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rlang
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Reged: 22/01/09
Posts: 20
Loc: ny
loading data for 10.75x65r collath??
      #124838 - 22/01/09 11:57 AM

Hello
I have a double rifle drilling in 10.75x65r collath. I was looking for load data on this round. Does anyone know if this round was loaded with blackpowder or smokeless?
thks

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Pivi
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Reged: 12/05/08
Posts: 36
Loc: italy
Re: loading data for 10.75x65r collath?? [Re: rlang]
      #124986 - 24/01/09 02:18 AM

Collath cartridges originated during the first years of the 20th century and were loaded with soft points bullets.
According to me they were loaded with smokeless powders

I have a loading data only ( handloader's manual of cartridge conversions,J.J. Donnelly)

Lead bullet - .424" / 305 grains
41,3 grains of IMR3031 , using cases formed from 45 Basic brass

Handloading forum guys would probably be more helpful than me

--------------------
Proud to be Furlan pividori.marco@gmail.com

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rlang
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Reged: 22/01/09
Posts: 20
Loc: ny
Re: loading data for 10.75x65r collath?? [Re: Pivi]
      #125007 - 24/01/09 08:40 AM

thks for the info.

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Oleg
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Reged: 12/12/08
Posts: 26
Loc: Latvia, Riga
Re: loading data for 10.75x65r collath?? [Re: rlang]
      #126814 - 13/02/09 01:04 AM

Dear rland,

I have two 10.75x65R Collath (Grundig) cartriges with soft point bullets in my collection.
Cases are without headstamps, so the producer is unknown, but i suppose that it may be Sellier&Bellot (Chechoslovakia).

Data:
Base diameter 12.35 mm (0.486)
Rim Diameter 13.86 mm (0.546)
Neck diameter 11.30 mm (0.445)
Bullet diametr 10.695 mm (0.421)
Bullet length 24.5 mm (0.965)
Case length 64.7 mm (2.547)
Cartridge length 87.0 mm (3.425)

Bullet weight 19.0 gramm (297 grein)
Powder weight 3.97 gramm (62 grein)

Powder type is unknown, but I suppose that it may be russian BT-powder. It's burning rate is more or less similar to Vihtavuori N 140.

Cases for this cartridge still produce the Bertram company in Australia.

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Pivi
.224 member


Reged: 12/05/08
Posts: 36
Loc: italy
Re: loading data for 10.75x65r collath?? [Re: Oleg]
      #127014 - 14/02/09 07:32 PM

What's the title of the book you took those scans from?


Collath primers must be of berdan type on original cartridges.
Your rounds look like being made from another case.The darker ring on the base could be the sign left by a full lenght die.So they also could be reloads of original cases

--------------------
Proud to be Furlan pividori.marco@gmail.com

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Oleg
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Reged: 12/12/08
Posts: 26
Loc: Latvia, Riga
Re: loading data for 10.75x65r collath?? [Re: Pivi]
      #127281 - 16/02/09 07:54 PM

Dear Pivi,
I don’t know the title of that book. I only have two pages copied from another forum on the web.

The primer is berdan.
Of course the brass possibly was made from another brass. Very few number of brass may be suitable for that operation in this cartridge. It may be 45 Basic.
I am sure that the cartridges have been loaded in non fired brass. Brass have been made at cartridge factory (with appropriate equipment) but not by amateur reloader with handtools.

I suppose it may be “Sellier & Bellot” (former Chechoslovakia). I know that “S&B” never produce 10.75x65R as a regular product. But they produced 10.75x68 Mauser in 1950-60-ties (with berdan primer). Possibly they made 10.75x65R as small (subformal) series, so without headstamps.



This is the image (not my - from the web) of 10.75x65R Grundig (Collath) with Utendorffer-Nurenberg headstamp anf FMJ bullet. The bullet not seems very light comparative versus 19.0 gramm bullets in my cartridges.





Edited by Oleg (16/02/09 08:15 PM)

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Pivi
.224 member


Reged: 12/05/08
Posts: 36
Loc: italy
Re: loading data for 10.75x65r collath?? [Re: Oleg]
      #127309 - 17/02/09 01:14 AM

Since your cartridges are Berdan primed,they are original rounds.
I have never seen a 45 Basic case with Berdan primer yet.

Maybe special order cartridges?The bullet looks very much "east european" to me,so you are probably right with your identification of the maker

--------------------
Proud to be Furlan pividori.marco@gmail.com

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Oleg
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Reged: 12/12/08
Posts: 26
Loc: Latvia, Riga
Re: loading data for 10.75x65r collath?? [Re: Pivi]
      #127448 - 18/02/09 08:22 PM

Dear Pivi,
May be You know something about 11x65R ?
Not 11.15x65R LK, or 11.15x65R Collath (!).

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WBD
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Reged: 19/02/09
Posts: 5
Loc: NZ
Re: loading data for 10.75x65r collath?? [Re: Oleg]
      #127538 - 19/02/09 06:36 PM

I cannot read this forum thread without correcting an issue re the 10.75x65R Collath and 10.75x65R Gründig cartridges. These are not the same cartridge.

What you have shown here is the 10.75x65R Gründig. It is one of a scarce series of four similar slightly tapered cartridges of 45, 52, 60 and 65mm case length with a c12.4mm base. All of these were originally produced with an H.Utendoerffer hs.

The 10.75x65R Collath is an extremely rare cartridge that is slightly necked, has a “W.COLLATH FRANKFURT a/O” hs and has a 11.9mm base. It is a necked version of the 11.15x65R Collath/ 11.15x65 “LK” case.

This confusion has arisen from Fred Datig listing a 10.75x65R in his book “Cartridges for Collectors” Volume One (ie the image in this forum) as a Collath when it is actually the Gründig. Since then , Frank Barnes in his “Cartridges of the World” has repeated this error. Even Bertram Bullets made the same mistake when he produced some unformed cases in 1994 with "BB roo 10.75x65R roo" hs and marketed them as the "10.75x65R Collath". However this case with a rim diameter of c12.2mm and rim diameter of 13.8mm is closer to the 10.75x65R Grundig. The error was corrected in the book “European Sporting Cartridges” Volume one (now out of print).

Oleg, regarding your example with no headstamp. I have not seen such a 10.75x65R before and cannot confirm who produced it. It is true that Sellier & Bellot did produce special orders without headstamp – eg 10.75x52R Springer and this maybe another example. However, I don’t think that the Gründig cartridges were that popular outside of Germany so maybe these were more modern by Horneber (they did produce 10.75x52R Gründig cases) or perhaps Bertram ?? Maybe more evidence will answer this question ??

Regarding the "11x65R", I know that both the 11.15x65R LK and 11.15x65R Collath were referred to as "11x65R" by several ammunition companies. I know of no other reference to this calibre but can say that of course "11mm" bullets are typically 11.15mm in diameter.

Edited by WBD (19/02/09 06:43 PM)

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Oleg
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Reged: 12/12/08
Posts: 26
Loc: Latvia, Riga
Re: loading data for 10.75x65r collath?? [Re: WBD]
      #127601 - 20/02/09 08:11 PM

Dear WBD,
Thank You very much. Thank You for exhaustive information. I have understood at last the situation with Collath and Grundig cartridges. The most important difference - different base diameters.

About 11x65R. I will formulate the next post. Sorry, my english is not so fluent and I need a little more time to prepare post. I have not that cartridge, but I have a gun. Old German drilling.

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Oleg
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Reged: 12/12/08
Posts: 26
Loc: Latvia, Riga
Re: loading data for 10.75x65r collath?? [Re: Oleg]
      #127849 - 23/02/09 11:41 PM

Dear WBD,
Dear All,
I decided to open my own topic about this cartridge (11x65R). Please read it. I would be very glad to read Your opinion.

Edited by Oleg (23/02/09 11:42 PM)

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