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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing

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Ron_Vella
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Reged: 29/04/05
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Loc: Oshawa, Ontario, Canada
.303 British Double Rifle Project
      #122636 - 30/12/08 03:13 PM

I recently started a new project, to build a short, light, double fifle, "on the cheap". I picked up a pair of .303 barrels, in as-new condition, that came from the 1910 Ross rifles. I turned them to a very light profile, and threaded the shanks 3/4"-32. I have a Laurona 20 gauge that I used to make the monoblock from. I have so far, bored and threaded it, and also threaded and soldered the barrels into it. Although the Laurona is an inexpensive gun, and is poorly finished, most of the poor finishing can be rectified during the build. I have already refinished the stocks and recut the checkering. The gun has most of the desireable features that one looks for in a host gun for a double rifle, ie:
Double underbites
Greener crossbolt
Bushed firing pins, and nice tight, close-fitting pins
Action bolsters

I have sent some photos to CaptCurl for him to post here for me. Will add some comments when he's done that.


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gryphon
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Re: .303 British Double Rifle Project [Re: Ron_Vella]
      #122640 - 30/12/08 04:09 PM

Over to you CC

--------------------
Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.


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kamilaroi
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Re: .303 British Double Rifle Project [Re: gryphon]
      #122645 - 30/12/08 05:57 PM

As I understand it a "Greener" crossbolt is but mere cosmetic adornment unless "fitted". (and many with that feature aren't)

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Paul
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Re: .303 British Double Rifle Project [Re: kamilaroi]
      #122648 - 30/12/08 07:03 PM

Good luck with your project. It is one I envisaged doing as a boy, 40 years ago, but have never got around to.

Cheers
- Paul


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Birdhunter50
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Re: .303 British Double Rifle Project [Re: kamilaroi]
      #122673 - 31/12/08 10:51 AM

I think of the Greener crossbolt as cheap last ditch insurance in case of a huge failure in the double underlugs. It could be said that if they do fail, the Greener will probably also fail, but the oldtimers evidently didn't think so or else they would never have gone to the trouble to put them on so many guns. The crossbolt does not have to be an extremely tight fit, it is in my opinion, just there to help keep the gun from opening completely during firing. I have looked at many Greener crossbolts and have even smoked some of them to see how tight they were fitted. I have NEVER found one that even touched the hole through the rib extension, let alone bolted it tightly. Maybe all these guns that I looked at were cheaply made, but if so, that included Berettas, AYA's,and Laurona's. All reportedly, good guns. I don't think they were ever intended to fit tightly, and maybe as some have said, they were only put on there as a sales gimic. It always makes me feel good to know that my guns have them, though.

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Birdhunter50
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Re: .303 British Double Rifle Project [Re: Ron_Vella]
      #122674 - 31/12/08 11:06 AM

Ronvella,
Good luck with your conversion. It sounds like you have the basic gun pretty well along in it's conversion. Now comes the fun part, regulation. That's where the hair pulling really begins. It's best just to do a little at a time so as not to get frustrated. I think your 303 will make a great light hunting gun. You never said, but how much does it weigh? I have done a 45-70 on a lightweight 12 gauge Laurona, and you are right about the cheap finish. Here is something that might help you out. The main thing that I found wrong with the Laurona was the lousy quality Nickle finish that they put on them. Brownells sells a Nickle remover that comes as a two part formula that you mix in equal parts and it really does work well. I had a man who wanted his double finished with a brown finish. Ya, I know, It isn't traditional, but that's what he wanted. So, I stripped the Larona's Nickle off and polished it up and browned it for him. He was tickled to death with it. He chases bears and mountain lions with his dog pack and didn't want any flash to his gun for fear that it would make the quarry bail out of the tree. It worked out well for both of us. You could also blue or caseharden it if the steel will take any color. I have not tried that yet.


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Ron_Vella
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Re: .303 British Double Rifle Project [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #122680 - 31/12/08 01:07 PM

Birdhunter50,
This is my fifth build so I'm very familiar with the trials and tribulations of regulating these guns. The .450 #2 that I recently finished, was not all that bad for regulation. I've learned to be very careful with measuring and controlling centre to centre dimensions, both horizontally and vertically, during assembly. I actually thought about doing exactly what you suggest but the nickle seems to be ok on this Laurona. I'm going to live with it until everything else is finished, then re-assess the situation.


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Paul
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Re: .303 British Double Rifle Project [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #122681 - 31/12/08 01:54 PM

Quote:

I think of the Greener crossbolt as cheap last ditch insurance in case of a huge failure in the double underlugs. It could be said that if they do fail, the Greener will probably also fail, but the oldtimers evidently didn't think so or else they would never have gone to the trouble to put them on so many guns. The crossbolt does not have to be an extremely tight fit, it is in my opinion, just there to help keep the gun from opening completely during firing.




That's a neat way of looking at it Birdhunter, kinda like the M98's third lug. When the gun comes off face the crossbolt should slow the dynamic hammering a bit until the matter is rectified, too.

- Paul


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Marrakai
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Re: .303 British Double Rifle Project [Re: Paul]
      #122686 - 31/12/08 03:03 PM

Quote:

I have looked at many Greener crossbolts and have even smoked some of them to see how tight they were fitted. I have NEVER found one that even touched the hole through the rib extension, let alone bolted it tightly.



Birdhunter:
Maybe you should try to examine an actual Greener treble wedge-fast action that has not been abused or poorly tightened. I can't speak for the 'continental' variants but you can rest assured that British makers such as Greener and Webley & Scott fitted them up properly at the date of construction.

The cross-bolt may have been a 'gimmick' in the sense that it was designed as much for capturing market share as improving the design of a double gun, but if fitted by a respected Brit maker they were always fitted properly.

Enlightened DR owners would never interpret the intervening century's wear and tear, coupled with ignorant or shoddy gunsmithing, as indicative of a well-built firearm's original design specifications.

Similarly, the current attituide of mass-production in a climate of fiscal constraint is hardly comparable to the skill and pride of workmanship characteristic of the heyday of British and European gunmaking a century ago.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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Der_Jaeger
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Re: .303 British Double Rifle Project [Re: Marrakai]
      #122699 - 31/12/08 09:31 PM

Birdhunter


The Greener Crossbolt is in no way a gimmick except in the case of cheap and/or poorly made guns. I have a Merkel 247SL and the fit and finish is superb. In fact, all Merkels I've owned were fit in the same way. The Greener Crossbolt has been widely copied and, in many cases, disastrously so. The underbolt alone does not counter the destructive trio (axial, radial, bending) of firing forces. Tests have shown that, with just underbolts in operation, the barrels can still separate from the standing breech. This is common knowledge today. This gaping action works against the angle of the frame (which is slightly rounded and not a right angle for a good reason). British gunmakers (Purdey, Holland's, Greener) responded to the inadequacies of underbolting by introducing "top fasteners," which held the barrel face to the standing breech. Of course, Greener's bolt is the most famous. Operating in unison with the tang lever, the crossbolt's bite frustrates axial and radial forces while also dampening the harmful impulses of bending pressures.

It is therefore one of the most versatile, if not the most versatile, of all top fasteners, because its placement and power oppose ALL THREE adverse forces. The only other truly viable top fastener is a well fitted Westley Richards style Doll's head.

To say the the crossbolt is a gimmick and useless is simply, from an engineering standpoint, wrong.

The Greener Crossbolt is also insurance against cracking and premature looseness in lightweight game guns and rifles on boxlocks and bar action side locks, both of which have their frames weekened internally by transverse bolts, inletting, and machined areas.

Proper fit and finish are essential for utmost efficiency, but producers of garden variety doubles have taken undue liberties with Greener's invention while still capitalizing on his famous name. Claiming their product as a "Greener-type" crossbolt, they have inserted square or flat crossbolts instead of the original round bolt and, in some cases, they have given the rib extension nothing more than a notch or pair of stubby arms. What a joke. In quest of high profits, these makers have done horrible jobs of fitting. The result is but a Christmas Tree ornament. Extensions open at the rear or offerering only stubby arms cannot retard axial forces or hold securely against bending pressures. Again, this is an engineering fact.

Properly fitted, the dowel's rear half holds securely against the barrels' thrusts and, even on a relatively small diameter bolt, the rear half of it's circumference provides considerable bearing surface. In turn, the rib extension need be drilled with only a small hole, thereby leaving it stronger than if it were cut for a useless square bolt with equal bearing surface.

I won't even get into the value of well-fitted and properly filed side clips!

--------------------


Edited by Der_Jaeger (31/12/08 09:33 PM)


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Birdhunter50
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Re: .303 British Double Rifle Project [Re: Der_Jaeger]
      #122706 - 31/12/08 10:50 PM

Der Jaeger,
I agree completely with most of what you said, and it may be that the British did fit their Greener crossbolts tightly, however, I know from practical experience that if it is fitted too tightly, as in a tight slip fit, any dirt present with stop the third bolt from closing all the way. You can use the arguemant that we should keep our crossbolt guns meticulessly clean so that doesn't happen, but we all know that in real hunting situation, dust, dirt, oily gunk, and things like fine weed seeds, work their way into our gun actions. The only way to properly clean a crossbolt gun that gets hung up with accumulated crud, is to completely strip and detail clean it. That includes taking the blind crossbolt completely out of the gun and going in with Q-tips and or pipe cleaners and getting out the crud.
How many people do you know who are willing or able to do that? Most are not. Have you ever completely dis-assembled any of your crossbolt guns and given them a complete cleaning? I have completely dis-assembled several of these guns and you would not believe the built up gunk that works it's way in there. The point of all this is my claim that as time went on, gunmakers loosened up crossbolt tolerances because of problems with dirt getting in and binding up the gun's action.
It is the same reason that a .45 Colt automatic isn't tightly fitted like some of todays race guns and target pistols. If you are going to bet your life on a gun going off every time in dangerous situations, you want to make Damn Sure it goes bang when you pull the trigger, and then that it doesn't open by itself when the first shot is fired! This is one of the prime differences between a cross bolted gamegun and a double barreled rifle used against dangerous game.
Even Hide Bound old british gunmakers could change if they had to in order keep their clients alive to buy more guns. I do understand the reasoning behind the crossbolt helping to conquer the various forces that are at work in a double, but a slightly looser fitted crossbolt will do all that as well and not suffer from every little bit of dirt that gets into it. Closely fitted guns are a thing of beauty but I also know that they can be an extreme pain in the ass. I once owned a great German drilling that was fitted so tighly that it would not close on some type of snapcaps. I had to work down the rims just a little to even get the gun closed. Any degree of dirt or dust in it made it totally worthless. Did I enjoy hunting with it? Yes, but I would NOT want to stake my life on it's dependability.


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Der_Jaeger
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Re: .303 British Double Rifle Project [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #122707 - 31/12/08 11:08 PM

Quote:

Der Jaeger,
Have you ever completely dis-assembled any of your crossbolt guns and given them a complete cleaning?
........... I do understand the reasoning behind the crossbolt helping to conquer the various forces that are at work in a double, but a slightly looser fitted crossbolt will do all that as well and not suffer from every little bit of dirt that gets into it.





Indeed I have; many times. I have never had a crossbolt fail to close properly. Dust, grime, seeds, etc, will most definitely find their way into the underbites as well. Both are very simple to clean out. Simply break the barrels open and clear the debris. They must be fitted with exact tolerances or they do not work properly as designed. A loosely fitted Greener Crossbolt is asking for problems. In the same manner, a loosely fitted Purdey underbite is asking for trouble. If either one is filled with grime, neither will close properly. Any space in the crossbolt will allow the barrel lug to slap against the crossbolt and, over time, will add to the looseness of the gun.

Yes, I would definitely stake my life around the soundness of a properly built rifle with a Greener Crossbolt or a Westley Richards Doll's head. In fact, I would feel even more secure and have more peace of mind knowing that my gun or rifle is fitted with one.

Anyway, that's my opinion and biases toward over-engineered systems and thus my preferences for a lot of the Teutonic guns today.

I guess we got a little off topic since this started out withe the .303 rifle project

--------------------


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Birdhunter50
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Re: .303 British Double Rifle Project [Re: Marrakai]
      #122708 - 31/12/08 11:17 PM

Marrakai, The chances of my ever seeing, let alone examining, a Greener's Treble Wedge-Fast are from slim to none. Where I live, I am lucky to even see a quality double barrel unless it is one I have bought and imported into Iowa from the outside world. I guess my points about the Greener crossbolt were either poorly stated or misunderstood. I don't feel at all that the Greener crossbolt is not a necassary or very useful item to have on your gun. I'm just saying that in most cases, where a cheaper double is purchased with the idea on converting it to a double rifle, I would be very surprised if the Greener made any contact at all with the rib extension, and I would worry too much about it if it didn't. The one gun that I can think of that might be bought relatively cheaply and converted would be an older Merkel. That being said, I would Never consider converting a Merkel that was still in good enough shape to use as a shotgun. It would have to have bad barrels or something else seriously wrong with it before I would even think about chopping it.
I'll bet that there will be some people who do cut up a good Merkel to make a rifle ,who will kick themselves later when they think back to what they did to their nice shotgun. There are plenty of damaged guns out there that could be used without cutting up a nice shotgun. I see lots of guys are thinking about chopping Huglu's to make double rifles. I wouldn't do that even to a Huglu, but if you have to cut a good gun, then it is better to use a Huglu than a nice Merkel!


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Ron_Vella
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Re: .303 British Double Rifle Project [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #122741 - 01/01/09 02:28 AM

CaptCurl is on vacation in sunny Florida this week. He will post my photos when he's back home, next week.
Happy New Year to all my fellow lovers of perfection in form and function !!!!


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: .303 British Double Rifle Project *DELETED* [Re: Ron_Vella]
      #122864 - 03/01/09 12:19 AM

Post deleted by CptCurl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Ron_Vella
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Re: .303 British Double Rifle Project [Re: CptCurl]
      #122869 - 03/01/09 03:16 AM

First of all, I must appologize for the poor definition in these close-up photos but I'm no photograper and I can't figure out how to focus my Canon digital manually and I've misplaced the owner's manual.
1) This is a photo of the monoblock, created by cutting off the 20 gauge barrels, about .125" ahead of the barrel flats. The chambers have been bored out to .719", then theaded 3/4"-32 with a tap, then faced off square to the bore. It is important that this last step is done one chamber at a time because the bores are not parallel. If you just run a milling cutter across the front face, from one side to the other, the cut will not be square to the bores because the chambers are not parallel. You would then end up with a small gap between the barrels and the face of the
monoblock, on the surfaces closest to the centre line.


2) This is the shank of one of the 1910 Ross barrels. I have turned it to .750", the major diameter of the 3/4"-32 thread.


3) Here I'm threading that barrel shank in my South Bend lathe.


4) This is the first barrel, test fitted to the monoblock. I cut the threads between centres in the lathe. That allows me to remove the barrel, as the thread approaches completion, and test-fit it to the monoblock. That way I can get as close a fit as possible. Using centres, rather than a chuck, allows for much easier repeatablity when the barrel is set back up in the lathe for another cut on the threads.


5) This is just another view of the above.


6) Here's the second barrel, threading complete, and test-fitted to the monoblock as well.


7) Both barrels, test-fitted to the monoblock.


8) A close-up view of the above.


9) Here are the barrels, test-fitted to the monoblock, and I'm making up spacers to be micro-TIG-welded between them. My goal is to end up with a convergence of about .020" from the forward spacer, out to the muzzle wedge.


10) Here's the extractor, set up in a jig that I cobbled together, along with the two filler pieces that I tuned up in the lathe. These will be micro-TIG'ed into place, then filed and stoned to final fit. The finish chambering process will cut these inserts to final dimensions, including the rim recesses.


11) This is a close-up view of the barrels, threaded and soldered with Brownell's Hi-Force 44 solder, into the monoblock.


12) Here the left barrel and monoblock have been roughly draw-filed and stoned to near-final dimensions.


13) Another view of the same.


14) Here's the left barrel, completed except for final polish to 400 grit, after intallation of the ribs.


15) Here's the gun, on my knee, right barrel yet unfinished, and forend held in place, just to see how it's going to look when complete.


16) Here's another view, laid out on "the warden's" ironing board.


17) Here's another view, left barrel finished, right still to do. Note that top lever is still well to the right of centre, I have to do some careful spot-bluing and stoning to bring the barrels completely down onto the standing breech.


18, 19, 20) These are three views of the barrel assembly, shimmed and very tightly clamped to a section of six inch aluminum "I-Beam", ready to go to the micro-TIG welder. He will weld the forend hanger, the spacer at 12" from breech face, and the spacer at 18" from the breech face. The wedge that goes between the muzzles, and is used for final regulation, will be soldered into place, along with the top and bottom ribs. The aluminum I-beam provides an extremely rigid and dead-flat surface. I clamp the monoblock to it first, very tightly, then with a lot of measuring and shimming, I clamp the barrels to it, in two locations, with the spacers between them. This allows me to get the verttical regulation of the barrels, very close to where it needs to be. What I like about this system is that because the spacers and forend hanger are TIG welded into place, nothing can move on you during the process of soldering on the top and bottom ribs and the muzzle wedge.







Edited by ronvella (03/01/09 07:03 AM)


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Ron_Vella
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Reged: 29/04/05
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Re: .303 British Double Rifle Project [Re: Ron_Vella]
      #122870 - 03/01/09 03:22 AM

Roscoe,

I don't know what happened but we've now got two posts of these photos. If you would be gracious enough to delete yours, as well as this one, then we'd be left with just mine with my captions. Thanks very much for all of your patience and your tutelage of this "computer-illiterate".


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ChrisPer
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Re: .303 British Double Rifle Project [Re: Ron_Vella]
      #122887 - 03/01/09 10:30 AM

ronvella, that is some very impressive work. Those jigs really impress. Tell me, are the barrel spacer layouts copied from a particular rifle or your own design?

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Ron_Vella
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Reged: 29/04/05
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Loc: Oshawa, Ontario, Canada
Re: .303 British Double Rifle Project [Re: ChrisPer]
      #122891 - 03/01/09 01:28 PM

ChrisPer,
They're my own design. I machine them out of 1/4" x 1/2" cold-rolled steel, held in a milling attachment on the compound slide of my lathe. Since the barrels taper toward the muzzles, I cut the spacers on the same taper so that they are a snug fit between the barrels.


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: .303 British Double Rifle Project *DELETED* [Re: Ron_Vella]
      #124749 - 21/01/09 10:56 PM

Post deleted by CptCurl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Ron_Vella
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Re: .303 British Double Rifle Project [Re: CptCurl]
      #124803 - 22/01/09 05:26 AM

More photos of the progress.




1) I received the top and bottom ribs about a week ago from Tom Ondrus at Crown Press. I've been busy since, configuring them to fit. This photo shows the bottom rib, shortened to required length, tapered, and bent down so that it will fit under the forearm. I have drilled, and tapped 6-48, a hole in the spacers at 6" and 12" behind the muzzles, to accept anchor screws for the rib. Sling swivel base has also been installed.


2) This is a view of the same from above.


3) Another view from above. The small block at the right is one that I filed up, silver soldered to the inside of the bottom rib, and drilled and tapped 4-48 to accept the mounting screws for the front sling swivel base. The bottom rib is probably thick enough to hold them on its own, but I wanted to make sure that the installation was "bulletproof".


4) Another close-up view of the bottom rib. When everything is set, both ribs will be soldered in place with Brownell's Hi-Force 44 solder. I still like my system of using these mounting screws to anchor the rib to the spacers. They act as a jig to hold things in correct alignment during the soldering process and they act as a fail-safe down the road, ensuring that the bottom rib does not come loose under the stress of carrying the rifle on a sling.


5) Here is the top rib, reconfigured somewhat from the way it was received, and sitting atop the barrels so that I can take some measurments for fitting.


Edited by CptCurl (09/02/09 10:43 PM)


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Sarg
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Re: .303 British Double Rifle Project [Re: Ron_Vella]
      #124812 - 22/01/09 06:47 AM

Fantastic Ron , great work , thank you for posting , I might make my own 577 BPE yet !

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: .303 British Double Rifle Project [Re: Sarg]
      #125558 - 01/02/09 02:05 AM

More progress and more photos. See below.

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Anonymous
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Re: .303 British Double Rifle Project [Re: CptCurl]
      #125567 - 01/02/09 05:46 AM

Very nice work.

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Sarg
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Re: .303 British Double Rifle Project [Re: ]
      #125578 - 01/02/09 07:59 AM

Ron you are a crafts men with a file mate ! But not so good with the old Camera , I , we still love to see them how ever !

If the flash is washing out the pic & you still need the flash as in doors , get back & use the zoom then flash & it will not over flash so much , you might need a tripod if locking your arms does not work .

Thank you for the photos so far !


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