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bonanza
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Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
.458 Winchester Magnum Subsonic loads.
      #125137 - 26/01/09 05:11 AM

Just got back from trying TrailBoss propellant for subsonic loads.

What a hoot!

Following the reloading manual, 460 grain cast projectile with 19 grains of Trail Boss yields between 900 and 1000 fps.

Accuracy was excellent. 1" and 50 yards. Recoil was non-existent. Sounded like a 22 long rifle.

Hmmm, now where is that sniper scope?


***** WARNING *****

For those who may want to try this, cast bullets ONLY. Jacketed bullet can get stuck.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26632
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Re: .458 Winchester Magnum Subsonic loads. [Re: bonanza]
      #125141 - 26/01/09 05:52 AM

Bananza - I know where-of you speak - Fun it is. I tried Trail Boss in my .45/60 35" bl. Sharps, using 15gr. with 385gr RN and 345gr.HP cast bullets. These were supersonic, though, maybe 1,200fps @ 2,000' ASL. A 12 gr. load would drop them to about 900fps. They're accurate for sure 1.3" at 100 meters for the 385gr. The .340's went 4". Shooting was with tang mounted peep and globed front cross hair insert. As to sound, still quite quiet and virtually no recoil - like shooting a .243.

This powder sure is fun to shoot. It's so light and fluffy - no mistake on level in the case - almost full yet has hardly any weight.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5504
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Re: .458 Winchester Magnum Subsonic loads. [Re: DarylS]
      #125183 - 27/01/09 12:57 AM

I introduced my son to rifle shooting when he was just a little guy with the .45-70 stoked with the old cast Army revolver bullet, Lyman 454190 and about 8 grains of Unique. Also 400+ grain FP bullets with 10 grains of Unique. Like a big wheelgun cartridge. Very cheap to shoot also, and truth be known,the latter is a killer on game up to the size of deer anyhow.

He was so young and small couldn't hold up the gun and had to shoot from sandbag-rested prone, but he sure did like seeing those big holes in the target. Made him feel like a Real He-Man compared to when he just shot BB Gun and his Hi-Velocity Small Bore {.22 LR... }

The .454190 bullet was undersize but shot well at 25 yards and since the case didn't grab the bullet too well, we just handloaded them straight into the chamber like we were working an underlever single shot. Lessons on action types right there at an early age!

The .458 seems to me to be a super option for a "fun gun" and old timey pistol powder/cast bullet loads.

Nice job, Bonanza. Other end of the spectrum from that .264!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: .458 Winchester Magnum Subsonic loads. [Re: 9.3x57]
      #125199 - 27/01/09 08:17 AM

Rod - In the Marlin, try about 15gr. AL8 if you have any, with the Speer RN swaged bullet, 230gr. They ran mid 1,300's in my .458 2". That load shot to the 'post' of the duplex crosshair in my 2 1/2X scope at 25 yards & just went - pow! quite unspectacular. It has enough power for deer of course, but the undersized, but soft bullet would run 3" at 100 yards with the peep sight. that was the only sigth I had on the rifle when developing the load. Later, I put the scope on and bingo - shot to the lower post of the reticle. It's the load I shot the 34 grouse with that fall - a few Tarmigan as well. They're just like pure white pigeons, but better tasting. At 25 yards, those little RN's make a 1/2" hole for accuracy so were perfect for head shots on grouse. I don't tremember if I put any kapoc or dacron on the powder or not - maybe not - maybe yes - just a small tuft. I don't believe in ringing chambers with these loads. I think the guys who did ring their chambers did something else, like putting a card wad between the powder and dacron - IF they even put dacron in. Perhaps instead of looking stupid for putting a card in with the huge airspace, they said they used dacron. I've shot thousands of dacron and kapoc loads and so had Paul Mathews and Ken Waters, Scovil and many others, without narry a ring.

Of course, today we have Trail Boss and around 12gr. should do the same, with lower - soft-ball type speeds. Fun! I'm using 15gr. TB in my .45/60 with bullets up to 385gr.- Go-Pow loads.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Huvius
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Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3536
Loc: Colorado
Re: .458 Winchester Magnum Subsonic loads. [Re: DarylS]
      #125207 - 27/01/09 10:05 AM

Without filler, how far down can a bullet be pushed down into the case of a .458?
I remember an article on stacking wadcutters or roundballs, in a 45/70 I think it was. Might be similar (?)
Can you replicate a 458 short ballistics but still use the full length brass?

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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bonanza
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Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: .458 Winchester Magnum Subsonic loads. [Re: Huvius]
      #125213 - 27/01/09 01:19 PM

Huvius,

Trail Boss powder is very voluminous, just drop it in, seat you CAST bullet and shot.

My Ruger 1-H .458 WM prints 1" groups at 50 yards with 460 grain hard cast wide flat nose Cast Performance bullets with 19 grains of Trail Boss. Velocity is @1000 fsp.

Max point blank range is 105 yards with a muzzle energy of 1000 ft/lbs. Optimal game weight is 230 lbs. out to 100 yards.

I'm trying to get hold of some 530 grain high BC match lead bullets for long range testing.

This is not like that SR powder, pressure is very low.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"


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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26632
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: .458 Winchester Magnum Subsonic loads. [Re: Huvius]
      #125214 - 27/01/09 01:26 PM

Quote:

Without filler, how far down can a bullet be pushed down into the case of a .458?
Can you replicate a 458 short ballistics but still use the full length brass?




Absolutely - I used to shoot multiball 'survival' loads in a .444 Marlin for fun. I used data from an old Gun Digest article - 25gr. H335 with 3 - .451" balls sized to .430" as well as the same load with 3- .440 balls sized down to .430". The .451" balls ran a combined weight of around 405gr. while the .440" balls totalled around 360gr. The 405gr. payload ran mid 1,600's and the 360gr. load was over 1,700fps. The same deal could be easily develped for the .458 - or simply go to the fluffy Trail Boss for sub-standard loads with no fillers needed.
C.E. (Ed) Harris's "The Load" of 13gr. Red dot should also work with single light weight cast bullets or probably heavy cast bullets for that matter. The load usually ran around 1,300fps and gave good accuracy in whatever round it was used in, from .308 to .375H&H. No filler was needed.

I think if you wanted to seat a bullet way down inside a .458 case, you could do this - but accuracy might not be very good (the case tapers inside) with the bullet slamming into the rifling at elevated velocities. Shoving a bullet down an inch into the .458 case would shorten the powder chamber such as to have the same length as a very short .45 case, shorter than a .45/60's 1.8" length, and that might be all that's necessary with fast powders. Start experiminting with small loads of fast powders. Stay aways from slow powders unless they're almost a full case capacity - as with the H335 loads with multi round balls. As well, one would have to have a good steel range rod just in case your starting test loads left a bullet in the bore - no damage would happen, of course if another wasn't fired on top of it, but one would want a substancial rod to be able to push it out.
I use 3' and 4' sections of 3/8" drill rod or stainless with one end grooved and firmly epoxied onto a section of birch branch or maple handle, and the other is threaded for numberous sized jags from .40 cal. to .50 cal.

By the way, those multiball laods would be good for deer or bear to about 50 yards - actually MOST effective on them, as well as being a survival self defense load for out to 100yards. Figure the gun holds 5 rounds, with 3 balls in each and each prints about an 18" pattern at 100 yards.
In the .458WM, .490" round balls sized to .458" would weigh 175gr. x 3 = 525gr, weight. You could increase the weight to perhaps 4 of them, for 700gr. - at 1,300fps, cool load. One of the slower ball powders might be best to start with, like H414, H335 and around 25gr. worth. Just a thought.

Check Lyman's handloading book "Cast Bullet Loading Manual" for ideas on cast bullet loads at low speeds. I've had mine since about 1975, so I don't know if it's still in print or perhaps something else has taken it's place.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
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Re: .458 Winchester Magnum Subsonic loads. [Re: DarylS]
      #125233 - 28/01/09 12:41 AM

Multiball loads were used by militaries during the BP days for military police purposes; riot control, etc and were commonly known in the USA as guard cartridges.

Speaking of barrel ringing. Make sure your load is "trail proof", meaning, rough handling will not allow space to develop between the RB's in the case. Always remember that what is workable at the range may fail or even become dangerous if kept in a gunbelt or pocket or pickup jockey box over time and subjected to knocks, vibrations, etc. A load that allows significant space to develop between the bullets can create "barrel obstruction"-type damage to the gun if one pellet sits right on the powder and the other pellet {-s} are a ways farther toward the mouth of the case and there is space between them.

Ditto if you have a poor crimp and the front bullet rolls into the lands and the other two are fired behind it.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26632
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: .458 Winchester Magnum Subsonic loads. [Re: 9.3x57]
      #125241 - 28/01/09 03:50 AM

I still use kapoc and dacron for holding small charges back against the primer, but have adopted Ross Seyfried's suggestion to FILL the space with the filler, ie: the internal space is filled to light compression (not hard compression, just light) with the filler so the filler cannot possibly cannot move.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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SharpsNitro
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Reged: 12/08/08
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Re: .458 Winchester Magnum Subsonic loads. [Re: DarylS]
      #125249 - 28/01/09 07:16 AM

Quote:

... It's the load I shot the 34 grouse with that fall - a few Tarmigan as well. They're just like pure white pigeons, but better tasting. At 25 yards, those little RN's make a 1/2" hole for accuracy so were perfect for head shots on grouse. ...




As an upland bird hunter I'll pretend not to have heard that. My hunting partner considers it to be sacriledge.


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