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Jeffeosso
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Reged: 11/01/03
Posts: 52
Loc: Porter, Texas
Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: AZDAVE]
      #129376 - 12/03/09 11:07 PM

Dave,
I do suggest the 45/120 -- the cost is tiny more than a 45/70, and you can load to the same velocities as any safe 45/70, and be at far lower pressure.

if you are feeling up to it, the case is about the same capacity as the 450 NE.. within 3-5 grains of case.. and norma 120 brass is larger than knyock BERDAN primed 450 NE

--------------------
Why do Scots men wear kilts? Because it's far easier to run with your kilt up than your pants down


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AZDAVE
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Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: Jeffeosso]
      #129426 - 13/03/09 01:18 PM

You must be a mind reader<SMILE>

I have reread all your posting's and a few others that have done the 45/120 Nitro and it will get right there into 450NE range. The two gunsmiths that I have been learning from one has a
Merkel 500 NE that rewoke the dreams I had from all the reading about dangerous game in Africa I did and a youngster, and when he told me he had something I would be interested in IE The 45/70 double. I have been learning allot about reloading for doubles. and having a blast. I have several 45/70 and the other gunsmith has a 45/120 reamer and I have a NEF Buff classic that will soon be rechambered. The difference in cost to do a 40/70 straight sharps vs 45/120 is negligible. So and as my new friend from Porter Texas said "I do suggest the 45/120".

I have a couple 45 cal barrels that would work. Now I just need to finish a couple projects ahead of this and should be able to get started June-ish. I will keep you informed.

Thank you so much for the help and ideas.


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AZDAVE
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Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: AZDAVE]
      #129925 - 18/03/09 01:03 PM

I have looked at the load data for the 45/120 NITRO and am interested are you keeping the pressures around 28K or are you going a little higher? Also what powder have you found that works best with this large case?

I am going to fire up the harley and ride over this weekend and borrow the reamer and play with my NEF Buff classic to get some experience with the round before I start my project

Have a good evening.


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Jeffeosso
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Reged: 11/01/03
Posts: 52
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Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: AZDAVE]
      #130254 - 23/03/09 02:29 AM

Dave
the 45/120 nitro is loads for modern guns, built for nitro. I do NOT recommend them in rebuilt shotguns, as, like the "for ruger" loads, they are probably going over 28l.
My max ceiling is a quickload estimate of 30k -- and h335 with a filler will do WAY over my desired loaded.. i want 400gr at 2000-2100 .. that's all .. no more, too much of a good thing, and its a pig gun, for all goodness.

I spent the day with my spartan shooting water jugs.. dang good fun!

--------------------
Why do Scots men wear kilts? Because it's far easier to run with your kilt up than your pants down


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AZDAVE
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Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: Jeffeosso]
      #130348 - 24/03/09 02:39 PM

A day shooting water jugs<BIG SMILE>, that bring back memories of my dad teaching me to shoot.

I had my ruger #1 re-barreled to 50 Alaskan to make sure I didn't load for it and accidentally put in my rolling block or HR Buff Classic.

With h335 what is the % of fill in the case? Have you tried slower powders like H4895 or H4831?

I agree with your pressure levels and performance objectives, with right at 4K or muzzle energy and two quick shots there isn't anything in North America that won't drop. Now if we can just get the cloning guys to get a couple thousand Wholly Mammoth's??? Then we might need a bigger pig gun:-)

The local gunsmith has reamer's from 45/70-45/120 he suggested that I take my buff classic and spend a little time at each caliber between the two. What do you think? or should I just jump straight to the 120?


Have a great evening

Dave


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Jeffeosso
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Reged: 11/01/03
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Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: AZDAVE]
      #130425 - 25/03/09 10:25 AM

Sounds like a fun day!
SKip the 45/70 -- anything that the 70 can do, with proper loading, the 120 can do at seriously lower pressure.

I've tried the slower powders.. and have given up on them.. they burn WAY too much outside the barrel. A little filler is 30 seconds per case more time. no worries

Get some norma brass, and have him headspace off THAT brass. Its a touch thinner than other stuff, but looks tough as nails.

I've got a 45/70 double rifle.. a spartan .. and its very light.. can't even begin to load it, at safe pressure, to even get close to a low pressure 120 load.

seriously, don't waste your time with a 70

jeffe

--------------------
Why do Scots men wear kilts? Because it's far easier to run with your kilt up than your pants down


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AZDAVE
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Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: Jeffeosso]
      #130500 - 26/03/09 06:33 AM

Jeffe,
I ordered some Norma brass yesterday and picked up the reamer last week so I will setup my NEF to get some experience with to round before I start my double.

Worked up some good loads for 45/70 double and plan on using it for elk this fall, provided I get drawn.

Have a good one.

Dave


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DarylS
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Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: AZDAVE]
      #130503 - 26/03/09 07:24 AM

H335 will give a huge BLOOM out the muzzle with low pressure loads. It needs pressures up over, for example 55,000PSI to burn well. I don't know if that's correct- might be 50,000 or even less than that - but with low pressure, it will soot cases and BLOOM on discharge. I never got much shoot, though. 66gr. of 4230 gave me the same ballistics without the flames, so maybe H4895 and 4320 would be better for the .50 Alaskan. They should be almost full case loads at the top end. Any data I've seen published on the .50 Alaskan has been for lever guns - hense 40,000psi or so.

I used to use H335 in my .458 2" (2.4" freebore in the chamber) Mauser 98, all I could get in the case with 350, 400 and 500gr. bullets. With the 350's, 68gr. ran 2,240fps, 2,160fps with 400's and 2,060fps with 500gr. With the 350's, there was a big ball of flame due to very low pressures, but descent velocity & very accurate with all weights.

In the .50 Alaskan #1, you will most likely need a full case - but- always start a bit low. In mine, especially with the 500gr., they were heavily compressed. I had good luck (short testing time, though) with John Buhmiller's double primer loading with H335, but that needs more work. Instead of the normal 68gr., I loaded 60gr. H335 and placed a large pistol magnum primer cup-down on top of the powder, under the bullet. This load was just barely 100% and the bullet's base held the primer there. This 60gr. load developed identical velocities with both 350 and 400gr., but left less residue in the bore and eliminated the ever present ball of flame. John developed this type of loading for straight cases that had difficulty burning the slower powders. It worked for him and worked for me - but - you're on your own. It is only useful for 100% loading densities where the primer is held stationary - I think? With the full charge and no primer up-top - the 350gr. loads make good signalling rounds after dark. quite a show BLC2 does the same thing in some other rifle ctgs., but on a slightly 'brighter' scale = less than max pressures - big ball of flame.

One other thing about the .45 3-1/4". It is not the .45/120 Sharps round. That one was both the 2.6" and 2 7/8" Sharps cases. Sharps never chambered any 3 1/4" straight cases in any calibre. Winchester did make a .45/120, but they used the same case as the .45BPE, not the Sharps case, which was a lengthened .45/70.

Re#7 worked well in my brother's .45 3-1/4" Sharps - low pressures for the BP (fat) firing pin. We used 62gr. Re#7 + Kapok to fill the case, with a 300gr. Jacketed bullet. It produced 2,275fps. In a strong action, Re#7 might be a great powder for that case.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (26/03/09 07:28 AM)


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Jeffeosso
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Reged: 11/01/03
Posts: 52
Loc: Porter, Texas
Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: DarylS]
      #130656 - 27/03/09 10:23 PM

Dave,
Buddy, send the reamer back, I'll loan you mine. No reason to do that spend.

Daryl
thanks much .. which filler, I am getting better results in the 120 than without on h335.. my 45/70 does less bloom with a stronger crimp -- lee crimper

Ya'll don't know this, but I go through h335 by the pound in each reloading session.. my AccRel, 416, 458, 470, and 500 ar, as well as the 550 express,

--------------------
Why do Scots men wear kilts? Because it's far easier to run with your kilt up than your pants down


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AZDAVE
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Loc: Arizona, USA
Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: Jeffeosso]
      #130699 - 28/03/09 01:04 PM

Jeffe,
Thank You for the offer of the loan. my gunsmith buddy loaned me his, for no charge. We do work for each other and the barter system. I do computer work and stock work for him and he has been teaching me what I don't know and lets me use his lathe when mine isn't big enough for the project.

The 45./120 brass arrived today and I will punch my Buff Classic out over the weekend. and play with the round some. I will pickup some h335 and give it a try. I have used allot of REL7 and H4198 in 45/70 and 458WM. H4895 in 458LOTT with good results.

On your 550 express what action did you use? I have looked what I can find on the internet and it looks interesting:-)

Daryl,

Thanks for the load info in the 50 Alaskan, I just got it and am working up loads; so far found two accurate loads with h4198 and a 435gr and 525gr hard cast gas checked.


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Jeffeosso
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Reged: 11/01/03
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Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: AZDAVE]
      #130712 - 28/03/09 10:36 PM

Dave,
When you are opening to 120, use the brass as a headspace, and when it BARELY closes. STOP .. If your 45/70 rim thickness was cut "generously" you may "see" pressure from mild loads, aka, primer stepping back.

my 550 express is done on a vz24, but the ruger 77mkii would be my preferred action for that. it's WIDE

www.weaponsmith.com and click on 550

--------------------
Why do Scots men wear kilts? Because it's far easier to run with your kilt up than your pants down


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AZDAVE
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Reged: 12/02/09
Posts: 75
Loc: Arizona, USA
Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: Jeffeosso]
      #130740 - 29/03/09 11:59 AM

Jeffe,
I am planning on opening it tomorrow afternoon. I will check the current headspace and open it up if it isn't to generous. Thanks for the advice. I will let you know what I find out.

I came across a couple VZ-24's a while back and did a tactical rifle in 338 FED and am about to do the other in 458WM. I have never used a ruger bolt action to build anything. Have always been partial to the #1. But I do like Rugers, they always build them idiot proof strong. So I will keep a eye out for a 77.

I will start my double when I finish the mauser. However I need to give FRY steel a call as the 2x2in square 4140 I have is just a hair to small for the De Haan action. I will have them send me some
2 1/2 SQ and it will be big enough to fit any 12 or 16 gauge action that I might come across.


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AZDAVE
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Reged: 12/02/09
Posts: 75
Loc: Arizona, USA
Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: AZDAVE]
      #130978 - 31/03/09 04:10 PM

Jeffe,
Have a quick question about rim thickness vs "generously" cut head space.

I measured the rims on the Norma 45/120 brass and it is .069-.070, All my starline 45/70 brass is .70 and the headspace on the Buff classic measures .0725. The rifles I have set headspace on have been bolts 338 fed, 338 win mag, 30/06 and the headspace on the mag belt has to be more generous. I was told to measure the thickest rim I was planning on using and headspace a thousandth over that. Would it be to much to go to have .0025-.0035? and would that cause primers to set back as you mentioned?

If so I can wait till I build the double and get it right.

Have a good evening


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Jeffeosso
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Reged: 11/01/03
Posts: 52
Loc: Porter, Texas
Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: AZDAVE]
      #130995 - 31/03/09 10:33 PM

Dave
the standard difference between go and no-go is .005. I won't tell you that the headspace will be okay (one slip) .. though I rechambered by nef 45/70 to 120 with little problem.. make it TIGHT as possible .. IN other words, if you are comfortable, then do not ADD anything .. remember, your reamer has at least .005 more "neck" than the drawings, to allow for case stretching.
my norma brass was a hair smaller than that .. which is why i am so focused on being CAREFUL with setting the headspace right ..

--------------------
Why do Scots men wear kilts? Because it's far easier to run with your kilt up than your pants down


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DarylS
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Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: Jeffeosso]
      #131026 - 01/04/09 02:36 AM

I always headspace on the brass I am going to use. I generally buy brass of the same lot in bunches of 500 for varmint ctgs. & BP Competition ctgs. and 200's for other rifle rounds.

When I buy a reamer for a ctg., I measure brand new brass of the same lot and have to reamer ground to .001" over brass measure - head diameter & shoulder diameter and length rim to shoulder/neck. I want as little expansion as possible - more accurate and brass lasts forever. I NEVER push a shoulder back while sizing. They've never become tight or refused to chamber and I am not a 'mild' loader. For example, my 22" 9.3x62 gets 2,519fps with 286gr. Normas and 2,675fps with 270's. Brass has over 15 firings now and is still going strong. The barrel's getting a bit long throated but still holding 1 1/4".

With belted mags, trouble looms due to loose manufacturing tolerances on headspace - best to measure all brass and divide into groups. Pick the group with the largest # of cases, usually 1/2 way, short to long (1/2 way is about .005" slop) and use that measure for the headspace - throwing out or turning back those that are too long, .001" to .005" OVER the middle of the road. this slop is why lots of buys have trouble with longevity with belted mag. cases. Any touching of the shoulders while sizing just magnifies the headspace slop. Belted cases are not needed today, except on straight cases.

Here's a suggestion for chambering a belted mag, like a .338, etc - have the reamer mfg'r grind off the belt section, then turn them off the brass cases. Result is a perfect .338 WinMag semi-rim that headspaces on the shoulder where it should. With a claw, the rim can also be turned down to head diameter and will work perfectly - true rimless .338 Mag, or 7mm mag, or whatever mag.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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AZDAVE
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Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: DarylS]
      #131605 - 06/04/09 01:00 PM

Jeffe,
Headspacing went well, was looking forward to send a few rounds down range but, had family drop in so will have to wait a couple weeks. Family will be here for easter then off to New Mexico for spring turkey. Last friday got news that I was drawn for muzzle loader elk here in Arizona. So looks like I will just have to build a new smokepole for the occasion. Maybe I can also get drawn for NM elk and use my double when I get it done:-) I will let you know how the buff classic shots when I get it out. Called Fry's steel and will get the momoblock steel sometime this week.

Have a good evening dave


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REN3
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Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: AZDAVE]
      #131759 - 08/04/09 09:50 AM

Why do you have to keep bashing the 45-70? If you are hunting in the lower 48 there is no reson to try and complicate things. I shoot 350 grain Hornady round nose at 2,000fps with 60 grains of Varget with Starline nickel plated cases in my Italian double rifle. It's accurate, does kick a little, but the pressure is in the 28K neighborhood! I love doing things just for the sake of the challenge, but sometimes logic just prevails.

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Bramble
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Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: REN3]
      #131763 - 08/04/09 10:04 AM

Quote:

Why do you have to keep bashing the 45-70?




Because it is illegal to kick cripples and the RSPCA get cross at me if I shout at my dog.

Regards


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AZDAVE
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Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: Bramble]
      #131782 - 08/04/09 12:12 PM

Ren3,

Not bashing 45/70 currently have a REM double rifle, REM rolling block,, 1885 REM LEE Navy all in said caliber. Just want to try something different. Jeffe and others have been kind enough to share knowledge and experience with someone preparing to build his first double. Plus I really enjoy talk with others that like big bore rifles as I find under 40 cal boring. My buff classic was the easiest to open to a 45/120 and if I messed it up HR will fit a new barrel in 45/70 for under $120.

Have a good evening.

Dave


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Jeffeosso
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Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: AZDAVE]
      #131809 - 08/04/09 10:01 PM

Ren3
its NOT BASHING .. dang, don't pick a fight.. its being SAFE with a shotgun to double rifle .. anything you can do with a 45/70, you can do with a 45/120, at hugely lower pressures.


This picture generally tends to end the "why not a 45/70 - you can do that with a 45/70" questions

--------------------
Why do Scots men wear kilts? Because it's far easier to run with your kilt up than your pants down


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REN3
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Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: Jeffeosso]
      #131818 - 09/04/09 12:01 AM

How much lower in pressure would the 45-120 be at the load weight (350gr)and velocity (2000fps)that I get out of my 45-70? I do not have load data for Varget with the 45-120. 28k in the 45-70 seems to be pretty low in the pressure world. Plus Starline does not offer nickel plated case in 45-120 as far as I know. Hey, I am as crazy as anyone. I am trying to find a suitable 410 SxS to convert to a double rifle in 22 Hornet! Thanks.

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DarylS
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Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: REN3]
      #131825 - 09/04/09 12:53 AM

The trouble with trying to get a 350gr. bullet only going 2,000fps in the 3 1/4" case is with too-low loading density, hangfires, missfires and possible chamber ringing. A very slow powder would have to be used that produced a full case - probably needing some compression to get the powder to burn properly. This is why Shilo Sharps does not warrant smokeless in their Sharps with 3 1/4" lengths- apparently.

Make certain you use the space inside the case with a good filler.

Nickle plated cases are not stronger than normal brass to any discernable degree, - my opinion.

We've run a .45 3 1/4" Sharps with Re#7 and 300gr. bullets at 2,200fps with fairly low pressure(indicated) using 62gr. Re#7 powder and heavily compressed kapok to fill the case. It shot 3-shot, 3/8" groups (cloverleafs, 3 groups in a row) off the bags at 100 yards every time, my bro shooting - tang aperature sight with pin-head front.

No heavier jacketed bullets were tried with smokeless, but, 500gr. Hornadys shot well with 100gr. 2F, excess space taken up with 7, 1/10" wads to the base of the bullet. This one also cloverleafed at 100yards, went the full length of a bull moose and stopped underneath the hide on his rump - non-expanded - moose took 2 steps, lay down and died. Possible velocity may have been about 1,350fps.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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REN3
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Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: DarylS]
      #131883 - 09/04/09 09:25 AM

Loading density is one of the advantages of Varget as it is a very bulky powder. 60 grains is a compressed load in the 45-70. The Aussies came up with something on this powder. Nickel plated cases just look good and do not tarnish the way unplated brass does. I just do not see any need for a bullet heavier than 350 grains for North American game. At 2,000fps the energy is 3K. The trajectory is flatter than a heavier bullet also, unless the fps is really pushed up. I can understand the fun part of reloading and experimenting with heavier bullets and longer cases, but I have always had more fun shooting with a good proven load that is absolutely reliable on game. Has anyone experimented with Varget in the longer cases? Thanks.

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tinker
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Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: REN3]
      #131902 - 09/04/09 02:15 PM

I can't speak for the straight walled cases, but in my 500/450 3-1/2" magnum BPE double rifle I'm running 76 grains of Varget topped with 21 grains of dacron wadding behind a Hornady 350gr SNRN for ~2025fpsMV

Wright has a similar load in his book, including pressure data -- but that's a bottleneck case, not a straight walled case.

This load runs consistently in my rifle.
Have you considered bottleneck cases?
I use 450no2NE brass, this load is easy on the brass with no stretch to speak of - I neck size only and reload...


Cheers
Tinker


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peter
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Re: Here we go -- Huglu 12ga to 45/120 Nitro [Re: Bramble]
      #131908 - 09/04/09 05:03 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Why do you have to keep bashing the 45-70?




Because it is illegal to kick cripples




you have wierd law's in england

peter


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