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Marrakai
.416 member

Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3482
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia

Crackers for the 9.5
#125045 - 25/01/09 02:31 AM

I took possession of the 'new' (to me!) M-1910 Mannlicher Schönauer before Christmas, but ended up pressed for time with family commitments etc, till now!

Grabbed some new unprimed .30-06 cases, and following the 'recipe' in George Nonte's cook-book I managed to fabricate some fine-looking fodder for load development.

Luckily a close friend had an old box of Hornady 270gr round-nose softs, so the first batch is now loaded and ready. Hopefully I'll get time to run them over the chrono in the next couple of days. Stay tuned.

Here's the process: .30-06 case, trimmed to 2.24-inch, deburred, neck expanded to ~.375 and shoulder pushed back for minimum headspace in my rifle, then neck-annealed.

And here's the jewelry:

Don't they look lovely! I'm gunna enjoy this!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

Edited by CptCurl (18/01/10 08:26 AM)

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peter
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Loc: denmark

Re: Crackers for the 9.5 [Re: Marrakai]
#125055 - 25/01/09 04:01 AM

hold on to the gun marrakai, the 9,5 has a reputation for being frisky. and yes they look very nice

cheers

peter

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DarylS
.700 member

Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26488
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: Crackers for the 9.5 [Re: peter]
#125062 - 25/01/09 08:34 AM

Tried to post earlier but the site went down - oh well.

Nice ctg. and good technique.

I used 8x57 RP brass for my 9.3x57 and got excellent results as there is no 'dreaded donut' left by the neck/shoudler junction when using the 8mm brass.

I necked up the brass to .42 cal, then down to hold the 9.3" bullet only until closing the bolt was stiff. This ensures 0 headspace, as you've done. My rifle had .019" headspace and should never have left the factory, but did. It shoots sub MOA with all bullet weights from 225 to 300. I use H4895 or BLC2 for all loads now.
If you want to PM me, I'll give you a run-down of the loads as H4895 has a direct relative in an ADI powder. They would work for medium pressure loads with identical bullet weigths in your 9.5 due to your larger bore. I was barely getting any case web expansion (.0005) and barely any case mouth expansion(same 1/2 thou.) with most of my loads and managed 2,200fps with 286gr. bullets, & 2,300fps with 270's from a M46 Husky with a M94 Mauser action.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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9.3x57
.450 member

Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5501
Loc: United States

Re: Crackers for the 9.5 [Re: DarylS]
#125077 - 25/01/09 01:13 PM

Marrakai:

I gotta follow this one! I'll be hunting vicariously thru you for a while when this one gets unlimbered!

My first critter shot with the 9.3x57 was a 1000 lb steer that "went native" after wolves ran it thru the fence. It and another lived like elk up the mountain and took several weeks to get close enough to to shoot. I used a really badly sized Hornady 270 grain Spire Point but man did it wreck that steer. 1st shot was about 70 yards, dropped like a rock and rolled toward me down the steep slope, flattening small trees and brush and bellowing the whole way. Next shot was at about 30 when it raised its head for a second. Both shots exited and internal damage was dramatic and extensive.

With modern powders, the 57mm case really comes into its own. You are REALLY going to like that 9.5!!

I will be interested to see what you think about the 9.5 M/S, especially if you start piling up trainloads of pigs and buff as you are wont to do!!

I wish I was there, bags full of 9.3x57 to compare with your 9.5...

Be careful of the 300 grain Hornady. It has acted like a FMJ in some of my testing. Sometimes it expands, sometimes it rivets and acts like a rivetted FMJ. I have a post here documenting the testing.

Like Daryl, I use 8x57 brass in my 9.3x57's.

Your little jewels look like just that! Nice job!

Keep us posted!!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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Marrakai
.416 member

Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3482
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia

Re: Crackers for the 9.5 [Re: 9.3x57]
#125116 - 25/01/09 11:26 PM

Took the M-1910 to the range today with a few developmental loads for the chronograph. I used ADI's AR-2206 powder for this sequence, as it worked best in my near-identical .444/.375 Lee Enfield loads.

Starting light with 42gr and working up to 46gr, results were as follows:

42gr -> 1870 fps
44gr -> 1950 fps
45gr -> 2015 fps
46gr -> 2070 fps

Extreme spread was high at the lowest load, but tightened up nicely at the higher loads.
Obviously I still have a ways to go though. Factory MV is published as 2150 fps with the 270gr bullet, and in the full-length rifle barrel I was hoping for at least that figure. Pressure was still mild though, so a couple more grains of powder shouldn't hurt.
If it starts to look a bit stiff, I'll change to AR2208 (Varget), but that would be slower than necessary I believe.

BTW Daryl, AR2206 is very close to the H4895 you recommend, which is actually rebadged AR2206H. AR2206H is only 1% to 2% slower than AR2206. Also, I think AR2206 may no longer be manufactured by ADI, being completely replaced by AR2206H? Someone mentioned this recently. When my 4kg kegs run dry I will have to come to grips with this circumstance!

I have been reading the posts on the 9x57 and 9.3 x 57 and can now understand why it is such a well-respected hunting cartridge. I'm privelaged to join your ranks, gentlemen.

...and yes, peter, the rifle is indeed frisky but quite manageable with these loads so far. One of my friends has a 9.5 carbine, and that gets your attention!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

Edited by CptCurl (18/01/10 08:28 AM)

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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5501
Loc: United States

Re: Crackers for the 9.5 [Re: Marrakai]
#125122 - 26/01/09 01:26 AM

Marrakai, what are your plans for hunting with this rifle?

Shooting .375 bullets at the lower speeds can be dicey due to construction parameters geared around the .375 H&H Mag. After the failure of the 300 in my testing, I called some of the manufacturers about various .375 conventional bullets and most seem to be designed for expansion down to about 1800 fps, which, of course, is an estimate based on what is hit and of course, is an estimate. Our "x57's" start a few hundred feet above that or so, so we don't have a lot of room for slowdown. My experience with the Hornady 225 this past hunting season {sized down of course} leads me to believe it is one of the best for these little cases. That 270 Hornady really looks like a winner, too.

The issue with the 300 Interlock seems to be as follows: The ogive of the jacket rounds the nose and seems to be Hornady's method to slow down expansion. But it requires in my testing something over 2000 fps to do this reliably. Intrerestingly, this bullet is NOT a very sturdy bullet when shot from the .375 H&H Mag and once it starts to open, really lets go fast. GETTING it to open shot from a x57 case is a different matter; sometimes it dows and sometimes not. The design of the 270 RN looks different. That plus higher start speed should make it a winner I think. "Tricking" the bullets on the 300 make it a really great quick opener, too. My so tricked weight 296 grains and would make for really fine deer bullets.

That 270 Hornady Spire Point still has my attention, tho I have used it on only a little game. I shot clean thru a zebra with one in the .375 and have used it on impala and deer, and sized down on that steer in 9.3. I say my attention, because it opened up and acted much like a controlled expansion bullet in the 9.3. It looks like the 225, only a bit longer. I need to get some more and test them. Maybe sized down they'd work super well in my 9.3x62 carbine, too...

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26488
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: Crackers for the 9.5 [Re: 9.3x57]
#125143 - 26/01/09 06:11 AM

I agree - that 270gr. SP, at the lower speeds of the 57mm case should act like a premium bullet. I don't like boat-tails except for target shooting so we won't go there, ie: Speer and Sierra

The 270 SP is the bullet used by my hunting buddy in his .375 H&H Guide gun - a stainless & plastic Savage. It puts 5, 270gr. SP's into sub 6/10's" every time at 100 meters off the bags at a velocity of 2,540fps. Yes, it's slow for a H&H, but the accuracy & penetration is why he loads it there. He's had to shoot 3 or 4 wounded bears and about 8 wounded moose so far, with this rifle. Every time he pulls the trigger, the animal goes down - right now. Keith always centres the heaviest bone he can and usually gets an exit, but not always. When they don't exit, they're perfect for framing. Hornady would probably love to have them for add's but then, probably everyone who uses them, has such beautifully expanded bullets. They are that good. Keith's shooting is usually close rarely over 100 yards and perhaps farthest at 200yard max so the lower velocity helps performance.

Reduced to 2,300fps, which I'm sure can happen in the 9.5x57, they should do good work on all heavy game, buffalo included - as a soft.,

I'd like to get my hands on some of the seemingly now discontinued 270gr. RN's. Elmer always spoke well of them, saying they penetrated better than the 300's. I have both 300RN and 270RN sectioned - might dig them out and take a picture for posting - yes - that's a good idea - later - today.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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DarylS
.700 member

Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26488
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: Crackers for the 9.5 [Re: DarylS]
#125150 - 26/01/09 07:28 AM

OK-= here's a few sectioned bullets. The right hand 3 were expanded slightly to better show the thickness of jacket with the lead still in them.
: right to left:

1/. - 220gr. Hornady -note the fairly heavy jacket. I've taken two moose with this one - a big cow - 1 1/2 steps after impact & dropped - bullet went through onside leg, double lunged and under hide off side - perfectly expanded to jsut above crimp groove - initial velocity 1,940fps - range 95 yards. 2nd was a bull moose, same load @ 75 yards, bullet entered at 4th rib back, paunch, liver and right lung -bullet perfectly expanded in right shoulder.
2/. - 235gr. Speer - note is a bit hard for 2,00fps, but should be great for the 9.5x57 @ about 2,400fps+
3/. - 225 hornady 9.3x57 noted - he's shot 2 deer with it along with fairly extensive penetrative testing on media - good heavy jacket and over 2 feet of penetration on length-wise shots hitting behind last rib. should be a goood bullet for the 9.5x57 at 2,550fps to 2,600fps.
4/. - old style 270gr. RN Elmer Keith spoke well of in comparrison to the 300gr. RN.
5/. - 300gr. RN Interlock - it appears this bullet's jacket should allow more controlled expansion than it gives - interesting. I didn't section a 300gr. Interbond- that should be a good bullet for higher speed .375's.
6/. - 270gr. Spire point - excellent bullet, deep penetration at 2,550fps - would be a good 'heavy' expanding bullet for the 9.5x57 @ 2,300fps+
7/. - 300gr. Barnes .049" jacket spire point - great bullet for full power loads in H&H. Accurate

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by CptCurl (18/01/10 08:29 AM)

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bpesteve
.300 member

Reged: 18/11/03
Posts: 106
Loc: Sunset side up

Re: Crackers for the 9.5 [Re: DarylS]
#125169 - 26/01/09 03:03 PM

The 270 Hornady RN interlock started at 2000 fps in a .375 2-1/2" doesn't expand reliably out at 100 yards, though the small bison that took one broadside through the neck/spine junction this past fall would argue the point. Small entrance, lucky spine hit, no exit. Yummy food.

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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5501
Loc: United States

Re: Crackers for the 9.5 [Re: bpesteve]
#125170 - 26/01/09 03:29 PM

Daryl, GREAT post. It demonstrates the curved-in jacket portion of the Horn 300 RN at the meplat that curves IN and rivets, instead of peeling back and expanding as a "mushroom"...sometimes...

Bpsteve, thanks; question. You say the 270 did not expand at 2000 muzzle velocity?

Can you post a pic of the recovered bullet?

How much critter {inches, estimated} would it have had to go to exit? Hit the spine and did not expand?

Seems like on most broadside shots a 270/.375 that doesn't expand would exit.

Not doubting you in any way, just disecting this thing to see what the problem & solution is.

As mentioned above, most .375 bullets are designed for H&H Mag velocities, not 57mm case speeds.

The 57mm case generates significantly higher velocities than the .375 Winchester, but not nearly so high as that generated by the H&H Mag. This is the challenge for all shooters of the .375 bullets the Mauser & Mannlicher 57mm cases, obviously.

Since bullet "tricking" is easy {HP's, Flat Pointing, etc}, there are no worries about it, except that the problem must be identified before game is shot.

All this goes for .375 Velopex Brit, 9.5 Mannlicher and .375 Win shooters {Ruger No. 3's} and of course 9.3x57 shooters who use .375 bullets sized down as I have.

A peek at Daryl's perfect pictures shows the difference between the 300RN and 270RN bullet jackets. Take that 300 jacket off to a similar configuration demonstrated by the 270 as I showed in a previous post {tip grinding} and you get a great medium game bullet of 296 grains.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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Marrakai
.416 member

Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3482
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia

Re: Crackers for the 9.5 [Re: 9.3x57]
#125184 - 27/01/09 01:02 AM

Thanks for the great info Daryl.
Sectioned bullets can really tell us a lot about expected terminal performance.

I doubt that any more 270gr RN Hornadys will be forthcoming in Australia, so I will be onto Woodleighs after load development and case-forming is completed. Haven't checked yet, but assume the Woodleigh 270gr RN is designed for the .375 Nitro Express, so expected velocity should be quite a bit less than for the H&H cartridges. Those bullets should have a thin jacket and will be bonded-core of course. They will be my hunting loads.

9.3x57:
I'm hoping to develop loads that are buffalo-capable, with care. They will get a field-trip or two during this coming dry season.

BTW, I should add that the Mannlicher Schönauer has the rotary spindle magazine, and works best with 270gr RN bullets. Haven't tried it yet, but I may not have the option of different bullet lengths, or even different ogive shapes, with that rifle.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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9.3x57
.450 member

Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5501
Loc: United States

Re: Crackers for the 9.5 [Re: Marrakai]
#125185 - 27/01/09 01:07 AM

Quote:

9.3x57:
I'm hoping to develop loads that are buffalo-capable, with care. They will get a field-trip or two during this coming dry season.

Chompin' at the bit read the results of this!

I'm guessing if you find the right bullets you will really like that gun & cartridge!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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DarylS
.700 member

Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26488
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: Crackers for the 9.5 [Re: 9.3x57]
#125187 - 27/01/09 02:34 AM

Jacket wall thickness is only part of the equation in bullet strength. Strength and hardness of material makes or breaks the bullet, so to speak. In looking at the 300gr. RN, the jacket appears it would be super tough, just as the Spire point seems to produce at even higher speeds, yet it is a much 'softer' bullet on game.

I'd try those Taipans or whatever they're called, in Australia - suppose to be a very soft bullet. I'm not suggesting them for buffalo, but maybe deer and pigs? Too, they're cheaper for plinking, I'd imagine. A bonded Woodleigh might just be the ticket for the really heavy game at the 9.5 x 57mm's lower speeds, perhaps it would be a cross between a soft and solid, depending on what it hit. At very low speeds in the 2,100fps range, that also seems to be the 'action' of the 300gr. Hornady RN.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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ChrisPer
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Reged: 12/05/08
Posts: 235
Loc: Australia

Re: Crackers for the 9.5 [Re: DarylS]
#125230 - 28/01/09 12:01 AM

I first used 270gn RN Woodleighs, then 270gn Hornady in my 1910 rifle. Got the Hornady a few years ago and sorry to hear they are not still being produced because they were pretty economical compared with Woodleigh. With 42gn AR2206, it gave 1860-1875 fps (only fired 2 shots over a friends chronograph). I plan to raise my charge to 44n to try and get the 2150 or so touted in COTW. I just got a Lee crimp die for .375 H&H to cut down for it too.

My brass is Winchester 30-06 and I bought the RCBS reforming die set and loading die set from Huntingtons. I also have 3 packets left of FMJ Kynoch, kept for collecto value, though I fired the last 1/2 packet to test it at Cleveland when I bought it.

I haven't shot game with it, but bullets recovered from wet sand have expanded quite satisfactorily even at the lower velocity.

Hold onto it? At those speeds my 1910 is far, far more comfortable to shoot than a full .308 or 30-06 load even though it weighs very little. Last time I fired it, the first 2 shots were fired by a 12-year old waif of a girl, who wouldn't let her brother beat her if she could help it. After the first shot I asked if she wanted another and she smiled and nodded 'Yes!' I offered shots to many at the AHN day at Perth Field Rifle Club last year, and it was universally agreed to be sweet to shoot.

I will add that (sadly) it has a recoil pad, not the original steel buttplate. I got the rifle at Hunters Paradise in Harare for a reasonable price, as it was in pretty ordinary condition. I pissed off the 1970s US-style pad toot sweet and put on an English style solid one.

I remember seeing my first sight of a Mannlicher carbine at Darwin SSAA in 1981, the owner demonstrated the bolt closing to lock from just tilting the barrel down 20 degrees with the trigger held. Mine is not so smooth, and doesn't feed perfectly either. (The owner also showed a couple of smallbore doubles, maybe a .22 Savage Hi-Power and 7x57, possibly Hollands? 1981 was a while back, and I wondered if it were you Marrakai)

Edited by ChrisPer (28/01/09 12:13 AM)

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bpesteve
.300 member

Reged: 18/11/03
Posts: 106
Loc: Sunset side up

Re: Crackers for the 9.5 [Re: ChrisPer]
#125242 - 28/01/09 03:52 AM

On the 270 Hornady RN at 2000 fps mv:

I'm sorry to say that I wasn't very thorough retrieving that 270 grain bullet from the bison. The entrance wound was pretty much a half-inch hole through the scapula and the bison, maybe a year and a half old and 400 pounds or so, dropped immediately at the shot and couldn't stand though it wasn't killed. Under the scapula the wound wasn't much larger and under the off-side scapula there was no evidence of a wound. It was a full broadside shot so the spine was maybe six to eight inches from the surface at most - I should have been more observant and persistent in digging out the bullet.

I can't complain about the result, a bison in the freezer, but if the shot had been placed through the lungs I doubt that it would have expanded and probably would have made for a long chase. I won't be using that bullet at that speed on game again.

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DarylS
.700 member

Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26488
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: Crackers for the 9.5 [Re: bpesteve]
#125244 - 28/01/09 04:28 AM

TKS, Steve - Elmer noted in print in Am.Rifleman or G&A years ago, that the 270 was tougher than the 300. If this still holds true, as mfgring changes with time, then perhaps we need 2,300fps plus for consistant results. Lead and guilding metal is all that's needed for these relatively low velocity rounds. The harder to expand expamples like the 270RN, 270SP and 300gr.RN then become the 'premium' bullets, while the softer ones like the Privi's and 225SP's are the normal bread and butter bullets.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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kamilaroi
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Reged: 18/12/04
Posts: 1803
Loc: sydney, new south wales, Austr...

Re: Crackers for the 9.5 [Re: DarylS]
#125252 - 28/01/09 08:42 AM

Marrakai,

Re the Woodleigh recommended performance envelope for the 270gn bullet. I have used Hornady 270RN since '86 in my MS 1910 and the loads I chrono'ed up to 45gns of 3031 match yours in AR2206 to within 20fps.

I only use Woodleighs in the field and recently bought a new box. Specs for 270gn Weldcore RN SN are an SD of .274 and BC of .250. Recommended impact velocity is 1900- 2400fps. Therefore it looks like the maximum performance range in the MS is abt 150 yards.

Geoff Macdonald mentioned years ago that there is a slight waist to the pills in keeping with pommy practice. I don't know if this is still the case.

BTW another recommended not to use the 300 grainers as the stock may be prone to splitting due to age.

Hope this helps.

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Marrakai
.416 member

Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3482
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia

Re: Crackers for the 9.5 [Re: kamilaroi]
#125281 - 28/01/09 02:39 PM

Thanks for this additional info, gentlemen. All very much appreciated.

ChrisPer and kamilaroi, are your M-1910s rifles or carbines? Mine is a rifle. This would account for at least 100 fps difference in MV, maybe more. I know my friend here in Darwin, Brian D_, can't get 2000 fps out of his 9.5 carbine, and likewise I cannot reach 2000 fps in my little 6.5 with 160gr RNs either.

Regarding the Hornady 270gr RN, I have noticed that the bullets I'm loading have a bunch of barely-visible parallel 'fractures' around the ogive, which would obviously help them open up quickly. In Elmer's day, that bullet may have been a horse of a different colour.

...and I loaded another 10 last night, up to 47gr AR2206 this time. I'll keep you posted...

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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kamilaroi
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Posts: 1803
Loc: sydney, new south wales, Austr...

Re: Crackers for the 9.5 [Re: Marrakai]
#125288 - 28/01/09 05:25 PM

Mate,

Mine is a take down rifle retailed through A&N CSL (cased with all the bits). It really is a safe queen (100% factory blue/grey and an unmarked boltface when I got it) but I persist in field use with due care.

My remaining Hornady pills are circa 1995 and the ogive is quite different to Woodleighs, more toward a demi/hemi/semi spire point (music joke). The few 300gn Hornadys I loaded at 43 gns of AR2206 and same of 3031 but I wouldn't use 300grn pills at 43gns 3031/AR2206 again due to stock issues as noted. (and a noticeable increase in recoil: with steel buttplate). Using the MK Ia "bugger me meter" I'd call it at 35ft/lbs of recoil. The few Hornadys left have no sign of "parallel flaws" you speak of.

If you load AR2206 at 47gns PLEASE think of the stock splitting issues. An old gunsmith fella (Ron Black?, no pun intended) inferred that 45-46gn was tops but this was many moons ago and powders are much more temperature resistant (Mulwex that is).

My take is that they are great pig and sambar rifles but larger beasties are at the user's discretion.

Take care.

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DarylS
.700 member

Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26488
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: Crackers for the 9.5 [Re: kamilaroi]
#125319 - 29/01/09 02:36 AM

Good point about stock issues in thin stocks - a proper glass bedding may be in order if this is an issue.
Couple methods I use on heavy kickers is to relieve the recoil lug area to allow a thin, 1/8" steel plate to be glass bedded in that area, side to side and top of the recoil plate to bottom. I cross-hatch the rear of the plate to get a good bond against the wood - even to drilling holes through it. Another method is to cut a groove across the top of recoil plate's wood in the stock, and set in glass, crosswise, a section of threaded rod (piece fo screw or screw stock) about 10x24 thread. This would be 1/2 way behind the recoil face there the action's recoil lug, then the action's recoil area is bed to the action in normal fashion. The rear tang is also bed in glass & can be relieved at the rear, or not, as if bed properly, the action cannot move back to split the tang. The only way a tang can split,is if the action moves under recoil - properly bed, there is no movement.

If there is a steel tube runing top to bottom at the rear gaurd screww, it should be removed as it can be a stock splitter if not solidly bed. If it is roughed up and classed into the rear screw hold in the same manner as a pillar bedded device, it is OK to leave. Antoher way is to gring the steel tube down to be below both top and bottom wood surfaces if one wishes to leave it, but it is not needed in that area. Both screws should not touch any surface, front, sides or rear for best accuracy. To avoid wood compression, glass bedding top and bottom cures that possibility.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Marrakai
.416 member

Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3482
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia

Re: Crackers for the 9.5 [Re: DarylS]
#125352 - 29/01/09 02:18 PM

Gentlemen:
The rifle is a take-down so in effect it has a huge de facto bedding-block for the rear tang. Also, the stock appears to be a very good early Brit replacement, in that it is not checkered, and the receiver-ring and part of the barrel channel is bedded. The wood is quite dense also, and offers no cause for concern over cracking. Nevertheless, I don't plan to exceed 47gr AR2206, but hope to creep over 2100 fps at least by a little bit.

Another local 9.5MS-owner I spoke to yesterday said that he quit adding AR2208 when he got to 2100 fps, purely because of recoil. His rifle may be a little lighter than mine, though. I guess I should weigh mine at some stage...

...and yes, I know, photos too!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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ChrisPer
.300 member

Reged: 12/05/08
Posts: 235
Loc: Australia

Re: Crackers for the 9.5 [Re: Marrakai]
#125368 - 29/01/09 07:35 PM

Mine is a rifle. You can see a couple of brass dots in the stock. These are from a repair by Walter Roth in Harare, as the stock had a fine split inside he squeezed epoxy into the crack and braced it wiht th ebrass screws, then ground them flush. The target was offhand at 25m, I was quite pleased with the results as I tried 3 different sight pictures 2 shots each. The expanded projie is a Hornady and it stopped in wet sand.

Oh, the filthy case necks come from trying some Westcastings coated 220gn cast bullets. They squirted out before the neck expanded, giving a faceful of gas and black case necks. I tried faster and faster powders and fillers but it was no good and I stopped using the cast bullets. Hence my interest in crimp dies - for another try!

Left: Woodleigh 270gn bought about 2003, centre Kynoch, right Hornady 270gn bought about 2004.

Edited by CptCurl (18/01/10 08:48 AM)

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DarylS
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Re: Crackers for the 9.5 [Re: ChrisPer]
#125384 - 30/01/09 01:54 AM

Cool! - I've got a couple boxes of Kynoch 9mm Mauser rounds here, look pretty much identical to those, of course, but with soft points.

Love those split-bridge Mannlichers.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Marrakai
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Re: Crackers for the 9.5 [Re: DarylS]
#126301 - 09/02/09 01:25 AM

Back to the range today to try the 47-grain loads.
Changed caps to Federal 206 to better see early pressure signs in the form of flattened primers, so repeated the 46-grain load.

46gr AR2206 = 2095 fps.
47gr AR2206 = 2133 fps.

I think I'll settle on the 47gr load for now, although primers are still well-rounded rather than flattened, and although 'noticeable' recoil is still quite manageable.
I see Pato is doing good work with 46gr AR2206H in his 9.5 MS down the track.

Anyway, time to bomb-up a bunch of rounds for accuracy testing next!

BTW ChrisPer, the guy in Darwin may have been Rob B_, he had a couple of MSs and a couple of Savage 99s among other things, as well as quite a few nice doubles. He now lives in North Queensland, but spends a lot of time travelling. Passes through Darwin once or twice a year as his daughter and her family still live here.
The other possibility with those rifles is Kurt M_, but he has an obvious Kraut accent. I don't!

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Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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DarylS
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Re: Crackers for the 9.5 [Re: Marrakai]
#126312 - 09/02/09 03:07 AM

I take it, AR2006 is H4895 - or perhaps Varget due to the slightly reduced velocties from what H4895 gives in my 9.3x57?

I think you'll be happy with the 2,133fps/300gr.RN load on heavy game.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Marrakai
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Re: Crackers for the 9.5 [Re: DarylS]
#126396 - 09/02/09 02:37 PM

From my earlier post in this thread:

Quote:

BTW Daryl, AR2206 is very close to the H4895 you recommend, which is actually rebadged AR2206H. AR2206H is only 1% to 2% slower than AR2206. Also, I think AR2206 may no longer be manufactured by ADI, being completely replaced by AR2206H? Someone mentioned this recently.

Varget is re-badged ADI AR2208, by the way.

Also, I'm using 270gr RN bullets as this was the bullet-weight used in all factory-loads as far as I can determine. The recoil and stock-cracking issues would only be exacerbated by the extra bullet weight of a 300-grainer, although I agree the additional terminal ballistics would not go astray when tackling buffalo.

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Marrakai
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9.3x57
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Re: Crackers for the 9.5 [Re: Marrakai]
#126400 - 09/02/09 03:04 PM

I'm sure you will, but I look forward to a report on the 9.5x57 and buffalo.

All wound tracking assessments would be very interesting indeed.

The 57mm case offers a tremendous amount of killing power for very little recoil.

'Can't wait!

BTW: 46 grains of milsurp IMR 4895 gave me 2051 fps with sized down Hornady 270 Spire Point in my 9.3x57 with 24" bbl.

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Marrakai
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Re: Crackers for the 9.5 [Re: 9.3x57]
#127017 - 14/02/09 07:50 PM

Just took a couple of photos to try to show the 'fractures' around the ogive of my Hornady 270gr RN bullets. This one shows it up fairly well:

BTW, I think that is what is visible inside the jackets of the sectioned Hornadys in Daryl's earlier post. They would certainly aid in quick opening at the lower velocities we're talking about here. Time to test the theory on our local bovines, if only this damn rain would stop!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

Edited by CptCurl (18/01/10 08:42 AM)

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Marrakai
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Re: Crackers for the 9.5 [Re: Marrakai]
#129034 - 08/03/09 11:22 PM

Just to finish this thread off, I finally found the time to shoot the 9.5 for accuracy today.

Needless to say, it didn't disappoint!

I settled on 47gr AR2206 with the 270gr Hornady RNs.
Three-shot groups at 50 metres with the open express sights were all around an inch, biggest was maybe 1 1/4 inch.
Best was the first group fired, before drifting foresight to the left a few thou:

The group now falls directly over the Ten-X, and I'm ready for a serious hunt. Bring on the dry season!

ps: Hope the 270gr Woodleighs shoot to the same POI, haven't received them yet.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

Edited by CptCurl (18/01/10 08:42 AM)

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DarylS
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Re: Crackers for the 9.5 [Re: Marrakai]
#129049 - 09/03/09 03:13 AM

Quite posssibly, a change in bullet mfg. will not change POI - especially with .375's.

If I recall correctly, AR2206 is just barely slightly faster than AR2206H. Your 47.0gr. of AR2206 should bring it in line closely with my 9.3x57 load of 48.5gr. H4895. Worked on a Moose last fall at 200 yards!

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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GG375
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Re: Crackers for the 9.5 [Re: DarylS]
#129221 - 10/03/09 09:51 PM

Nice group Tony.

GG

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kuduae
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Re: Crackers for the 9.5 [Re: GG375]
#150997 - 18/01/10 06:19 AM

I think I jazzed up the 9.5x57 M-S a bit.So my experiences with the 270gr Hornady differ from those reported by others. My 1910 is a rifle with a 20" barrel, see photo, apparently a factory option. Granted, it is not in perfect condition externally, but I got it for free. An old friend salvaged it from the junkpile of a museum! and gave it to me, together with the barreled action of a M-S M1900. The pre-WW2 Zeiss Zielvier scope also was a present by a guy who did not need such an outmoded thing anymore. The claw-mount parts I found in my well-assorted junkbox. Well, I had to pay for the British sling many years ago in a small shop in London Southwark named Rigby's...
http://i1018.photobucket.com/albums/af303/kuduae/2010_01170002.jpg
It may not be a beauty anymore, but it works. I made my cases from W-W 30-06 brass, as these had most capacity. I load them with 270gr Hornady interlock roundnoses, still have 5 boxes in stock. Primer S&B lr. Powder charge 55gr VV N140, slowly dribbled in through a 6" funnel, a full capacity load, but not compressed. My Shooter's Chrony tells they are leaving at 2318fps. At this starting velocity the Hornadies surely open up on our smallish game, out to 160 meters, did not shoot farther yet. On roe deer they work almost too brutal, about like a .300 magnum load. Foxes are nearly blown up. They are perfect on boar, saving tracking time at less-than-perfect hits, providing a good blood spoor. In short, a near perfect hunting load for woods hunting in central Europe, providing plenty of reserve power. And, this is what the 9.5x57 was designed for a hundred years ago in 1910!

--------------------
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Edited by kuduae (18/01/10 06:20 AM)

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Re: Crackers for the 9.5 [Re: kuduae]
#150999 - 18/01/10 06:37 AM

the barrel length is very unusual but a 9,5x56 MS isnt easy to find here anymore. scope with claw mount is 100%political correct( same I have for my Mosin project)!
I think that the 9,5x56 was intended for the british market. Why? its the only .375 diameter nitro cartridge from continental europe. there are a lot of 9,5mm target rounds and also the 9,5x60R Mauser but after nitro powder hiting the gun shop the 9,5mm diameter was becoming obsolet. not in britain where the 375NE 2,5" is so close in power to the 375 2 1/4NE and also shoting the same bullet weight that I believe the mannlicher cartridge was developt as the rimless version.

Edited by CptCurl (18/01/10 08:43 AM)

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Sarg
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Re: Crackers for the 9.5 [Re: kuduae]
#151002 - 18/01/10 08:29 AM

Kuduae , I think that is one of the best looking 1910's I have seen , one you can use with all the bit's on it & not be afraid fall over with it .

I love those powerful Carbines !

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xausa
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Re: Crackers for the 9.5 [Re: kuduae]
#151004 - 18/01/10 09:16 AM

Kuduae,

Is that a Lyman cocking piece sight, and if so, was it already there or did you install it? I have one I would like to install on one of my M/S rifles, but I lack the special "nut" that Lyman used to sell with the pre-cut dovetail. I suppose I could braze an extension onto the nut and attach the sight to it, but I would prefer not to, if there is an alternative.

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kuduae
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Re: Crackers for the 9.5 [Re: xausa]
#151012 - 18/01/10 10:38 AM

Xausa: No, it is a windage-adjustable Parker-Hale "Sportarget" peepsight, see the 1940 Shooters Bible p.209. It is indeed brazed to the standard M-S firing pin nut. Better than the Lyman #1 on my Gibbs, Bristol M95 6.5x53R aka .256 Mannlicher, as it clicks for both w & e. It came on the rifle. On other rifles, I have substituted these by altering another P-H model, the #16 made for target rifles once and available at gunshows sometimes, same elevation stem, and brazing those to Mauser and M-S nuts. On my Gibbs the Lyman sight is mounted in a dovetail filed into an original nut with the firing pin shortened accordingly. Same for a Rigby peepsight on the long nut of a commercial Mauser.
Lancaster: IMHO you are only right in part. There was an identical case before 1910: In the 1904 DWM catalog the 9.4x56 aka 9.55x56 is listed, case #393. A very heavy 25.7g =396gr rn solid bullet #156 of .378" diameter is listed for this case.
There may have been other reasons for Steyr to go to a 9.5mm cartridge: They needed a proprietary chambering of their own, competitive with their German competitor Mauser's 9.3mm'rs. Of course, it had to be different enough, so that it was not to compared not as easily as their former 9x56M-S and 8x56M-S offerings that were obviously inferior ballistically to the similar-named Mauser cartridges. They needed such a cartridge not only for export, but also for domestic use. Remember, in 1910 the Austro-Hungarian empire spanned from (now) Italy to Ukraina and Poland to Bosnia. It included the wildest and best hunting grounds in Europe, like the Carpathian mountains, thrieving with bears, huge stags and 800 pound wild boars. As the 9.5x57M-S is a little bit "light" for really big African game, I think they intended it for use on their domestic big game.

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Sarg
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Re: Crackers for the 9.5 [Re: kuduae]
#151055 - 18/01/10 10:14 PM

Yes , I was eyeing up my PH16 sight & thinking I could mate it to my Lee Speed bolt head some how !

could you please show a close up of it & the other sights , in the way they a fixed ?

Cheers !

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kuduae
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Re: Crackers for the 9.5 [Re: Sarg]
#151114 - 19/01/10 08:32 AM

xausa and Sarg: Have posted photos in the "Classic rifles" forum. Look for "cocking piece aperture sights".

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German foresters: We like sustainability! For merely 300 years by 2013.

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lawndart
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Re: Crackers for the 9.5 [Re: kuduae]
#155645 - 06/03/10 04:19 PM

I will check to see if I have any of my .375", 270 grain Hornady RN pills left from the days with my 1910.

If so, I will send them down Marrakai.

lawndart

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DarylS
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Re: Crackers for the 9.5 [Re: Marrakai]
#155660 - 07/03/10 01:07 AM

Quote:

Just took a couple of photos to try to show the 'fractures' around the ogive of my Hornady 270gr RN bullets. This one shows it up fairly well:

BTW, I think that is what is visible inside the jackets of the sectioned Hornadys in Daryl's earlier post. They would certainly aid in quick opening at the lower velocities we're talking about here. Time to test the theory on our local bovines, if only this damn rain would stop!

The 270gr., pre-interlock era was well known to produce deeper penetration than the 300gr. RN. It will be interesting to find out how they fair at around 2,100fps. I suspect they'll be fine on a big ungulate, but might be too stiff yet, for deer. Only shooting & tracign the wound channel will tell.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Kiwi_bloke
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Re: Crackers for the 9.5 [Re: DarylS]
#158110 - 02/04/10 08:24 PM

Using H4895, I can put three 260 Nosler Accubonds into a 3/4" group from a take-down M1910 in 9,5x57 MS. They register 2257 ft/sec at 10 ft. They feed well and the mildly compressed load has a Standard Devation that hovers around 9-14. Recoil is keen with a steel butt-plate.

These Accubonds have a good BC at .473 which means that with a MV of 2250 they maintain 1800 ft/sec out to 275 yards. Nosler's 260 grain partitions, however, have a BC of .314 so at the same MV they only maintain 1800 ft/sec out to 175 yards. So the Accubonds reliably open about as far as I'd care to shoot this old timer with open sights.

The brass I use is Norma 9,3x57 which I run through the RCBS 9,5x57 F.L. dies. I have used R-P .30-06 brass.

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