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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles

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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Accuracy of Double Rifles?
      #11298 - 10/03/04 11:39 AM

Stealing an idea from another forum.

How accurate is a Double? Were they only designed for 100 yards or less as some have surmised. Were the rimmed versions of rimless cartridges less accurate than their brothers.

I made a statement that no one over there challanged. It is that the British Standard for regulation of a Double Rifle was 4 shots, 2 right and 2 left, was 3 inches at 100 yards. This is comparable to a Mauser with open sights at the time. This distance was not for the 600, 577 etc but the medium bores, they were regulated for 50.

I think that a Double will shoot as well as the shooter. A well regulated 9.3 or 375FM etc will shoot to 300 yards and kill as well as a bolt rifle with the same sights in a similar caliber.

Any comments?

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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ThomasEdwards
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Reged: 04/01/04
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Re: Accuracy of Double Rifles? [Re: mickey]
      #11310 - 10/03/04 12:45 PM

...excellent topic...

...i can only speak from personal experience, which is with an ou 9.3 that was regulated at 60 metres, and that came with a factory target showing four shots (bottom/top + top/bottom)...the b/t + t/b shots were at around 0.50 moa...

...my own testing using the fixed express sights at 50 yards on a bench (again, four shots) was 1.0 moa for the first pair, and 0.75 moa for the second pair...

...if i were to scope the ou, and use the rifle as a ss, i believe that the rifle would as accurate moa-wise as my best small/medium bore turnbolts...


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Chasseur
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Reged: 18/11/03
Posts: 771
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Re: Accuracy of Double Rifles? [Re: mickey]
      #11318 - 10/03/04 02:46 PM

My Chapuis 9.3x74R gets a 2-2 1/2" four shot group at 100 yards with a scope. With irons its 1" at 50. That's good enough for me!!



--------------------
In regards to action he should devote himself to hunting...
-Machiavelli



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475Guy
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Re: Accuracy of Double Rifles? [Re: mickey]
      #11324 - 10/03/04 02:58 PM

I can't remember what distance the Merkel I used to own was sighted in at. It did show 4 shots at about 3". When I changed the sights on it, the smith showed me a group where 4 shot groups were at 1-2" at 100 yds. This was my 470 NE. He even showed me 2 shots touching at 100 yds. I could never get that kind of groups, I guess I just wasn't holding my mouth open just right.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.


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NONE
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Re: Accuracy of Double Rifles? [Re: 475Guy]
      #11327 - 10/03/04 03:07 PM

Merkel .470 is factory regulated with fed 500gr soild loads at 100yards.
Mine will touch one ragged hole with 4rounds L-R L-R at 50yards most times and shoot 1 1/2" at 100yards in my better groups.

James F. Nixon III


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mickey
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Re: Accuracy of Double Rifles? [Re: NONE]
      #11333 - 10/03/04 03:54 PM

How does your Double compare accuracy wise to a similiar bolt action? If your Double was scoped would you feel comfortable shooting to 300 yards if you knew the trajectory?

I think the old Boddington 'minute of Grapefruit' analogy was to cover the fact that Roque River couldn't build an accurate Double and since he was pimping for them at the time he was covering their ass. Or possibly he is just a lousy shot.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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NONE
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Re: Accuracy of Double Rifles? [Re: mickey]
      #11336 - 10/03/04 04:33 PM

When it comes to punching paper a bolt is more accurate in the long term hands down, I can punch a single ragged hole with most of my bolt guns at 100. You have more experience then me on this I am sure, but since I get the impression your looking for anothers view here is mine.

The double was not intended to win matches though, it was built to handel the abuse of large calibers used to take large game. That said you don't have to shoot 1/4 MOA to hunt either, at the size game we hunt give me a scope with BDC or Mil Dots and a proper chart of drop at range and I would feel confident in hitting non DG at 300yards. I would not use it for that IMO it was not intended for plains game and I have rifles that are much better at doing that job. I will use my double for its intended use DG and to be DG to me it need be under 100yards a lot under.

This question would be better put to the owner of a 375 FM or 9,3x74R IMO as the .470 would be a hail marry the drop at 300 would most likely be a city block holdover

James F. Nixon III


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ThomasEdwards
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Re: Accuracy of Double Rifles? [Re: mickey]
      #11337 - 10/03/04 04:52 PM

...rigbys/rogue rivers have been touting the accuracy of their double rifles as a key selling point, and 'guarantees' - a la weatherbys - a 1.0 moa at 50 yards (and notes that 3.0-4.0 moa at 100 yards is standard for the double rifle industry)...

...boddington attributes this to the use of pac-nor barrels, the quite rigid merkel actions, and the use of a secret barrel block (in addition to the regulating skills of del whitman)...

...there has been much discussion on other chat boards about the downward trending of the quality of pac-nor barrels of late...don't know whether this is true or not, but do know that barrels by walther lothar, krieger and others seem to define the current state of the art barrel-wise...


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mickey
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Re: Accuracy of Double Rifles? [Re: ThomasEdwards]
      #11339 - 10/03/04 05:17 PM

Thomas

Boddingtons original 'minute of grapefriuit, or whatever' was from 5 plus years ago. Before they bought Rigby. Much may have changed but in all of the posts on the forums I have read I don't even remember a poster having a Rougue River Rifle.

James

Given that the 470 is not a long range rifle would you shoot a 458 or a 458 Lott with open sights at distances that you would not shoot your 470? If your 470 had a scope would you shoot at the same distances as you would a 458 with a scope?

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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ThomasEdwards
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Re: Accuracy of Double Rifles? [Re: mickey]
      #11341 - 10/03/04 05:57 PM

mickey,

...fair enough...just wanted to shed some light on the subject...

...i think geoff miller and crew still own both rigbys and rogue river, and sci rifle donations are in the name of both companies...


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atkinson6
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Re: Accuracy of Double Rifles? [Re: ThomasEdwards]
      #11342 - 10/03/04 06:23 PM

None,
If you can punch a single ragged hole at 100 yards with most of your bolt guns with iron sights then your the worlds champion rifle shot by one hell of a long shot....

But I would bet a $1000.00 per group that you cannot do that unless your just fire one shot!


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Chasseur
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Re: Accuracy of Double Rifles? [Re: atkinson6]
      #11354 - 11/03/04 01:42 AM

I am with Ray on this one. With iron sights, I can't shoot my 30-06 any better than than my double at 100 yards. Potential accuracy of the rifle is kinda moot when MY potential accuracy is just not MOA with irons at 100. Not to say I don't practice, I can make useful groups, but sub 1" at 100, no way.

--------------------
In regards to action he should devote himself to hunting...
-Machiavelli



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NONE
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Reged: 15/12/03
Posts: 110
Re: Accuracy of Double Rifles? [Re: atkinson6]
      #11380 - 11/03/04 10:05 AM

Ray,

I never said I could do it with open sites, with the exception of my Lott I do not own a bolt gun with open sites.
Mickey had made the qualification of scoping the double due to the range so I assumed the same would apply for the bolt and this is what I was speaking of. I did not clarify my comment when I spoke of bolts though I was grouping smaller caliber percision rifles in the mix as I was speaking in general trems.

If you would like to offer that bet against one of my bolt guns with a scope I will take it, simply name the time three shots all touching a thousand a group with a .30cal rifle. I would think you would know better then this though as I am no exceptional shot by any means and know many people who can do this with enough frequency they would come out on a offer such as yours. But as I said if the offer stands for a scoped rifle I am in.

James F. Nixon III


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NONE
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Re: Accuracy of Double Rifles? [Re: mickey]
      #11381 - 11/03/04 10:16 AM

In reply to:

James

Given that the 470 is not a long range rifle would you shoot a 458 or a 458 Lott with open sights at distances that you would not shoot your 470? If your 470 had a scope would you shoot at the same distances as you would a 458 with a scope?




Mickey,

No I would not shoot my .458 at any distance further then the .470 . I simply think of these calibers as DG rounds and I don't want a wounded buff running around I tried to take at 300yards with any open sighted or scoped rifle of that caliber. I think a double in 375FM with a scope would be good to the longer ranges your speaking of, I have never shot one of these so I do not know but I see no reason why they would be less the adequate for medium game at range. As for me I shoot my big boar bolt tighter at 100 then my double, but both are more then accurate at 100 for killing game shots on DG.

James F. Nixon III

Edited by NONE (11/03/04 12:03 PM)


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unspellable
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Re: Accuracy of Double Rifles? [Re: mickey]
      #11415 - 12/03/04 01:29 AM

As with any other rifle, some doubles will be good, some poor.

I have seen a 375 H&H Flanged Magnum shoot a 3/8 inch four shot group at 100 yards.

As for plains game or buck, if you look up a list of the old British double cartridges you will find quite a number of small bore high velocity numbers intended for stag or what have you at 200 or 300 yards. The 275 H&H Flanged Magnum being the first one that pops into my head. Some of these rifles may even have been regulated for 200 yards.

Another interesting point is that I have seen a heavy double place four shots in a paper plate at 75 yards faster than a heavy magazine rifle. This was a speed contest, placing the shot anywhere inside the paper plate counted. if the shot touched the edge it did not count. Both shooters allegedly being experts with their respective rifles.

Bottom line is, "Does it shoot better than you do?" I ran into a fellow who looked down his nose at my double because he claimed it wouldn't deliver bench rest accuracy. So when's the last time he went hunting with a bench rest rifle?

I once won a case of beer by going up against a guy with a scoped 30-06 rifle at a hundred yards while I had an iron sighted 6.5 inch S&W 44 Mag with 240 grain cast at 1000 fps. No handicaps either way. I won the case of beer. The difference being that I had been religiously practising with my revolver where as he hadn't been practising with the rifle.


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DUGABOY1
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Re: Accuracy of Double Rifles? [Re: unspellable]
      #11420 - 12/03/04 04:29 AM

Gentelmen, I authored the string on AR that Micky is commenting on here, And I think everyone has the wrong idea about what a double rifle can be relied on to do in the accuracy depertment! They are as accurate as any other rifle in individual barrels, much more accurate than most people can shoot. With one barrel they are simply single shots, and are quite supprising when you learn to shoot them.

First off double rifles weren't only made for the hunting of dangerous game. Thousands were made for deer hunting in Europe, and the UK. Many of the rifles will shoot very well out to 200 yds, and some farther, with both barrels, and many will shoot as far as the shooter can shoot with one barrel. The shooting that brought about the string on AR was a member who also posts here, (Nitro 450 No2) shooting a coyote with a 9.3X74R Chapuis S/S double rifle, with a scope mounted. The two shots were made from a kneeling position, at a later lazer measured range of 271 yds. The coyote was standing quartering toward the shooter, the first shot takeing the coyote a little far back into the last rib, and gut. The coyote began to spin in place. The second shot took him through the ribs ending the affair! This was with a in Nosler partition the right barrel, and a Woodliegh soft in the left. He loads the rifle this way for better bullet performance at different ranges. He has shot this rifle on the range on paper, so much he can shoot it in his sleep, and regularly shoots it at the 200 yd range for group with both barrels, and different loads. Folks a coyote is a small target at 271 yds, and two shots were fired, and both hit the vitals which are about 10" round. That is fine shooting from field possitions even with a scoped bolt rifle.

There is a need to know how far your double will shoot accurately,not only with both barrels, but with one barrel. The man who shot that coyote, is a police sniper on a police swat team. He also has a 450#2 NE double that has engraved on the left barrel the reads: This barrel is accurate to the sights out to 300 yds. this rifle has one standing for 50 yds, and three flip-ups #1 100 yds, #2 200 yds, and #3 for 300 yds. In this case the rifle is set up so one may use the rifle like a single shot out to 300 yds and both barrels under 100 yds.

The above system only makes sense! If you are hunting Buffalo, and see a world record sable at under 300 yds you still have a chance at him. Nobody is suggesting you shoot Buffalo at over 100 yds, for the first shot, but one that is getting away wounded, is another story. To carry any rifle in the field, and not know what it is capable of at any reasonable range is, IMO, simply stupid!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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Bladeshop1
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Reged: 21/03/04
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Re: Accuracy of Double Rifles? [Re: mickey]
      #12114 - 21/03/04 06:21 PM

I was expecting much better accuracy from my Searcy, especially after all I've heard and read. Just bought a used .470 PH Searcy that I am told was built about three years ago. Just shot it today for the first time. At 25 yds. the right barrel is dead on, but the left is 4-5" right. No 50 yd. to shoot from at this range. At 100 yds. the right barrel again is dead on and the left is not even close to on paper. Holding 6-8" left of target produces a hit that is just on the right edge of a 16" target. Was going to take this gun to Africa soon, but am not very confident in this gun now. Can this be easily remedied or is this gun a wreck looking for a place to happen? May be forced to take my .416 bolt action Dakota instead if this can't be fixed in a reasonable amount of time?

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475Guy
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Re: Accuracy of Double Rifles? [Re: Bladeshop1]
      #12125 - 22/03/04 02:03 AM

Since you state that you bought a USED Searcy, maybe the guy you bought it from, buggered up the rifle in some way. I suggest that you contact Mr. Searcy and relay the problems you have in having both barrels shoot to the same POI.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.


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mickey
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Re: Accuracy of Double Rifles? [Re: Bladeshop1]
      #12128 - 22/03/04 02:40 AM

Bladeshop1

Welcome to Nitro Express. Bladeshop. Are you a knife maker? How about some pics and information on your work?

I also think you should contact Searcy and probably get them to look at it. Regulation is a tricky business but their reputation is better than that. It may cost a bit but it would be worth the price to have a rifle that shot better. Ray Atkinson here says his shoots 2 touching at 50 yards. That is not difficult in a well regulated rifle and yours should do that also.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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NE450No2
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Re: Accuracy of Double Rifles? [Re: mickey]
      #12131 - 22/03/04 03:35 AM

Gentlemen
In preparing my 9,3x74R Chapuis double for Africa I mounted a scope with an illuminated reticle for Leopard. [Swarovske 1.5-6x with circle dot reticle]
I shot the rifle at 200 yards, prone off of my backpack. I fired one 286 woodleigh Soft, two 286gr Nosler Partitions and two 285gr .035jkt Hawks from each bbl, letting the rifle cool between each bullet type. I had one target for the right bbl and one target for the left bbl. The right bbl made a 1 3/4"x 2 1/2" group. The left bbl group was 2 1/4"x 3 1/2". The right bbl group was point of aim, the left bbl group was a little lower and to the left. The combined group for all bullets from both bbls was
3 1/2" x 3 1/2". I made no adjustments for the changes in the wind while shooting the different loads, using the same point of aim for all shots. Not many bolt rifles can shoot 3 different bullets into the same group at 200 yards.
As a control I shot my Accuracy International 308 sniper rifle inbetween the 9,3 groups. The AI was shot off the bipod with no rear bag. It shot a 3" x5" group, once again I made no adjustments for the changes in the wind which was gusting up to 20mph-22mph.
I was more than happy with the 200 yard results.
I will be trying the 9,3 at 300 yards next.


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DUGABOY1
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Re: Accuracy of Double Rifles? [Re: Bladeshop1]
      #12133 - 22/03/04 04:25 AM

In reply to:

Just bought a used .470 PH Searcy that I am told was built about three years ago.




First off the "PH" model has not been available for more that about a year, and a half, so that was the preveous owner's first lie! What you have,most likely, is a field grade, not a PH, or it is newer that the guy said.

IMO, there is deffinetly something wrong with the rifle,or the loads you are useing! My guess is someone screwed over on that rifle! Take the barrel set off the rifle, hold it by the breech end, rapp it hard against your other hand, and try to detect any viberation, or rattle. If none is detected, try the same thing with a rubber hammer, strikeing the barrels about 3/4 of the way to the muzzles. If any ratteling viberation is detected, the barrels have let go of the solder between the barrels. This could be caused by haveing something like a horse rolling over it, or shooting a hot load with a mono-lithic solid. In any event if the solder has let go, it will have to be re-regulated, and Butch is the proper one to do that job.

I would give Butch a call, and see what he reccomends. I'm sure he can make the rifle shoot the way, I suspect, it did when it left his shop! If nothing else, he may give you a load, that will regulate in your rifle! I have never seen a Searcy that would not shoot into at least a 3" group at 50 yds.

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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4seventy
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Re: Accuracy of Double Rifles? [Re: Bladeshop1]
      #12147 - 22/03/04 09:51 AM

Bladeshop welcome.
What loads are you shooting in the Searcy and how are you steadying/holding the rifle when shooting at those distances?

Edited by 4seventy (22/03/04 09:54 AM)


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mstarling
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Re: Accuracy of Double Rifles? [Re: 4seventy]
      #12204 - 23/03/04 05:24 AM

Bladeshop,

Check the barrels as was described above. If they don't seem to be separated or separating in some way ... depending on what you're doing ... the rifle may yet be fine. Some questions:

1) Have you talked with Butch Searcy about the load or ammo for which the rifle was originally regulated?

2) Are you using ammunition for which the rifle was supposedly regulated, or are you working up your own loads?

I have a .470 NE Field Grade of about the age you believe yours is. My first experiments with it worried me some. After corresponding with Mr. Searcy and getting a lot of data from others, the rifle is now shooting like gang busters with both low velocity cast bullets and with 500 gr jacketed bullets at speed.

Loading for a double and learning to shoot it takes a little longer than for a bolt gun.

Some experience from a beginner ... It's much easier on you if your rest can be at a height that allows you to stand while working with the rifle ... big guns push vigorously and can be pretty uncomfortable at the bench.

When resting the rifle, your off hand must be under the forearm with the fingers wrapped around the barrels. The rest should not touch the rifle!

Let us know how things work out. For me the Searcy was the investment of a lifetime, and I was GREATLY relieved when it (I) started to work well.

Best,

mike





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Bladeshop1
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Re: Accuracy of Double Rifles? [Re: 4seventy]
      #12216 - 23/03/04 08:01 AM

I was shooting from a bench rest with 500 gr. Federal Trophy Bonded soft points. The forend was just resting on the shooting bag. I checked the barrels as decribed by Duggaboy and others and everything seems fine. No solder separation, etc.

I spoke with Butch today, and as I quickly learned, this is a very small community, and he already new about my problem with this particular rifle. I am sending the gun out today to him today for review to determine what might have happened with it after it left the factory. If possible, he is going to try and have it back in time for me to take on my trip. Talk about incredible service!! Even with this minor set back, I'm still glad I purchased a locally built Searcy double. I am confident after speaking with Butch that he will be able to reconcile whatever this gun was subjected to, and that it will shoot tight groups soon once again.

Will provide an update on the findings once I hear back from Butch in a couple of days.

Edited by Bladeshop1 (23/03/04 08:25 AM)


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atkinson6
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Re: Accuracy of Double Rifles? [Re: Bladeshop1]
      #12218 - 23/03/04 08:29 AM

You should rest the forend on your hand with a double rifle, they are a different world...Sounds like your gun needs to be re-regulated for that load...It is probably regulated for 108 grs of IMR-5831 or ?????

I sure would not use it in Africa as is, that is for sure a good way to bite the big one...

I have talked to a lot of Searcy owners, and I shoot one myself and they all shoot exceeding well and much better than the average British rifle..

I have owned a lot of British double rifles, most shot about 3 or 4 inches and a few shot an inch or a little more (2 out of about 13 shot under 2 inches to be exact)..It is considered OK by many experts that 4" is an acceptable group from a double, thus the "minute of Grapefruit", often quoted...that is not exceptable for me because I might just want to shoot something coming my way in the eye and if its got a 4" eye, I really am in trouble, and on a different planet..

A bolt gun on the average is much more accurate than any double rifle, and a really accurate bolt gun is more accurate than any double rifle at any range..Bolt guns own the veld until the yards get this side of 25, then the double is boss of the vuga...I love them both, but I know the limitations of both and never the twain shall meet.

TAKE NOTE:"
If you want to know how well your gun will shoot then shoot several groups with each individual barrel..The gun is going to regulate only as well as the WORST barrel will group....





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