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Jeffeosso
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Loc: Porter, Texas
Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro
      #124603 - 20/01/09 02:56 PM

I haven't decided on the bullet for regulation, but it will either be the rem 405 at 2150 or the hornady 480 dgx at 2000fps.

Not trying to match the 450 Ne .. though the cases are close enough (i secitoned and weighed and did water capcity on them)...

I've decided to sleeve the huglu.. much as it shoots well for me as a shotty .. I have taken it out THREE times in a year... my stoger will work for shooting skeet (really)

Pics before hacking it up..

I've got 2 mcgowen 458 barrels, and one is turned down to be a sleeve already... the other is roughed is is cooling for the night. We'll make it better soon.

I am going to ream and thread the chambers and the barrels and then use the 45/120.

Trust me, the instant I clip the barrels from 28 to 23.5, the resale value is out the door for anyone but me...

only fools venture where angels fear to tread, right?

If I can make it shoot at least as well as my spartan, though, it WILL be prettier.
jeffe

--------------------
Why do Scots men wear kilts? Because it's far easier to run with your kilt up than your pants down


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lancaster
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Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: Jeffeosso]
      #124629 - 20/01/09 07:15 PM

I am thinking about a similar cheap fun gun project, cape gun from one of the many easy to get 16 ga sauer& sohn guns around here. thank gods there are also a lot of them with suhl claw mount and scope, old slug guns that nobody like anymore.






the 45/120 have a lot of potential, willy mintert in germany http://www.wm-bullets.de/ makes a CIP proofed load with a 485 grains hard cast gas check bullets and 588 m/sec- 5434 joule in horneber brass. thats brings the old lady in the class of the 9,3x64 brennecke but the 9,3mm bullet have a better sectional density of course. the 45/120 have a max pressure of 2200 bar and this load and the other in mintert reloading book I show are under this .the proof house in mellrichstadt germany have a pressure test barrel http://www.lmg-bayern.de/index.php?optio...er&Itemid=1, reamers are available and the die set is a realy cheap one, thanks to the cowboy action shooters. asking myself whats possible with a 400 grains softpoint in the 2200 bar pressure max.







--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Jeffeosso
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Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: lancaster]
      #124649 - 20/01/09 11:08 PM

THANK YOU!!
I have sectioned and measured 45/120, and these are not "ballon" cases, rather little difference than a 300 RUM case. 2200 bar is roughly 32000 psi, and basically above my operating max .. i am wanting to keep it together!

--------------------
Why do Scots men wear kilts? Because it's far easier to run with your kilt up than your pants down


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Jeffeosso
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Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: Jeffeosso]
      #124755 - 22/01/09 12:04 AM

Moderator
Please move to the building double forum, as I put this in the wrong forum
cheers

--------------------
Why do Scots men wear kilts? Because it's far easier to run with your kilt up than your pants down


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: Jeffeosso]
      #124798 - 22/01/09 04:36 AM

Done!

We all are anxious to learn of your conversion.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

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Jeffeosso
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Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: CptCurl]
      #124849 - 22/01/09 01:18 PM

thanks!
Tonight to
Shaped the barrels so they would barely slide into the barrels

stepped the right barrel, so I can put in an adjust screw to work LIKE the spartan jackscrew (maybe)

made a spud to align the barrels to the mill

cut back the "shank" to 2"- both barrels

thread one barrel

Started second barrel threading, realized I was tired, and left it there.

7/8-24, just in case your are interested!

tomorrow i'll take pics, as batteries were dead

Next steps:
finish threading barrels
Rough chamber
setup mill to hold on edge (i've got a second vise)
Aligned barrel
ream to 21mm, for about 2" - that leaves enough to get a wrench on to tighten
tap
repeat for second barrel

Friday night, might go to the movies...
Saturday - might work on my 4wheeler if my new head comes in! If not, I'll face off the barrels and chamber to norma brass

Why that way? Norma brass isn't the same (i don't CARE what specs say) headspace as 45/70.

should have nearly an eigth total adjustment, which is HUGE to get there from here

jeffe

--------------------
Why do Scots men wear kilts? Because it's far easier to run with your kilt up than your pants down


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Jeffeosso
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Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: Jeffeosso]
      #124948 - 23/01/09 01:52 PM

both barrels threaded

left chamber threaded

right will require me to flip the vise to get a bite

maybe tomorrow maybe sunday.. i am tired, so i quit for tonight

--------------------
Why do Scots men wear kilts? Because it's far easier to run with your kilt up than your pants down


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DarylS
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Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: Jeffeosso]
      #124994 - 24/01/09 04:37 AM

Hodgdon Annual Mannual 2009 book has .45/120 data held to well under 28,500CUP. In this case, as well as other straight .45 cases, the numbers almost match what the actual pezio PSI comes out at. This is a nice coincidence.

Hodgdon lists bullet weights from 350gr. to 500gr. I was surprised that the velocities recorded weren't higher for such a large case. In other words, it wasn't much higher than a .45/70 loaded with the same weight cast bullets to the same pressure levels. Bad news is the powders listed do not fill the case well and squibs and hangfires may occur. One should perhaps try slower powders than Hodgdon used, in order to better fill the case.
Try Accurate Arms web site, or Lyman #47 for other data for the 3- 1/4" case.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Jeffeosso
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Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: DarylS]
      #125059 - 25/01/09 08:21 AM

Daryl,
Thanks .. it was me that dubbed it the 45/120 nitro, and since max pressure has nothing to do with velocity, and we have done a good deal of load work, I feel that getting 405gr to 2000fps is a trivial exercise.. yes, max pressure has nothing to do with it, as bluedot will blowup guns and deliver 1/3 of the velocity .. it's pressure over time.. WORK that determines velocity .. and each and every reloading book proves the point, every time that have the same MAX pressure for loads, and different velocities.

Today
finished threading both "chambers"
got the right barrel in, and the action just barely not closing on it

rough chambered both barrels for 45/120 .. just barely touched the rim to barrel face, so it will need to be about .055 or more deeper, once the action is ready.. this will wait until extractor is finished

Left barrel is 1/4 of the way in, have to dress bout .01 or .015 off the end of the barrel, and it will go right in.

my method for installing the barrels is to take brass washers on eitehr end of a 3/8 all thread, lock washer on top of that, and 2 nuts... makes darn handy handle.

I have to order some left handed all thread for next weekend

I am going to stop until mid to late week, as I have to order the all thread, lefty, and my bolovia (clone) epoxy will be in..

I am going to use bolovia to mate the first third of the barrel to the sleeve, just in case.

jeffe

--------------------
Why do Scots men wear kilts? Because it's far easier to run with your kilt up than your pants down


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Jeffeosso
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Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: Jeffeosso]
      #125350 - 29/01/09 01:39 PM

I received the lefty all thread today, and the bolovia like stuff.. we shall see what is what, yeah?

tomorrow then, for any workings, and i hope it warms up!

--------------------
Why do Scots men wear kilts? Because it's far easier to run with your kilt up than your pants down


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Jeffeosso
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Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: Jeffeosso]
      #125571 - 01/02/09 06:22 AM

well, i got the barrels in. this was tougher than I thought..

I had to leave about .1 out, and use an impact wrench to bring them in.. .then faced that off, and got them to within a couple of being perfectly closed.. i left it a little long so i could clean up tomorrow...

I also cleaned up, but did NOT finish chamber, the chambers.. just enough to make a rim line, but NOT anything like headspacing it.

I rough cut the barrels back to about .2" long, ..as i cut it back, i discovered that the ribs were NOT fully soldered, only the first 3" or so ..

I'll solder the face and the barrels to the muzzle, and then clamp the barrels together.. ..

I won't cut the extractors yet, as I want to prove it first, with solid chambers..

i might prove it net week?

--------------------
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Al_in_Mi
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Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: Jeffeosso]
      #125605 - 01/02/09 09:15 PM

any pics of the progress?

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Jeffeosso
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Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: Al_in_Mi]
      #125614 - 02/02/09 12:46 AM

Thanks for reminding me.. yes, got pics, haven't posted them .. i should get to that today..

last night I bought a weaver base, leupold 10/22 to be exact though I wanted a marlin flat base, that I will drill and tap the existing rib and use epoxy to ensure a snug fit. Funny thing - the rib LOOKS flat, until you put a straightedge on it.. then it's wavy as a tin roof.

I shoot scopes better than irons, and certainly more consistently. If the gun passes proof, i plan on using the scope 99.9% of the time anyway. No groans out there... i mean, it's a sleeved shotgun in 45/120, just REALLY how much more unbritish is having the scope on? I know I shoot scopes better than I do irons.. i am friggin BLIND without my glasses, and I wouldn'r leave those in the gun case, "just to be sporting"

today I am going to mount that base, solder the barrels and rib to have a starting point, and get the rifle faced, headspaced, and ready to prove ..

jeffe

--------------------
Why do Scots men wear kilts? Because it's far easier to run with your kilt up than your pants down


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Jeffeosso
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Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: Jeffeosso]
      #125629 - 02/02/09 05:18 AM

well, i have NO COMET FLUX...
and apparently no "good" force 44...muratic, acid flux, and even silver paste didn't work..

I have it +.0005 or so on face, not fully chambered, and it closes JUST BARELY.

squared off the muzzles, 24.02 long barrels, right now..

I am ordering some force 44, comet flux, and we'll see what happens about wednesday
jeffe

--------------------
Why do Scots men wear kilts? Because it's far easier to run with your kilt up than your pants down


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Jeffeosso
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Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: Jeffeosso]
      #126092 - 07/02/09 11:44 AM

!@#!# #@%^^#$ %%@#$ )(*)(*5 &(*&*)***
:killpc:
so, i soldered the barrels in, and guess what, huglus are put together with lowtemp solder.. even the mono block.. i could have just pulled it part!! #$@#$@#$


my 45/120 reamer has the wrong rim diameter.. thankfully i didn't screw anything up .. i cut about .01 in, tested, didn't look right, stopped, got the calipers..

the reamer base is .025 too small..

I'll see if i can't borrow a buddie's reamer this weekend

--------------------
Why do Scots men wear kilts? Because it's far easier to run with your kilt up than your pants down


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Jeffeosso
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Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: Jeffeosso]
      #126770 - 12/02/09 02:10 PM

no update- i ordered a reamer and brass and should have this weekend, and then more work begins

--------------------
Why do Scots men wear kilts? Because it's far easier to run with your kilt up than your pants down


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Jeffeosso
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Reged: 11/01/03
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Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: Jeffeosso]
      #127075 - 15/02/09 05:47 AM

I got blind hog lucky - barrels lined up just about perfectly with firing pins, right barrel angled a hair more in than down, left the other way, more down than in, just a hair --

no sighting system yet.. perhaps tonight, if it lives doing the high prrof off road boogie ...
(proof loads whilest tied into a tire, at the end of a LONG rope)


here goes nothing..
fore and aft soldered in..
check

chambered and headspaced to nil
check
check

leave barrels FULL - not cutting extractor groove till after proofing
check
check

load half a dozen proof loads (i REALLY would prefer it to blow in the rack, not in my hands)
check...x6

load a couple nominal loads to see how its going to work
check x a bunch

Loaded up and headed to Rodney's --
If this is my last post, it's been a great ride

jeffe

--------------------
Why do Scots men wear kilts? Because it's far easier to run with your kilt up than your pants down


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DarylS
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Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: Jeffeosso]
      #127079 - 15/02/09 06:15 AM

If the top rib is solid where the sights will be - I drilled and tapped 4, 8 x40 holes and installed a Weaver base from a Marlin in the rib of a 12 bore, 7 1/2 pound double. Shooting 484gr. lead balls with 190gr. of 2f didn't loosen the rib nor shear off the scope mounts. It was a 2 1/2-8X40 scope weighing well over 1 pound, so the system will take recoil. What didn't, was my shoulder and the wrist of the stock. I ended up cross-pining it. The first time I firedthose loads, it spun me 1/2 way around. I wasn't leaned into it for a rapid right and left. Practise makes perfect. Not sure what the recoil comes out at- probably about 70 pounds.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Jeffeosso
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Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: DarylS]
      #127107 - 15/02/09 10:37 AM

woohoo!!!
we both lived thorough it and i survived with all 11 fingers!!

tied it to a tire, roped it in, and fired first working loads to verify, then 4 proof loads.

sure, the proofs were just quikcload estimates -- but estimates over 40K, when working load is under 30K --- and with 500gr bullets, not the working 405grs.

anyway, the proofs literally fell out of the chambers -- which only means that the proof loads aren't high pressure, it DOES NOT mean you can use the proof loads all the time.

The working loads just fall out, and i picked up and shot 4 of those after we checked headspace and inspected for damage..

I was worried about chamber swelling, but IN THIS CASE, there was no swelling, which was my largest proofing concern

up next - cut extractors mortices, make extractors, rig scope mount, install a recoil pad, and then begin regulation

more to come, for sure.
jeffe

--------------------
Why do Scots men wear kilts? Because it's far easier to run with your kilt up than your pants down


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Sarg
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Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: Jeffeosso]
      #127122 - 15/02/09 12:53 PM

Fantastic Jeffe !

You must be stoked ? I know I'am & I'am not even making it !

Thank you for sharing your work so far !


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Jeffeosso
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Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: Sarg]
      #127354 - 17/02/09 12:36 PM

thanks Sarg

Extractor motices cut
whole gun scrubbed with detergent and then oiled up

i'll make extractors tomorrow or the next day

--------------------
Why do Scots men wear kilts? Because it's far easier to run with your kilt up than your pants down


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Jeffeosso
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Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: Jeffeosso]
      #127657 - 21/02/09 01:36 PM

do to various PERSONAL issues, I can't bring myself to order the rib from crownpress -- I ordered some 7/16 10L14 to make my own ribs/sights, and we'll go from there.

I am certain tommy BUYS a fine rib to sell, but not for me.

--------------------
Why do Scots men wear kilts? Because it's far easier to run with your kilt up than your pants down


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AZDAVE
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Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: Jeffeosso]
      #129234 - 11/03/09 01:47 AM

Good Morning. I have been reading this forum for a little while and really been bitten by the bug to build my own double rifle.

I bought on of the Baikal Remington 45/70 and am having fun with it.

I have a De Haan (Huglu) 16. I am thinking about starting a double in 38/55 (just to be a little different) when I finish my mauser in 458. I have had good luck with Mcgowen barrels, i was wondering what barrel profile you bought from them?


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Jeffeosso
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Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: AZDAVE]
      #129302 - 11/03/09 10:25 PM

Hi Dave
I have the spartan 45/70, as well, and just love it with reasonable loads.. its WAY easy to adjust regulation. I scoped mine, and its a true 4wheeler doublegun

The De Haan is a better grade of the same type rifle.. better fit and finish is practical terms, in REAL terms, they ordered to a higher spec rate than generally done.

i would NOT do a 38/55, as 375 winchester cases fall in, and are much higher pressure. 9,3x74 or .375x74, and Dave Davidson, www.ch4d.com has dies for the latter.

I sleeved my barrels, though WHEN (sigh, i am a glutton for punishment) I do my next one, I am going to tear down the monoblock and start from "scratch" ..

my advice, for what its worth, is if you are going to use the barrels as monoblock, then if you want the SIMPLE approach, go .003 larger than where you plan to cut off the barrels to monoblock. long answer is to make the foreend measurements about the same, and then taper the fronts a little more.

its all about your tastes, fwiw

--------------------
Why do Scots men wear kilts? Because it's far easier to run with your kilt up than your pants down


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AZDAVE
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Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: Jeffeosso]
      #129360 - 12/03/09 02:25 PM

Thank You for help and information.

The reason I am thinking 38/55 is I have brass, dies and DON"t own a 375 win, but I do see your point. My second choice is a 40/70 straight sharps. Looking at low pressure rounds that I can hunt deer and black bear size critters.

I have the big stuff covered with a Ruger #1 in 50 Alaskan and a custom REM 700 in 458 LOTT. My next project is a 458 Win in a VZ24 mauser I have a exhibition grade walnut stock and plan on express sights etc.

After I bought my 45/70 double my dad found the " Making double rifles from shotgun actions" as a XMAS present and well my brain took off on what if:-)

I really like the De Haan as a shotty; handle's sweet and great for quail and doves. Would also serve as good rattlesnake medicine. I have a 2x2x15 chunk of 4140 that I will use part to build a mono block. I will post the project on the forums here when I get started.

Have a good evening.


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Jeffeosso
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Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: AZDAVE]
      #129376 - 12/03/09 11:07 PM

Dave,
I do suggest the 45/120 -- the cost is tiny more than a 45/70, and you can load to the same velocities as any safe 45/70, and be at far lower pressure.

if you are feeling up to it, the case is about the same capacity as the 450 NE.. within 3-5 grains of case.. and norma 120 brass is larger than knyock BERDAN primed 450 NE

--------------------
Why do Scots men wear kilts? Because it's far easier to run with your kilt up than your pants down


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AZDAVE
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Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: Jeffeosso]
      #129426 - 13/03/09 01:18 PM

You must be a mind reader<SMILE>

I have reread all your posting's and a few others that have done the 45/120 Nitro and it will get right there into 450NE range. The two gunsmiths that I have been learning from one has a
Merkel 500 NE that rewoke the dreams I had from all the reading about dangerous game in Africa I did and a youngster, and when he told me he had something I would be interested in IE The 45/70 double. I have been learning allot about reloading for doubles. and having a blast. I have several 45/70 and the other gunsmith has a 45/120 reamer and I have a NEF Buff classic that will soon be rechambered. The difference in cost to do a 40/70 straight sharps vs 45/120 is negligible. So and as my new friend from Porter Texas said "I do suggest the 45/120".

I have a couple 45 cal barrels that would work. Now I just need to finish a couple projects ahead of this and should be able to get started June-ish. I will keep you informed.

Thank you so much for the help and ideas.


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AZDAVE
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Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: AZDAVE]
      #129925 - 18/03/09 01:03 PM

I have looked at the load data for the 45/120 NITRO and am interested are you keeping the pressures around 28K or are you going a little higher? Also what powder have you found that works best with this large case?

I am going to fire up the harley and ride over this weekend and borrow the reamer and play with my NEF Buff classic to get some experience with the round before I start my project

Have a good evening.


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Jeffeosso
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Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: AZDAVE]
      #130254 - 23/03/09 02:29 AM

Dave
the 45/120 nitro is loads for modern guns, built for nitro. I do NOT recommend them in rebuilt shotguns, as, like the "for ruger" loads, they are probably going over 28l.
My max ceiling is a quickload estimate of 30k -- and h335 with a filler will do WAY over my desired loaded.. i want 400gr at 2000-2100 .. that's all .. no more, too much of a good thing, and its a pig gun, for all goodness.

I spent the day with my spartan shooting water jugs.. dang good fun!

--------------------
Why do Scots men wear kilts? Because it's far easier to run with your kilt up than your pants down


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AZDAVE
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Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: Jeffeosso]
      #130348 - 24/03/09 02:39 PM

A day shooting water jugs<BIG SMILE>, that bring back memories of my dad teaching me to shoot.

I had my ruger #1 re-barreled to 50 Alaskan to make sure I didn't load for it and accidentally put in my rolling block or HR Buff Classic.

With h335 what is the % of fill in the case? Have you tried slower powders like H4895 or H4831?

I agree with your pressure levels and performance objectives, with right at 4K or muzzle energy and two quick shots there isn't anything in North America that won't drop. Now if we can just get the cloning guys to get a couple thousand Wholly Mammoth's??? Then we might need a bigger pig gun:-)

The local gunsmith has reamer's from 45/70-45/120 he suggested that I take my buff classic and spend a little time at each caliber between the two. What do you think? or should I just jump straight to the 120?


Have a great evening

Dave


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Jeffeosso
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Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: AZDAVE]
      #130425 - 25/03/09 10:25 AM

Sounds like a fun day!
SKip the 45/70 -- anything that the 70 can do, with proper loading, the 120 can do at seriously lower pressure.

I've tried the slower powders.. and have given up on them.. they burn WAY too much outside the barrel. A little filler is 30 seconds per case more time. no worries

Get some norma brass, and have him headspace off THAT brass. Its a touch thinner than other stuff, but looks tough as nails.

I've got a 45/70 double rifle.. a spartan .. and its very light.. can't even begin to load it, at safe pressure, to even get close to a low pressure 120 load.

seriously, don't waste your time with a 70

jeffe

--------------------
Why do Scots men wear kilts? Because it's far easier to run with your kilt up than your pants down


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AZDAVE
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Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: Jeffeosso]
      #130500 - 26/03/09 06:33 AM

Jeffe,
I ordered some Norma brass yesterday and picked up the reamer last week so I will setup my NEF to get some experience with to round before I start my double.

Worked up some good loads for 45/70 double and plan on using it for elk this fall, provided I get drawn.

Have a good one.

Dave


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DarylS
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Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: AZDAVE]
      #130503 - 26/03/09 07:24 AM

H335 will give a huge BLOOM out the muzzle with low pressure loads. It needs pressures up over, for example 55,000PSI to burn well. I don't know if that's correct- might be 50,000 or even less than that - but with low pressure, it will soot cases and BLOOM on discharge. I never got much shoot, though. 66gr. of 4230 gave me the same ballistics without the flames, so maybe H4895 and 4320 would be better for the .50 Alaskan. They should be almost full case loads at the top end. Any data I've seen published on the .50 Alaskan has been for lever guns - hense 40,000psi or so.

I used to use H335 in my .458 2" (2.4" freebore in the chamber) Mauser 98, all I could get in the case with 350, 400 and 500gr. bullets. With the 350's, 68gr. ran 2,240fps, 2,160fps with 400's and 2,060fps with 500gr. With the 350's, there was a big ball of flame due to very low pressures, but descent velocity & very accurate with all weights.

In the .50 Alaskan #1, you will most likely need a full case - but- always start a bit low. In mine, especially with the 500gr., they were heavily compressed. I had good luck (short testing time, though) with John Buhmiller's double primer loading with H335, but that needs more work. Instead of the normal 68gr., I loaded 60gr. H335 and placed a large pistol magnum primer cup-down on top of the powder, under the bullet. This load was just barely 100% and the bullet's base held the primer there. This 60gr. load developed identical velocities with both 350 and 400gr., but left less residue in the bore and eliminated the ever present ball of flame. John developed this type of loading for straight cases that had difficulty burning the slower powders. It worked for him and worked for me - but - you're on your own. It is only useful for 100% loading densities where the primer is held stationary - I think? With the full charge and no primer up-top - the 350gr. loads make good signalling rounds after dark. quite a show BLC2 does the same thing in some other rifle ctgs., but on a slightly 'brighter' scale = less than max pressures - big ball of flame.

One other thing about the .45 3-1/4". It is not the .45/120 Sharps round. That one was both the 2.6" and 2 7/8" Sharps cases. Sharps never chambered any 3 1/4" straight cases in any calibre. Winchester did make a .45/120, but they used the same case as the .45BPE, not the Sharps case, which was a lengthened .45/70.

Re#7 worked well in my brother's .45 3-1/4" Sharps - low pressures for the BP (fat) firing pin. We used 62gr. Re#7 + Kapok to fill the case, with a 300gr. Jacketed bullet. It produced 2,275fps. In a strong action, Re#7 might be a great powder for that case.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (26/03/09 07:28 AM)


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Jeffeosso
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Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: DarylS]
      #130656 - 27/03/09 10:23 PM

Dave,
Buddy, send the reamer back, I'll loan you mine. No reason to do that spend.

Daryl
thanks much .. which filler, I am getting better results in the 120 than without on h335.. my 45/70 does less bloom with a stronger crimp -- lee crimper

Ya'll don't know this, but I go through h335 by the pound in each reloading session.. my AccRel, 416, 458, 470, and 500 ar, as well as the 550 express,

--------------------
Why do Scots men wear kilts? Because it's far easier to run with your kilt up than your pants down


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AZDAVE
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Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: Jeffeosso]
      #130699 - 28/03/09 01:04 PM

Jeffe,
Thank You for the offer of the loan. my gunsmith buddy loaned me his, for no charge. We do work for each other and the barter system. I do computer work and stock work for him and he has been teaching me what I don't know and lets me use his lathe when mine isn't big enough for the project.

The 45./120 brass arrived today and I will punch my Buff Classic out over the weekend. and play with the round some. I will pickup some h335 and give it a try. I have used allot of REL7 and H4198 in 45/70 and 458WM. H4895 in 458LOTT with good results.

On your 550 express what action did you use? I have looked what I can find on the internet and it looks interesting:-)

Daryl,

Thanks for the load info in the 50 Alaskan, I just got it and am working up loads; so far found two accurate loads with h4198 and a 435gr and 525gr hard cast gas checked.


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Jeffeosso
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Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: AZDAVE]
      #130712 - 28/03/09 10:36 PM

Dave,
When you are opening to 120, use the brass as a headspace, and when it BARELY closes. STOP .. If your 45/70 rim thickness was cut "generously" you may "see" pressure from mild loads, aka, primer stepping back.

my 550 express is done on a vz24, but the ruger 77mkii would be my preferred action for that. it's WIDE

www.weaponsmith.com and click on 550

--------------------
Why do Scots men wear kilts? Because it's far easier to run with your kilt up than your pants down


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AZDAVE
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Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: Jeffeosso]
      #130740 - 29/03/09 11:59 AM

Jeffe,
I am planning on opening it tomorrow afternoon. I will check the current headspace and open it up if it isn't to generous. Thanks for the advice. I will let you know what I find out.

I came across a couple VZ-24's a while back and did a tactical rifle in 338 FED and am about to do the other in 458WM. I have never used a ruger bolt action to build anything. Have always been partial to the #1. But I do like Rugers, they always build them idiot proof strong. So I will keep a eye out for a 77.

I will start my double when I finish the mauser. However I need to give FRY steel a call as the 2x2in square 4140 I have is just a hair to small for the De Haan action. I will have them send me some
2 1/2 SQ and it will be big enough to fit any 12 or 16 gauge action that I might come across.


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AZDAVE
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Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: AZDAVE]
      #130978 - 31/03/09 04:10 PM

Jeffe,
Have a quick question about rim thickness vs "generously" cut head space.

I measured the rims on the Norma 45/120 brass and it is .069-.070, All my starline 45/70 brass is .70 and the headspace on the Buff classic measures .0725. The rifles I have set headspace on have been bolts 338 fed, 338 win mag, 30/06 and the headspace on the mag belt has to be more generous. I was told to measure the thickest rim I was planning on using and headspace a thousandth over that. Would it be to much to go to have .0025-.0035? and would that cause primers to set back as you mentioned?

If so I can wait till I build the double and get it right.

Have a good evening


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Jeffeosso
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Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: AZDAVE]
      #130995 - 31/03/09 10:33 PM

Dave
the standard difference between go and no-go is .005. I won't tell you that the headspace will be okay (one slip) .. though I rechambered by nef 45/70 to 120 with little problem.. make it TIGHT as possible .. IN other words, if you are comfortable, then do not ADD anything .. remember, your reamer has at least .005 more "neck" than the drawings, to allow for case stretching.
my norma brass was a hair smaller than that .. which is why i am so focused on being CAREFUL with setting the headspace right ..

--------------------
Why do Scots men wear kilts? Because it's far easier to run with your kilt up than your pants down


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DarylS
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Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: Jeffeosso]
      #131026 - 01/04/09 02:36 AM

I always headspace on the brass I am going to use. I generally buy brass of the same lot in bunches of 500 for varmint ctgs. & BP Competition ctgs. and 200's for other rifle rounds.

When I buy a reamer for a ctg., I measure brand new brass of the same lot and have to reamer ground to .001" over brass measure - head diameter & shoulder diameter and length rim to shoulder/neck. I want as little expansion as possible - more accurate and brass lasts forever. I NEVER push a shoulder back while sizing. They've never become tight or refused to chamber and I am not a 'mild' loader. For example, my 22" 9.3x62 gets 2,519fps with 286gr. Normas and 2,675fps with 270's. Brass has over 15 firings now and is still going strong. The barrel's getting a bit long throated but still holding 1 1/4".

With belted mags, trouble looms due to loose manufacturing tolerances on headspace - best to measure all brass and divide into groups. Pick the group with the largest # of cases, usually 1/2 way, short to long (1/2 way is about .005" slop) and use that measure for the headspace - throwing out or turning back those that are too long, .001" to .005" OVER the middle of the road. this slop is why lots of buys have trouble with longevity with belted mag. cases. Any touching of the shoulders while sizing just magnifies the headspace slop. Belted cases are not needed today, except on straight cases.

Here's a suggestion for chambering a belted mag, like a .338, etc - have the reamer mfg'r grind off the belt section, then turn them off the brass cases. Result is a perfect .338 WinMag semi-rim that headspaces on the shoulder where it should. With a claw, the rim can also be turned down to head diameter and will work perfectly - true rimless .338 Mag, or 7mm mag, or whatever mag.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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AZDAVE
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Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: DarylS]
      #131605 - 06/04/09 01:00 PM

Jeffe,
Headspacing went well, was looking forward to send a few rounds down range but, had family drop in so will have to wait a couple weeks. Family will be here for easter then off to New Mexico for spring turkey. Last friday got news that I was drawn for muzzle loader elk here in Arizona. So looks like I will just have to build a new smokepole for the occasion. Maybe I can also get drawn for NM elk and use my double when I get it done:-) I will let you know how the buff classic shots when I get it out. Called Fry's steel and will get the momoblock steel sometime this week.

Have a good evening dave


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REN3
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Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: AZDAVE]
      #131759 - 08/04/09 09:50 AM

Why do you have to keep bashing the 45-70? If you are hunting in the lower 48 there is no reson to try and complicate things. I shoot 350 grain Hornady round nose at 2,000fps with 60 grains of Varget with Starline nickel plated cases in my Italian double rifle. It's accurate, does kick a little, but the pressure is in the 28K neighborhood! I love doing things just for the sake of the challenge, but sometimes logic just prevails.

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Bramble
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Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: REN3]
      #131763 - 08/04/09 10:04 AM

Quote:

Why do you have to keep bashing the 45-70?




Because it is illegal to kick cripples and the RSPCA get cross at me if I shout at my dog.

Regards


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AZDAVE
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Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: Bramble]
      #131782 - 08/04/09 12:12 PM

Ren3,

Not bashing 45/70 currently have a REM double rifle, REM rolling block,, 1885 REM LEE Navy all in said caliber. Just want to try something different. Jeffe and others have been kind enough to share knowledge and experience with someone preparing to build his first double. Plus I really enjoy talk with others that like big bore rifles as I find under 40 cal boring. My buff classic was the easiest to open to a 45/120 and if I messed it up HR will fit a new barrel in 45/70 for under $120.

Have a good evening.

Dave


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Jeffeosso
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Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: AZDAVE]
      #131809 - 08/04/09 10:01 PM

Ren3
its NOT BASHING .. dang, don't pick a fight.. its being SAFE with a shotgun to double rifle .. anything you can do with a 45/70, you can do with a 45/120, at hugely lower pressures.


This picture generally tends to end the "why not a 45/70 - you can do that with a 45/70" questions

--------------------
Why do Scots men wear kilts? Because it's far easier to run with your kilt up than your pants down


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REN3
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Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: Jeffeosso]
      #131818 - 09/04/09 12:01 AM

How much lower in pressure would the 45-120 be at the load weight (350gr)and velocity (2000fps)that I get out of my 45-70? I do not have load data for Varget with the 45-120. 28k in the 45-70 seems to be pretty low in the pressure world. Plus Starline does not offer nickel plated case in 45-120 as far as I know. Hey, I am as crazy as anyone. I am trying to find a suitable 410 SxS to convert to a double rifle in 22 Hornet! Thanks.

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DarylS
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Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: REN3]
      #131825 - 09/04/09 12:53 AM

The trouble with trying to get a 350gr. bullet only going 2,000fps in the 3 1/4" case is with too-low loading density, hangfires, missfires and possible chamber ringing. A very slow powder would have to be used that produced a full case - probably needing some compression to get the powder to burn properly. This is why Shilo Sharps does not warrant smokeless in their Sharps with 3 1/4" lengths- apparently.

Make certain you use the space inside the case with a good filler.

Nickle plated cases are not stronger than normal brass to any discernable degree, - my opinion.

We've run a .45 3 1/4" Sharps with Re#7 and 300gr. bullets at 2,200fps with fairly low pressure(indicated) using 62gr. Re#7 powder and heavily compressed kapok to fill the case. It shot 3-shot, 3/8" groups (cloverleafs, 3 groups in a row) off the bags at 100 yards every time, my bro shooting - tang aperature sight with pin-head front.

No heavier jacketed bullets were tried with smokeless, but, 500gr. Hornadys shot well with 100gr. 2F, excess space taken up with 7, 1/10" wads to the base of the bullet. This one also cloverleafed at 100yards, went the full length of a bull moose and stopped underneath the hide on his rump - non-expanded - moose took 2 steps, lay down and died. Possible velocity may have been about 1,350fps.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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REN3
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Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: DarylS]
      #131883 - 09/04/09 09:25 AM

Loading density is one of the advantages of Varget as it is a very bulky powder. 60 grains is a compressed load in the 45-70. The Aussies came up with something on this powder. Nickel plated cases just look good and do not tarnish the way unplated brass does. I just do not see any need for a bullet heavier than 350 grains for North American game. At 2,000fps the energy is 3K. The trajectory is flatter than a heavier bullet also, unless the fps is really pushed up. I can understand the fun part of reloading and experimenting with heavier bullets and longer cases, but I have always had more fun shooting with a good proven load that is absolutely reliable on game. Has anyone experimented with Varget in the longer cases? Thanks.

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tinker
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Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: REN3]
      #131902 - 09/04/09 02:15 PM

I can't speak for the straight walled cases, but in my 500/450 3-1/2" magnum BPE double rifle I'm running 76 grains of Varget topped with 21 grains of dacron wadding behind a Hornady 350gr SNRN for ~2025fpsMV

Wright has a similar load in his book, including pressure data -- but that's a bottleneck case, not a straight walled case.

This load runs consistently in my rifle.
Have you considered bottleneck cases?
I use 450no2NE brass, this load is easy on the brass with no stretch to speak of - I neck size only and reload...


Cheers
Tinker


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peter
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Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: Bramble]
      #131908 - 09/04/09 05:03 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Why do you have to keep bashing the 45-70?




Because it is illegal to kick cripples




you have wierd law's in england

peter


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Jeffeosso
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Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: peter]
      #131917 - 09/04/09 08:33 PM

Ren
i don't know how much lower, but the rule of thumb for going BIGGER is you will gain velocity at the rate of 1/4 of the percentage gain in capacity, at the same pressure. Do the math backwards, and its very intriging.

i don't care for plated brass, and only use norma for 45/120, due to construction and capacity

you are welcome to your 45/70, I have a couple. However, THIS build is about the 45/120 on MY huglu ... i wouldn't have bothered with the work, as my spartan does 45/70 work just fine

--------------------
Why do Scots men wear kilts? Because it's far easier to run with your kilt up than your pants down


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Al_in_Mi
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Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: Jeffeosso]
      #133558 - 26/04/09 05:55 PM

Jeffe, any new updates?

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REN3
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Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: Al_in_Mi]
      #133611 - 27/04/09 06:37 AM

Jeffe, I do not mean to change the subject from the 45-120, but rather I am just trying to gain some knowledge. I have no idea if my Italian double could be safely reamed out to 45-90 or 120, but I would certainly consider it just for the bigger case. Would there be any ballistic advantage in going with the larger case with a 350gr. bullet? Since I am using Varget powder now with a pressure lavel of only 28K at 60 grains based on Varget's published data, would I be able to significantly increase velocity, or would I just get lower pressure? Also do you have any idea on the minimum chamber wall thickness at the case mouth/bullet seating area of the chamber. Would lower pressure have any effect on felt recoil? Thanks. Bob N.

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