your gun ,but could be why the bolt doesnt match i think gregor woods writes about this in his book , martin hagn has one for sale. yours looks like an early gun 1920,s.
dont know of a reason why the numbers would have been, changed...paul

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mckinney
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Reged: 29/01/09
Posts: 1212
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Re: Renumbered Type B Mauser in 8 x 60 [Re: paradox_]
#125355 - 29/01/09 03:17 PM

Yes - bottom metal numbers do match bolt numbers. I suppose that could mean the bolt and bottom metal are from another rifle.......or not. The bolt and bottom metal numbers might match the original serial numbers that were renumbered. I think the whole renumbering thing has something to do with sporting rifles being used for military purposes (in local/regional conflicts like in Africa for instance) and remarked by arsenals, but really don't know. Would love to know more.

Any idea what the markings under the rifle mean? I assume 7,85 and 8,15 represent the bore and groove diameters in millimeters - but neither of these converts to either .318 or .323 unless my arithmetic is wrong. 7.85 mm = .309 inches. 8.15 mm = .321 inches. The 240 number is the rate of twist in mm. I think. No idea what the 15114, etc. mean.

I didn't pay a lot for the rifle and knew about the renumbering before I bought it. I actually like the rifle (never meant an Oberndorf mauser I didnt like!), and would love to shoot it.

stupid question - how do you slug the bore?

Thanks for the quick response!

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mckinney
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Re: Renumbered Type B Mauser in 8 x 60 [Re: mckinney]
#125356 - 29/01/09 03:19 PM

correction - "never met an oberndorf mauser I didn't like"

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mckinney
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Re: Renumbered Type B Mauser in 8 x 60 [Re: pjaln]
#125357 - 29/01/09 03:25 PM

Thanks Paul - do you have the name of the Gregor Woods book? I have another type b in 9x57 which has the same treatment. both are pretty decent looking rifles. The Zimbabwe theory would certainly make sense.

Regards,
Russell

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JabaliHunter
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Reged: 16/05/07
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Re: Renumbered Type B Mauser in 8 x 60 [Re: mckinney]
#125373 - 29/01/09 10:36 PM

Unless there is another, the book is called Rifles for Africa. Its a VERY good book and I highly recommend it. However, I don't recall this particular discussion in it.
Best regards

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mckinney
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Re: Renumbered Type B Mauser in 8 x 60 [Re: JabaliHunter]
#125388 - 30/01/09 03:36 AM

thanks - I just ordered the book, should have it in 5 days or so.

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pjaln
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Re: Renumbered Type B Mauser in 8 x 60 [Re: mckinney]
#125427 - 30/01/09 12:49 PM

yes that is the book ,but if you really like oberndorfs in particular buy jon speeds book it is the bible these days, although other mauser sporter books of interest are,mauser bolt rifles by ludwig olsen, and commercial mauser 98 sporting rifles by lester womack i have autographed copies of both these and would often chat with both of them on the phone before the days of the internet , both are deceased ... ...paul

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mckinney
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Re: Renumbered Type B Mauser in 8 x 60 [Re: pjaln]
#125429 - 30/01/09 01:02 PM

Thanks Paul - I have the Speed book and the Olson book, but not the Womack book. It must have been great to chat with Olson and Womack. I've spent many hours reading the Speed and Olson books, but the books are in Europe at the moment and I am in the US. I don't recall if there is any mention of 'renumbered' guns. I also don't remember if there is any discussion or table dealing with the markings under the barrel (7,85..8,15, etc.). It's still a mystery that neither of these figures converts to either .318 or .323.

Would you recommend buying the Womack book?

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pjaln
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Re: Renumbered Type B Mauser in 8 x 60 [Re: mckinney]
#125437 - 30/01/09 02:51 PM

yes the womack book is interesting , he acually does a hardness , stress type test on the front ring by hammering it ,to show the flexability of the metal there are also a ot of pics of hoffman , holland, griffins , brenneke , etc. it is not a big book but at the time it was all that was out there ,....... i hope i dont sound ancient i was about 26 years old when i last talked to him ,about 24 years ago , i,m going to throw a plug in for mike petrovs book (unknown custom gunmakers} while were talking books , if you like springfields !! although my j.p. sauer is pictured in it ....paul

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mckinney
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Re: Renumbered Type B Mauser in 8 x 60 [Re: pjaln]
#125440 - 30/01/09 03:32 PM

Ha! (we're close to the same age). I have Petrov's book and also a few G&H mausers and springfields, but no Hoffmans (not that I wouldn't like to). i've traded a few emails with Michael and given him a few serial numbers for his database.

I'll see if I can find the Womack book.

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bpesteve
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Reged: 18/11/03
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Re: Renumbered Type B Mauser in 8 x 60 [Re: mckinney]
#125697 - 03/02/09 02:03 AM

Interesting that this one has both the pre-1912 gauge mark of 156,14 and the typically post 1912 detailed metric marks. 156,14 indicates that the barrel would take a .310" diameter plug gauge but not the next size up, 141,95 or .320". Your .309/.321" measurements mean that it might have been intended as either a "J" or "S" bore but really the primary consideration is whether a fired case will easily accept a .323" bullet. If it will, use those. As long as the chamber is cut so that there's clearance to freely release the bullet on firing the small difference between bullet diameter and groove dimension won't affect anything. The Ch or Cn.15 is unfamiliar to me.

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mckinney
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Re: Renumbered Type B Mauser in 8 x 60 [Re: bpesteve]
#125935 - 06/02/09 01:56 AM

Thank you for this. Very interesting to know what these markings mean. Regarding the Ch 15, I thought at first that this might have been an accidental transposition of Ch 51. But that wouldn't make sense unless the "1" and the "5" were applied in different steps.

If this were either an "S" or a "J" bore, what markings would you expect to see where the 7,85 and 8,15 are now?

Regarding the 'renumbering' generally - I learned from a South African friend that some sporting rifles were renumbered by authorities as a result of gun control legislation passed in 1937 in that country. He thinks it could be related to that.

Do you think it would be safe to fire an 8x60S RWS cartridge if it will chamber in the rifle? (with appropriate precautions of course!) I can get 8x60S ammo but have no idea where to find 8x60.

Thanks again.

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bpesteve
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Re: Renumbered Type B Mauser in 8 x 60 [Re: mckinney]
#126172 - 08/02/09 05:00 AM

A couple of thought on the S -vs- J bore possibilities for this rifle:

>>Regardless of what the marks are the best way to go about this is to make a chamber cast and slug the barrel. The chamber cast will tell you whether the neck area is likely to allow free release of .323" bullets (comparing that diameter to a loaded round, for instance) and the bore slug will tell you pretty exactly what bore and groove dimensions you are really dealing with.

>>One of the principal differences between J and S bores is the depth of the rifling, with the grooves of the S bore being deeper. The German loading manual "Wiederladen" (4th edition) gives some _current_ specs on this:

8x57J and JR bore 7,80mm - groove 8,07mm - giving a groove depth of 0,135mm (.005" or so)
These dimensions are also given for the 8x57R/360, 8x58R Sauer and the 8x72R

8x57JS and JRS bore 7,89mm - groove 8,20mm - giving a groove depth of 0,155mm (.006" or so)

The 7,85 and 8,15 marks on your rifle give a groove depth of 0,150mm (.0059" or so)

>>Given all this, my _guess_ would be that this rifle was intended to be an S bore, the fly in that ointment being that I really would have expected the "8x60" mark on your rifle to read explicitly "8x60S". The primary consideration is still the neck clearance!

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