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Ripp
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500/416 experience's
      #121598 - 20/12/08 06:50 AM

Has anyone hunted much or shot the 500/416?? If so, curious on your experiences on performance.

Thank you

Ripp

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ozhunter
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: Ripp]
      #121623 - 20/12/08 11:48 AM

Ripp,
Since you like the 416cal this would be a great option for a Double, IMHO.
Would be a rifle/ calibre for following Lion, Buff and Ele down on the Chewore .


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Caprivi
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: ozhunter]
      #121634 - 20/12/08 01:29 PM

WR Ammunition, who along with Krieghoff, developed this round states in there data that is uses a 410 at 2300fps for 4700 ft/lbs. Depending on bullet construction I am left with the assumption that it performs the same as any other 416. So from that I would again assume like the other 416's that it is too big for medium game and too small for big game. Just my opinion of course.

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mickeyModerator
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: Caprivi]
      #121636 - 20/12/08 01:34 PM

Not to get too far off topic, but why not , are you saying that you beleive the various 400's are too small for Big Game?

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Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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GarBy
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: mickey]
      #121751 - 21/12/08 04:37 PM

I have a K-gun in 500/416 and with 106 gr of H1000 and 410 gr Woodleighs, I get an actual chrono'd velocity of 2330 fps. Recoil is on par with 450 NE, 470 NE, etc....no worst, not much better...if at all. It is, essentially a 416 Rigby in a double.

Haven't taken it anywhere but the range so can't comment on game performance, but, like I said, it's a Rigby in a double.

Gary


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Ripp
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: Caprivi]
      #121825 - 22/12/08 07:22 AM

Quote:

So from that I would again assume like the other 416's that it is too big for medium game and too small for big game. Just my opinion of course.





Curious as to what you base your obviously flawed perception on.

You should read the article recently written in this months issue of RIFLE SHOOTER by a gentleman (Ganyana)--who has been in on culls of over 30,000 elephant in his lifetime..and worked 20 plus years for the parks department in Africa...while he promotes the .375 as being an o.k. caliber..he also stated that for larger game--it is a definite step up on shock to the animal..and in his opinion, one of the best choices one could make for a one-rifle safari...with regards to any of the .416's

Secondly, those that do spend a lot of time in the field, PH's, are drifting the way of the 416 in several of the camps I have been too in Africa..guessing, based on the fact they are in the field every day..that might speak of reason and experience as well..

Then there is the PH (Lynn) I visited with from Botswana, who stated the perfect caliber for "their" larger than normal elephant, in his opinion, needs a caliber or 40 or bigger with a velocity of 2300 or more to do the job from any angle..again, his opinion, but with 100 plus under his belt..will heed his words of advice..

Finally there is myself who has shot everything from a duiker to elephant..none requiring a follow up shot.total with a 416 Rem alone is over 30 animals...even though usually pay the insurnace just the same, which I would do if I was shooting a 338 or .577...while I too, have used a .375, will never go back to one after the 416...as stated by my experience as well as all the "experts" I have visited with, the proof is in the pudding, or in this case, the shooting..

Ripp

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Ripp
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: GarBy]
      #121833 - 22/12/08 07:34 AM

Quote:


Haven't taken it anywhere but the range so can't comment on game performance, but, like I said, it's a Rigby in a double.

Gary





That is what I have read as well..if they are cranking out at 2300+ fps with a 400 gr slug--would make for a very versatile double..IMHO...

Ripp

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GarBy
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: Ripp]
      #121878 - 22/12/08 11:55 AM

Ripp....I should add that this particular double is very accurate with the H1000 loading. The load is actually a grain or so under what the factory sent me as a regulation load. 2330 fps with a 410 gr 416 bullet should do anything you would want it to on any game animal. Taylor stated himself that he wished Rigby had come out with a double version of the 416 bolt gun....Krieghoff, among a few others, did. I think it's a great caliber....the recoil being similar to 450/470 class aside.

Gary


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Ripp
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: GarBy]
      #121886 - 22/12/08 01:55 PM

Gary

I have been reading quite a bit about it.--plan to stop by their booth when at SCI this year..kind of wish I had a chance to fire one of theirs off before I take the plunge if I do...guess we'll see what they are willing to negotiate..

Currenlty have a 470 in W/R that is very comfortable to shoot...could not say that about the Merkel I had earlier--guess it just didn't fit me..as I think they are a very well made gun for the money..

Looked at a 500 3" last year that had a great target as well...

Thank you for the info..

Ripp

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mickeyModerator
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: Ripp]
      #121891 - 22/12/08 02:29 PM

Ripp

There is a gun range close to Reno that I know gets used by buyers at SCI. It would not hurt to ask if you can test fire a rifle. They may let you if they think you are a serious buyer.

Good Luck.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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JPK
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: Caprivi]
      #121898 - 22/12/08 03:31 PM

Quote:

I would again assume like the other 416's that it is too big for medium game and too small for big game. Just my opinion of course.




I share this viewpoint, but in regards to elephants only. Not from the point of view that it won't work, 400grs or 410grs at 2250 has always worked, but from the point of view that it is less than ideal and that a 450, 470 or 500 is the better choice. So does every PH I know who does any significant amount of elephant PHing, including a couple who use 416's. The 416's aren't the stoppers the big bores are and that is simple fact.

Imo, this really only becomes a significant issue if a hunter is going to hunt a number of elephants. And while an ugly situation can be encounter on day one of hunt one, it becomes more likely the more elephants one hunts. And more likely as a hunter begins to want to close closer and closer, if he chooses to - and it seems that this is a trend with those who end up shooting more than a few elephants - and more likely when you throw tuskless hunting into the mix.

Be cautious regarding Ganyana's opinions on cartridges. He was severly wounded by poachers during the Rhino Wars and his shooting shoulder was badly damaged, leading to a severe bias against big bore rifles of every descripition. He is also not nearly as experienced as you report. Further, he has a strong bias against a client carrying a big bore rifle and does not believe it is either a good idea or neccessary. Much of his bias comes from his few clients - he PH's only occassionally and not even what would be considered part time - being unaccustomed to recoil. More bias comes from his viewpoint that you should trust your life to your PH, a view that I find, uhh, umm, well lets be polite and just say wrong. No PH, no matter how good, will always shoot perfectly, always have a decent brain shot opportunity, always see the elephant that is going to be a problem, and the thicker the bush the more likely the trouble. Seems too that the more elephant you hunt, the relatively more thick bush you will end up seeing.

Also, Ganyana, according to his own words, still uses a 458 Lott much of the time while PHing for elephants. Especially when the bush will be thick.

Some things to consider.

From my point of view, it is neither fish nor fowl, which caan make it just about right or not. Equiped with a good detachable scope system, it would be a fantastic all rounder. Perfect for lion, fine for leopard, buff, everything else and with good velocity ofr relatively flat trejectory. But not quite ideal for elephant. So for general hunting it would seem super. At the same time, recoil is significant. So I end up wondering why not a 450/400 with the same scope system. Enough for elephant, but even less ideal, fine for all else, maybe a little slow for lion and leopard and for longer ranges, but flat enough. Easy to shoot and if you look, available in a lighter rifle.

FWIW, I went bigger and smaller, with the smaller a 375. I made the choice before becoming adicted to elephant hunting, but now that I am addicted, it seems just about right. Take away the serial elephant hunting and then then the big bore becomes really optional, imo.

JPK


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JabaliHunter
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: JPK]
      #121918 - 22/12/08 10:51 PM

To paraphrase Ganyana´s own words in the article - the .400s are the dividing line between hunting rifles and stopping rifles.... A hunting client does not need a stopping rifle. This is the reason why he recommends the .400s (.500/.416, .450/.400, .404, .416, etc) as the ideal rifles for hunting clients, accompanid by a .375. He also stated, however, that hunting elephant cows and in thick bush required a stopping rifle and that he used a .404 and a .450NE as stopping rifles. However I take that with a pinch of salt because pretty much all the advice (including recent books by Harland, Nyschens, etc, etc) suggest that the .404 was not powerful enough for elephants in thick bush and that serious elephant rifles start with the .450s. I think this also relates to the type of country where they are hunting - in more open country, the .416 may be more suiable (Selby in Kenya springs to mind).

Edited by JabaliHunter (22/12/08 11:05 PM)


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Der_Jaeger
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #121920 - 22/12/08 11:43 PM

I am a true fan of big bore rifles and had a .460 Weatherby for years that I shot quite a bit. I've even shot for Krieghoff at the various Vintage Cup events using the .500 NE. I love them. I now own a .416 Weatherby. However, show me a .416 with a good bullet that will not penetrate at least as far as any big bore .45+ caliber. The energy transferred by the bigger .416's. i.e. Weatherby, is at least as great as most of the .45's and sectional density is greater with the heavier bullets. Any caliber from .243 up through .45 can be classified as neither fish nor fowl depending how it's decribed. I can make the "fish nor fowl" argument for any caliber mentioned in that range and make it soundly enough where I would eventually believe it. If I were to make a choice on a true stopping rifle I would choose something in the .50 caliber range but I also believe the .416 would do the same thing. A stopping rifle is only a stopping rifle if it stops the game you shoot at and that only happens when it's hit in the right spot and a deep penetrating .416 shooting a 400 grain Barnes is going to penetrate more than adequately and much better than most. A miss is still a miss and a miss with a .45 isn't going to impress a 10,000 pound animal any more than a miss with a bullet that's 42 thousandths of an inch smaller.

--------------------
Jerry -
a wandering spirit chasing Autumn skies and the call of sporting roads ahead.


Edited by Der_Jaeger (23/12/08 08:43 AM)


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JPK
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: Der_Jaeger]
      #121941 - 23/12/08 06:07 AM

Assuming that the bullets remain in the elephant and relying on factory ammunition data, the energy transfer from a 410gr solid fired from a 416/500 or 416 Rigby, 410grs at 2300fps, is less than that transfered by any of the 458wm (some factory ammo but not all), 458Lott, 450NE, 450NE No2, 450/500, 465H&H, 476WR, all of the 475NE's and the 500NE. This is simply because all of the big bores have more energy than the medium bore 500/416 or the 416 Rigby.

The 500/416 and 416 Rigby, 410grs at 2300fps = 4702ft/lbs energy.

The least energy produced by any of the others is 4930ft/lbs produced by the 450NE 3 1/4" and the 465H&H(except some weak 458wm factory ammo; 458wm solid bullet ammo can be found from lower than the 416 numbers up through 5570ft.lbs.)

Sectional density numbers for the standard bullets are as follows, in order:

458wm 500grs .341
458 Lott " "

500/416 410grs .338
416 Rigby " "

476WR 520grs .328

All 450's 480grs .327

470NE 500grs .318

465H&H 480grs .313
500NE 570grs "

Yes, a 416 Rigby or 500/416 would be expected to penetrate more than any of the other rounds except the 450 Lott, which has equal velocity and greater sectional density.

No the stopping effect will not be that same between the big bores and the 416's unless the brain or spine is hit. Yes the big bores have proven over the last century and more that they are more reliable for stopping elephant charges. Not all elephant charges are stopped by a brain or spine shot, I'd venture that most are stopped with a missed brain shot. And the stopping reliability goes up as calibre, bullet weight and energy go up, as proven repeatedly for more than a century. An opinion shared by Nychens, Taylor, Harlan, Thomson, almost every experienced elephant hunter who has voiced an opinion, even including Ganyana.

But don't believe me or history, just watch Buzz Charlton's DVD "Hunting the African Elephant" and count how many times he says, "...if the hunter had been using a rifle that shot a 500gr bullet, this elephant would have gone down..." BTW, Buzz shoots a 416 Rigby.

As I wrote in my post, the more experience you have the more likely you will encounter trouble, and the more likely you will go looking for it as well, with a desire to close closer, and to hunt in thick bush. That is why consideration should be given to what the rifle will be used for.

BTW, I know five guys on this board who have stopped elephant charges. So it isn't uncommon to have to. Not all of those elephants stopped were brained, about half that I know of were stopped with imperfect brain shots by big bore rifles. And anyone who thinks their shooting will be perfect everytime an elephant is bearing down is just kidding themselves.

JPK


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Der_Jaeger
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: JPK]
      #121946 - 23/12/08 07:45 AM

All very good points, JPK. I have never hunted elephant and, of course, never faced a charge by one. The flavor of my .416 is the .416 Weatherby shooting the 400 grain Barnes bullet. At more than 6500 ft. lbs., it certainly ranks right up with the best. Like I mentioned though, I really do like the big bores and if I ever got the chance to hunt elephant, it would be with a .500 NE.

I think we got a bit off of the intent of this thread which was experiences with the .500/.416 of which I have none I think the .416 serves a very valuable role in Africa and is much, much, more deserving than to simply state that it is neither fish nor fowl, as stated by another previously, and therefore too small for dangerous game and too big for plains game.

Krieghoff seems to be selling a fair number of the .500/.416's.

--------------------
Jerry -
a wandering spirit chasing Autumn skies and the call of sporting roads ahead.


Edited by Der_Jaeger (23/12/08 08:41 AM)


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Anonymous
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: Ripp]
      #121951 - 23/12/08 08:09 AM

Ripp,

If you like a 416 Rigby you will like a 500/416 as well. Its an excellent choice for a (1) carry rifle on safari imo. Though I have never owned one, my father has had several, and he speaks very highly of the cartridge. If you prefer a lighter weight double as he does, this would be a great choice.

It carries moderate pressure ranges as specified here:
39,885 psi (2,750 bar), Copper crusher method
44,962 psi (3,100 bar), Piezzo method

The bullet weight, velocity, and energy is nominal for big game:
Bullet of choice: Woodleigh softnose and solid 410 grains (26.6g)
Velocity: 2,330 ft. sec. (710m/s )
Energy at muzzle:4,940ft. lb. (6,700 J)

JPK is correct that it carries the same characteristics as the 416 Rigby [my favorite bolt chambering], however the 500/416 has a flanged 3 1/4” case for easy extraction. I don't think terming it as a "medium bore cartridge" is accurate though.

I guess it just depends on what you plan to hunt with it, and in what conditions you are hunting. No matter what, it would certainly make a great addition to your fine collection of goodies.


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bonanza
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: Der_Jaeger]
      #121952 - 23/12/08 08:13 AM

I can't think why the 500/416 was developed, when the 500/450 is more versatile - at least on paper. The 500/416 will only be chambered in a DR, so its flat-shooting credentials are kind of moot. Leave that for .375 H&H double rifles.

I can shoot 350-400-480-500 grain projectiles all at about 2150 fps in my 500/450 double for a variedly of game.

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Ripp
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: JPK]
      #121953 - 23/12/08 08:29 AM

Quote:


No the stopping effect will not be that same between the big bores and the 416's unless the brain or spine is hit. Yes the big bores have proven over the last century and more that they are more reliable for stopping elephant charges. Not all elephant charges are stopped by a brain or spine shot, I'd venture that most are stopped with a missed brain shot. And the stopping reliability goes up as calibre, bullet weight and energy go up, as proven repeatedly for more than a century. An opinion shared by Nychens, Taylor, Harlan, Thomson, almost every experienced elephant hunter who has voiced an opinion, even including Ganyana. JPK





JPK

Think this has gone off on a different direction than I had planned after yesterday's post..I was more so, comparing the .375 vs the .416-as in .416 Remington or Rigby which based on my info and reloads are tooling along at around 2400 to 2450fps..so, ME is around 51 to 5200 ft.lbs..--and yes, per your info..every PH I have talked too, read about, etc.. all state the .416 is decidedly better than the .375 in terms of KO power...this, along with the availability of bullets for the reloader, in my opinion, makes it a better overall gun when one is hunting in a dangerous game area..which is also a critical component of this oveall equation..

As to penetration, based on my experience and what I have read, the .416 traveling at the speeds listed above will, in most cases pentrate as well as even the 458 Lott-- with much less recoil..

Per the article I read by Ganyana and actually in Boddington's new book, SAFARI RIFLES II, as well as 2 PH's I have visited with in Africa on this topic, it is suggestd that some of the Nitro cartridges do not have enough velocity to penetrate the larger bulls skulls from any angle, with the key word there being "any"...

In the article by Ganyana, he stated they had a 500 Nitro 3" with an 18" barrel for "close" work that failed to penetrate on numerous occassions and doubted a 24" barrel would have made much more of a difference..Boddington suggests similar in his book, that several of the older calibers work well in 99% of the situations, but, as you suggested, its the 1% that get ya...

I watched a bull take not one but two, dead on shots into the head with a .577. bull was coming in, head down, while it stopped him, it certainly did not drop him...again, shot placement, imo, is the key, especially on a frontal brain shot..

While I don't have 1/10th the experience you do on elephant,hopefully one day I will, but on the one I did shoot with my .416, tuskless cow in Zim, she was coming in at a slightly quartering angle, shot hit above her right eye and exited behind her left ear..as far as I know, its still going..

As often stated, you want to get a good debate going, start disucssing calibers...personally, I like them all and own most of them including several in .375 H&H's, 416's, and 458's along with one .470 double..personally , when I go back, I am taking the .470 Nitro and .416 Rem..bolt gun..has worked for past 4 trips, figure it will work again...if not, its been a hell of a ride..

Ripp

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Ripp
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: bonanza]
      #121954 - 23/12/08 08:33 AM

Quote:

I can't think why the 500/416 was developed, when the 500/450 is more versatile - at least on paper. The 500/416 will only be chambered in a DR, so its flat-shooting credentials are kind of moot. Leave that for .375 H&H double rifles.

I can shoot 350-400-480-500 grain projectiles all at about 2150 fps in my 500/450 double for a variedly of game.




++++

Playing devils advocate, same/similar can be shot in the 500/416 only at a bit greater velocity..

Ripp

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ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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JPK
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: Ripp]
      #121959 - 23/12/08 10:58 AM

24" - 18" = 6" .... 6" x 25fps/inch = 150fps.

This is a TREMENDOUS, HUGE difference. An 18" barreled NE is an abortion from the ballistic perspective alone. I won't do the math, but that 500 or 577 or whatever didn't have the umph to push that bullet far into the head of any elephant.

Penetration potential is a simple mathematical proposition. You need a combination of energy, derived from velocity, and bullet weight for frontal area, or SD. Most combinations that work and are shootable are known. Bullets shape may have some influence, material, etc, but moving downward out of the box for velocity is a recipe for failure. As an example, the preformance of a 500gr Woodleigh solid at 2050fps does not compare to the performance at 2145fps. You would hardly believe that the same bullet out of the same rifle produced such different results. On the other hand, too much velocity should be traded for more bullet diameter and weight, imo.

Few of the big bore NE rounds, in real actual rifles with typical and proper length barrels - 24" - 28", produce velocity much beyond what is needed to do the job.

And there is the beauty of it. Rather than produce velocity which leads to more penetration than required, they push larger and heavier bullets for the same or similar recoil. The better to stop an elephant.

2300fps is the factory nominal velocity of the 416 Rigby and the 500/416, and the velocity at which your 500/416 will be regulated. So 2703ft/lbs of energy or so is what you will have to work with.

Big bore definition (John Taylor's) = 450+. Large medium bore = 416. Medium bore = 375 - 318wr.

If you are comparing the 500/416 or 416 Rigby to the 375H&H, then it is a different ball game.

As I mentioned earlier, I chose bigger and smaller than the 416 because I suspected that more was needed or less and the 375 is legal if nessecary because of ammo or rifle issues with the big bore. I am happy with my selections, they have worked well for me and I feel no need to change things, which is actually pretty remarkable.

My comment regarding the 416 being neither fish nor fowl was not meant to be a slight, just to point out that its strength lies in verstility, and not in specialty. It is heavy for an all rounder and light for elephants. The same could be said of the 375, but it is lighter for the smaller stuff (good) and even lighter when considered for elephants (bad) or buff.

In the end, it is your choice and your rifle. I am merely trying to point out that what the rifle will be called on to do, and do most often, is a critical consideration.

I will repeat though that not every bad situation provides even the opoortunity for a successful brain shot and no ones' shooting improves with a pissed off elephant busting through the bush and bearing down from seven or eight yards. Those who merely chant, "... if you hit them in the brain it isn't an issue..." need a does of reality.

JPK

Edited by JPK (23/12/08 11:01 AM)


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #121962 - 23/12/08 11:48 AM

Quote:

To paraphrase Ganyana´s own words in the article - the .400s are the dividing line between hunting rifles and stopping rifles.... A hunting client does not need a stopping rifle.




Does he like shooting his (few) clients animals for them?

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John aka NitroX

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Ripp
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: NitroX]
      #122045 - 23/12/08 11:56 PM

Quote:

Quote:

To paraphrase Ganyana´s own words in the article - the .400s are the dividing line between hunting rifles and stopping rifles.... A hunting client does not need a stopping rifle.




Does he like shooting his (few) clients animals for them?





If he doesn't , his PH friends do as that was the jest of the article I read---that more and more PH's were finishing animals for their clients.. basically, from what I was reading,,,most are not prepared with many of the shots presented in Africa on dangerous game..sad commentary IMO, but trurer than most will admit per what I have heard from PH's .

Ripp

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Ripp
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: JPK]
      #122046 - 24/12/08 12:11 AM

Quote:

24" - 18" = 6" .... 6" x 25fps/inch = 150fps.

This is a TREMENDOUS, HUGE difference. An 18" barreled NE is an abortion from the ballistic perspective alone. I won't do the math, but that 500 or 577 or whatever didn't have the umph to push that bullet far into the head of any elephant.

JPK




And that is my point when pointing out that the actual velocity of factory loaded .416 REms are at around 2450 fps--which is huge compared to 2300 in these lower velocity cartidges..

I agree with most of what you said-- but don't with regards to the .375, especially when hunting in dagerous game areas..imo,a good way to get you butt stomped...there is a noticable effect on game when shooting a 416 compared to a 375...same can be said when comparing the 416 to a 458 Lott..one argument however is MANY do not shoot a .458 Lott well..where as not so much a point with the .416--typically if you can shoot a 375 well, you can a 416 also..and depending on how/what you use for reloads, 416 to 200 yards is just as versatile..95% of your shots will be much less than that...actually a mere fraction of that..and when it comes to elephant--a tenth of that..

Another point I feel you basically confirm in your last explanation, is velocity is needed to penentrate, again, from ALL angles...my point is 2150 fps does not give you that from all angles..which may or may never be necessary..but since we are discussing penetration and the killing power of said cartridges, it is one thing to be considered..

Agree with you assessment, we all use what we feel comfortable with..you, the 458--me, the 416...and we are both happy so we should stick with them I guess..enjoyed the discussion...can usually learn quite a bit on this site..perfect point is this thread...thanks..

Now, I need to see if I can catch a plane to Minneapolis...Happy Holidays..

Ripp

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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: Ripp]
      #122054 - 24/12/08 01:17 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

To paraphrase Ganyana´s own words in the article - the .400s are the dividing line between hunting rifles and stopping rifles.... A hunting client does not need a stopping rifle.




Does he like shooting his (few) clients animals for them?





If he doesn't , his PH friends do as that was the jest of the article I read---that more and more PH's were finishing animals for their clients.. basically, from what I was reading,,,most are not prepared with many of the shots presented in Africa on dangerous game..sad commentary IMO, but trurer than most will admit per what I have heard from PH's .

Ripp




I wouldn't want to hire a PH with that sort of attitude. I'm there to hunt myself and if that means going into thick bush because it is necessary, then I don't want an egotistical PH telling me to stay behind or whatever his attitude is.


RIPP

Don't have direct experience on either the .500/.416 or the other .400s but am intrigued by both.

The .400's sound like excellent choices in a lighter more handy double.

The .500/.416 has the extra velocity but trades off on extra weight and recoil.

A choice between them ...

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Ripp
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: NitroX]
      #122058 - 24/12/08 01:34 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

To paraphrase Ganyana´s own words in the article - the .400s are the dividing line between hunting rifles and stopping rifles.... A hunting client does not need a stopping rifle.




Does he like shooting his (few) clients animals for them?





If he doesn't , his PH friends do as that was the jest of the article I read---that more and more PH's were finishing animals for their clients.. basically, from what I was reading,,,most are not prepared with many of the shots presented in Africa on dangerous game..sad commentary IMO, but trurer than most will admit per what I have heard from PH's .

Ripp




I wouldn't want to hire a PH with that sort of attitude. I'm there to hunt myself and if that means going into thick bush because it is necessary, then I don't want an egotistical PH telling me to stay behind or whatever his attitude is.



Agree totally, and fortunately have never had that experience--but see it on TV and read about it quite a bit...guess that is one thing you should sort out before you start the show..

Ripp

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JPK
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: Ripp]
      #122063 - 24/12/08 02:14 AM

Rem 416 factory quoted velocity = 2400fps. But All I've ever read is that they run 2250fps or so.

If you want an opinion comparing the 416 Rem and the 458wm, you need look no further than Alan Shearing of Charlton McCollum Safaris. Alan moved from a Model 70 in 458wm to a Model 70 in 416 Rem because he had shot out the barrel of his 458wm and it came to the point that it would no longer shoot accurately and needed to be rebarreled.

I had the opportunity to share a camp with him in November and he bemoaned the "loss" of his 458wm, much prefering the 458wm to the 416 Rem.

Allan is a bolt rifle guy, but extending his preference, he made it clear that he prferred 500grs at 2100fps to 400grs at 2250fps. In other words, this elephant hunting PH made it clear, as every PH I have ever spoken to or almost every one who has voiced an opinion, he preferred the big bore to the medium bore. Or almost direct comparisions, he preferred the ballistics of the 450NE or 470 to the ballistics of the 500/416.

Also, with the penetration that I've seen with my 458wm and that of the 470, I'm finding it hard to imagine a shot angle that would provide enough elephant head to not reach the brain. Any angle that I can imagine that might prove an issue for the 450 - 470 class ballistics poses an equal issue for ANY rifle because the only angles that might prove a penetration challenge include the tusks and tusk sockets. And its the ivory and bone that are the issue, not the distance from POI to brain. In other words, the concern is regarding whether any bullet will hold together in thaose densest of dense materials. Of course, more velocity = more concern for bullet integrity too.

As I've said, I am a great fan of enough penetration, but after a point, imo, it is better to trade some "excess" penetration for more bullet diameter and weight.

BTW, and FWIW, the vaunted and legendary penetration of the 375H&H shooting 300gr solids at 2550fps does not equal the penetration of the 458wm shooting 500gr Woodleigh solids at 2145fps. I know this from direct comparisons in elephant heads.

You have sold yourself on the 500/416, that is clear. I hope it proves to deliver just what you are looking for.

Merry Christmas,

JPK


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Ripp
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: JPK]
      #122078 - 24/12/08 06:24 AM

JPk.
Not heading out today, flight cancelled...storm both here and in Minneapolis..

The velocity I got was what I actually chronographed shooting it out of two different bolt 416's that I have..one custom shop Remington..the other, a higher end custom with a Schneider barrel..both spit them out at 2440 to 2450 or so...

As to the 500/416..no, I am not sold on i, just checking and like different calibers...in reality, I really like the 500 Nitro 3"---but not so sure it will do anything more than my .470 double I already have..I realize it shoots a bit heavier bullet --but not sure it would give any more penetration than the .470..

As to the amount needed for elephant..again, I am only going off of what I have been told by Lynn, the PH in Zim who has quite a bit of experience in Botswana --who stated on more than one occassion while I was there this year..that he has seen several instances where the 2150 was not enough to penetrate the bigger bulls...then I read it again in Boddingtons new book--and finally the article I read last week..between Lynn the PH and Boddington, there is close to 200 elephants shot..so figured they had some knowledge I could learn from..

As I think about this, and after watching the 2 dvd's on Boddington on Elephants, it is quite clear, it really does not matter it you shoot them with a .275 or a 600 Nitro..if you don't hit the brain, they ain't going down ...there are several shots in the DVD series I watched where more than one shot was fired on charging elephant..just as often as not, they did not go down if not hit correctly...

Curious question though--Have you hunted the big bulls in Botswana?? and if so, what was your experience there?? Lynn the PH, stated he has never had penetration problems in Zim..but has several times in Botswana..I never have...and this could be again, much to do about nothing,, but as I stated earlier, they have the experience with them, I do not, so will probably go with what they suggest..

Take Care

Ripp

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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: Ripp]
      #122092 - 24/12/08 09:50 AM

Well gents, mainly because I had some loaded rounds, but partially because you all got me fired up...I took the K-gun out today. Had crappy weather at 71* and sunny, but I made do. Same 410 Woodie softs and solids and same 108gr soft and 106.5gr solids loading of H1000...with Fed 215's of course. I think I lied....my 450 3.25" Searcy kicks MORE than the 500/416. That being said, the 500/416 will wake you up from a nap. I had forgotten just how accurate that gun is.
I personally think that a 410gr, .416 diameter bullet is about perfect for most anything out there....if you do YOUR job. I have not shot an elephant yet...2010...but I have shot buff, with both a 470 double and a 404 bolt gun. Both dead. This all being said, if I was strictly hunting elephants, I would choose the gun I did choose...a 500 Jeff bolt. However, if both buff and elephant were on the hit list and I had to take only one rifle, I would take a 416 in a minute....actually my 500/416. Taylor even states that for all around use aganist dangerous game in heavy cover, the 416 Rigby is about ideal....and a 500/416 loaded as I have it...is a 416 Rigby. In addition, my 500/416 velocities are REAL VELOCITIES taken 10' from the muzzles with an Oehler chrono. Robertson in his book states that some of the old velocities were a mite overstated. Regardless, a 500/416 double is one heck of an effective weapon if you hit him/her correctly. As big of an impact as my 500 Jeff....nope...but still a BIG wallop.
Plus, I'd make sure my PH wasn't carrying any "baby" rifle such as a 416 to back me up.

There's my $.05 worth.

Ripp....go get a 500/416 and I'll share some other load data with you....but I haven't been able to improve upon Krieghoff's H1000 data.

Merry Christmas to all.

Gary


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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: Ripp]
      #122103 - 24/12/08 12:25 PM

Quote:

As I think about this, and after watching the 2 dvd's on Boddington on Elephants, it is quite clear, it really does not matter it you shoot them with a .275 or a 600 Nitro..if you don't hit the brain, they ain't going down ...there are several shots in the DVD series I watched where more than one shot was fired on charging elephant..just as often as not, they did not go down if not hit correctly...




I'm not an expert, but disagree with that statement in bold. They may not die, but may well drop stunned even unconscious.

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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: NitroX]
      #122129 - 24/12/08 02:52 PM

Quote:

Quote:

As I think about this, and after watching the 2 dvd's on Boddington on Elephants, it is quite clear, it really does not matter it you shoot them with a .275 or a 600 Nitro..if you don't hit the brain, they ain't going down ...there are several shots in the DVD series I watched where more than one shot was fired on charging elephant..just as often as not, they did not go down if not hit correctly...




I'm not an expert, but disagree with that statement in bold. They may not die, but may well drop stunned even unconscious.




This is true. More frequent with cows than bulls, by alot. But either way a close miss may save your bacon, or that of the PH, trackers or game scout - if your using a big bore.

See again Buzz Charlton's DVD, where his refrain is, "...if the shooter were using a rifle shooting a 500gr bullets, this elephant would have dropped..." Recall, Buzz shoots a 416 Rigby.

JPK


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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: JPK]
      #122199 - 25/12/08 12:46 AM

Quote:

JPk.

As to the 500/416..no, I am not sold on i, just checking and like different calibers...in reality, I really like the 500 Nitro 3"---but not so sure it will do anything more than my .470 double I already have..I realize it shoots a bit heavier bullet --but not sure it would give any more penetration than the .470..

As to the amount needed for elephant..again, I am only going off of what I have been told by Lynn, the PH in Zim who has quite a bit of experience in Botswana --who stated on more than one occassion while I was there this year..that he has seen several instances where the 2150 was not enough to penetrate the bigger bulls...then I read it again in Boddingtons new book--and finally the article I read last week..between Lynn the PH and Boddington, there is close to 200 elephants shot..so figured they had some knowledge I could learn from..

As I think about this, and after watching the 2 dvd's on Boddington on Elephants, it is quite clear, it really does not matter it you shoot them with a .275 or a 600 Nitro..if you don't hit the brain, they ain't going down ...there are several shots in the DVD series I watched where more than one shot was fired on charging elephant..just as often as not, they did not go down if not hit correctly...

Curious question though--Have you hunted the big bulls in Botswana?? and if so, what was your experience there?? Lynn the PH, stated he has never had penetration problems in Zim..but has several times in Botswana..I never have...and this could be again, much to do about nothing,, but as I stated earlier, they have the experience with them, I do not, so will probably go with what they suggest..

Take Care

Ripp




Ripp,

I think most NE rifles will provide more penetration than the 470, if you're shooting the original loads. Most vintage rifles regulate at about 2025 or 2050fps it seems. But most newer rifles are regulated with the Federal load, which is hotter at about 2100 - 2150fps. Now 50 - 125fps doesn't sound like much, but it is when discussing penetration and the lower load is not all that far from minimum. The PH I elephant hunt with most uses a 470 and his rifle's performance wants for nothing.

I have not hunted Botswana bulls, but PH's I know have. They find no difference between big bulls any where. And Botswana bulls are not the largest, I've been told, the largest come from Kruger/Ghona Rhe Zhou. Perhaps the best example is Ivan Carter, who hunts quite a bit in Botswana and uses a 450NE 3 1/4" Heym. Ivan is still in love with his rifle; that would not be the case if it didn't provide the penetration required, or the stopping power required. Ivan likes to get close, and for non target bulls, has been know to approach until he can wrap the bull with the butt of his rifle. That is a man with (over?) confidence in his read of elephants and in his rifle too, eh?

Rather than a couple of guys with only the experience of a couple of hundred eles, matched in aggragate here on this forum, I'd rather rely on Richard Harlan and Ron Thomson, who between them killed roughly 9,000 elephants. They shot all manner of elephants from the huge Gona-Rhe-Zhou bulls to cows to youngsters. They used the 458wm with factory loads to do this. Neither reports any problem, ever, with their 458wm load performance. They used Winchester factory loads, which are beat by the 450NE.

Its true that bulls don't go down with missed brain shots a majority of times or even all that frequently. But, if the proverbial s--t hits the fan, dropping a bull isn't what you need, it is stopping the bull. Big bore NE rifles have a much better track record of doing this than any 416 or 404 or whatever. Watch again Buzz Charlton's DVD and count again how many times he repeates, "...if the hunter had been using a rifle that shot a 500gr bullet this elephant would have dropped..." Cows, more likely to be trouble to begin with, drop regularly from missed brain shots - so long as you are using a big bore.

If it were my choice, I'd stick with the 470 and use the savings on another bull quota. If the itch was just too bad, I'd go and get the 500.

BTW, for any of the frontal brain shots I've made or tried, if you were to expand the penetration required to brain the elephant by 50%, the results would still be the same, full penetration of the brain cavity and into the neck. For side Brain shots, I don't know since every one - except one that failed to penetrate at all - exited, but one.

No bull elephant is half again larger than the ones I've killed.

JPK


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Ripp
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: JPK]
      #122200 - 25/12/08 01:04 AM

Quote:

Quote:

JPk.

Ripp,

I have not hunted Botswana bulls, but PH's I know have. They find no difference between big bulls any where. And Botswana bulls are not the largest, I've been told, the largest come from Kruger/Ghona Rhe Zhou. Perhaps the best example is Ivan Carter, who hunts quite a bit in Botswana and uses a 450NE 3 1/4" Heym. Ivan is still in love with his rifle; that would not be the case if it didn't provide the penetration required, or the stopping power required. Ivan likes to get close, and for non target bulls, has been know to approach until he can wrap the bull with the butt of his rifle. That is a man with (over?) confidence in his read of elephants and in his rifle too, eh?

Rather than a couple of guys with only the experience of a couple of hundred eles, matched in aggragate here on this forum, I'd rather rely on Richard Harlan and Ron Thomson, who between them killed roughly 9,000 elephants. They shot all manner of elephants from the huge Gona-Rhe-Zhou bulls to cows to youngsters. They used the 458wm with factory loads to do this. Neither reports any problem, ever, with their 458wm load performance. They used Winchester factory loads, which are beat by the 450NE.

If it were my choice, I'd stick with the 470 and use the savings on another bull quota. If the itch was just too bad, I'd go and get the 500.

BTW, for any of the frontal brain shots I've made or tried, if you were to expand the penetration required to brain the elephant by 50%, the results would still be the same, full penetration of the brain cavity and into the neck. For side Brain shots, I don't know since every one - except one that failed to penetrate at all - exited, but one.

JPK





Man--have to admit---love this thread...

Most of the people you mentioned, I have actually met---Harland lives 2 blocks down from Lynn the PH I discussed--Ivan and I hung around a bit together last year at the SCI show in Reno...by the way, I had to laugh a bit on the Boddington Elephant DVD..as in how Ivan got that gun..per Ivan to my very ears, that was a GIFT by one of his clients as a "tip"...not that is a heck of a gift..



Agree with what you stated in regards to penetration, have not done the tests myself, but by what I have read, it is suggested the 450 and 465 actually do a bit better job than the 470 as to penetration...believe Taylor states that as well..

Have not made up my mind on anything..checking out my options...do agree with the post above however, not to beat a dead horse, but could not sleep last night, so at 2AM was reading Taylors book..he did state in his opinion, for thick or thin skinned game, he can find no better choice than the .416....so he does add some credence to the whole equation..personally one of my .416's has followed me on 4 trips so far..and God willing, it will come along again..BUT, if I am out soley for elephant..will keep looking for other options...more guns is good..
However do agree, makes more sense to take the $$ and buy another tag..



Thank you for your info...as I mentioned, you have shot more elephants than anyone I know other than Boddington, Carter, etc...so really do appreciate your input and advice..

Merry Christmas to all

Ripp

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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: NitroX]
      #122214 - 25/12/08 02:02 AM

Quote:

Quote:

As I think about this, and after watching the 2 dvd's on Boddington on Elephants, it is quite clear, it really does not matter it you shoot them with a .275 or a 600 Nitro..if you don't hit the brain, they ain't going down ...there are several shots in the DVD series I watched where more than one shot was fired on charging elephant..just as often as not, they did not go down if not hit correctly...




I'm not an expert, but disagree with that statement in bold. They may not die, but may well drop stunned even unconscious.





John,

Perhaps I should have elaborated a bit more..what I should have said was it isn't going to kill them..it may turn them or stop a charge or temporarily tip them over, but you had best get right after it as they will get back up, with hell coming for breakfast ..

I do have Buzz's dvd, and it is awesome...but, also have Carter/Boddington's--numerous hits to the skull with BIG BORES...no brain..no ground stain..

Ripp

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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: Ripp]
      #122216 - 25/12/08 02:11 AM







John,

Perhaps I should have elaborated a bit more..what I should have said was it isn't going to kill them..it may turn them or stop a charge or temporarily tip them over, but you had best get right after it as they will get back up, with hell coming for breakfast ..

Ripp





Exactly! Again, when someone misses the mark, 42 thousandths of an inch in bullet diameter is not going to impress a 10,000 lb. animal one bit. Give me at least 400 grains, good velocity, and a damned tough bullet.

--------------------
Jerry -
a wandering spirit chasing Autumn skies and the call of sporting roads ahead.


Edited by Der_Jaeger (25/12/08 02:11 AM)


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9.3x57
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: Ripp]
      #122218 - 25/12/08 02:14 AM

Fascinating thread about a topic I likely will have no experience with, personally.

A couple questions:

First, you guys are discussing the technical merits of one cartridge vs another.

But what about what happens after you add the human element?

From my experience selling guns years ago, some of them in calibers you mention and to fellows going after big stuff, and range time with shooters in quite a number of states here, I'd say, dare I say, I do not believe many or even most of the guys hunting elephants even can shoot their heavies well. Did I say that? YES. And that is what I suspect drives some PH's to "shoot them for them" so-to-speak.

Mere money CAN buy elephant hunts as you guys know. A guy does not have to be a shooter or even a hunter to hunt elephants. You guys think and put the effort into something that others may merely "pay for".

I know the real answer to those heading for Africa is; "Get out and shoot your rifle and learn your rifle". More shooting for most of those worthies only means developing a worse flinch. So, seriously, JPK and RIPP and others, in the real world of hunting, where fellows are going to maybe if they are lucky shoot one or less than a half dozen elephant, what calibers would you recommend?

A .375 they can consistently hit a cinderblock with at 50 yards or a .458 that...

Can you guys make a "broad sweeping", reality-based {limitations of most hunters} recommendation? I bet there are those who are reading this thread who fit into the category of potential hunter of elephant but who are "normal" and cannot hit well with a big rifle...

I closely knew a father and son who had experience on hundreds of elephant in the Congo and remember what they told me, but I am very interested in what you guys think.

In other words; "How much does caliber make up for what might {likely...?} be poor shooting...?"

One last thing NOT related directly to the .416...I am very unsure of Taylor's actual field experience compared to many well-known and proven, modern PH's. I always take his stuff with a grain of salt, tho for sure he seems to have been proven right in most circumstances. Personally, I think he may have been as much of a perceptive barfly as he was a hunter of vast elephant killing experience. Another topic for another day...

Again, thanks for providing a rivetting {no pun intended...} and penetrating {...} discussion!!

--------------------
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: Der_Jaeger]
      #122235 - 25/12/08 04:30 AM

Quote:







John,

Perhaps I should have elaborated a bit more..what I should have said was it isn't going to kill them..it may turn them or stop a charge or temporarily tip them over, but you had best get right after it as they will get back up, with hell coming for breakfast ..

Ripp





Exactly! Again, when someone misses the mark, 42 thousandths of an inch in bullet diameter is not going to impress a 10,000 lb. animal one bit. Give me at least 400 grains, good velocity, and a damned tough bullet.




Der Jaeger,

You are wrong. More than a century of history proves it. I refer you again to Buzz Charlton's DVD. What you say just isn't true. If it were than the fellows who made their living and risked their lives would have been using the 416 Rigby. But, until recently, the Rigby was never very popular in africa, nowhere near as popular as the the 450 NE's alone.

.042", about 10% more energy and about 25% more bullet weight. Not insignificant.

JPK


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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: Ripp]
      #122237 - 25/12/08 04:54 AM

Ripp, I have shot many more elephants than Boddington. That isn't bragging or saying much because he hunted but one elephant long ago and then didn't return to elephant hunting until very recently.

Ivan on the other hand

It is as easy to hit the brain with a 375H&H, 416 of any description or 450 class rifle, assuming the same sights. There is no difference with any of the cartridges when the brain is hit. The significant difference is when the bain is not hit, but you can't rely on it since there isn't always a significant difference. So, Why not use the more powerful rifle, you don't foreclose making the right shot to begin with and using a big bore might end up saving the day; if its gotten ugly and an ele has come charging, the big bore may well save your life or someone elses. It's saved mine, or a tracker's, twice. Refer back to Buzz'z DVD!

If you're on Taylor's chapter about the 416, it isn't much different than the chapter about the 450/400. Lots of praise, etc, etc, etc... blah, blah, blah... Keep reading, eventually you'll get to either the elephant hunting chapter where he begins with 450's as minimums in the thick stuff (but wanders) or to his description of the rifles he used, a 450NE No2 and a 465H&H, for the great, great bulk of his elephant hunting.

Better to practice what Taylor (and Nychens and Harlan and Thomson and... and...) practiced than to practice what he preaches. Same is true of Ganyana who uses (or used) a 458 Lott. Use a big bore!

Merry Christmas!!!

JPK


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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: Ripp]
      #122262 - 25/12/08 02:32 PM

Quote:

Perhaps I should have elaborated a bit more..what I should have said was it isn't going to kill them..it may turn them or stop a charge or temporarily tip them over, but you had best get right after it as they will get back up, with hell coming for breakfast ..

I do have Buzz's dvd, and it is awesome...but, also have Carter/Boddington's--numerous hits to the skull with BIG BORES...no brain..no ground stain..




I agree.

However there has been cases of a missed brain shot by a small margin on a bull still killing the bull. Shock alone? Amazing but true.

I agree however that hitting the brain is FAR FAR better than missing it! (joke only) Especially if Tumbo is thundering down!

On my limited experience on cows I have been happy to see the brain leaking out of the ears.

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Ripp
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: NitroX]
      #122281 - 26/12/08 01:57 AM

I really appreciate everyones thoughts on this..for me, and I assume those who have as well, one can literally remember the actual hunt while discussing elephants and calibers..everything from JPK discussing all is exploits with elephants to John seeing the brain coming out of the ears..good stuff...

JPK, you have my attention...had no idea you have taken that many elephant...impressive..
So, what velocity is your ammo running and what bullets do you use? I know we have discussed this before, but just want to confirm..I do have a german built Sauer in 458Win. at home..bought it from a trust funder whose grandfather had hunted in Africa many times..had it checked out for working order..shoots quite well...

One thing I will state, in a dangerous game area such as Chewore North, I will never go on a long walk/hunt carrying anything less than a .375 but again, prefer my 416 instead..too many close calls making the 30 cals look quite small..and shooting softs too boot...

I read a really good article last evening in HANDLOADER magazine on reloading the .308--while I realize entirely different circumstances--it provided info on how various bullet types held up under the test in regards to accuracy, weight retention, bullet consistency, etc..very indepth article and well worth the read no matter what you are shooting..

Thanks again and Merry Christmas..

Ripp

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JPK
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: Ripp]
      #122287 - 26/12/08 04:01 AM

Ripp,

Like I was saying having shot more elephants than Boddingtoon has is no real accomplishment as I understand things. As I recall Boddingtons own writing, he had only shot one elephant until recently. He was nutso for buff hunting and concentrated on that.

I have taken eighteen now. But that isn't as many as some of the other members here, including, I think, some who have posted on this thread. IIRC, ten of the elephant I have shot went down to brain shots, at least one was a second shot and the ele did not drop at the first. The other eight, well, lets just say that if at first you don't succeed, try , try again.

I now shoot 500gr Woodleighs for the first shot, at 2145fps, and 450 North Fork flat nose solids in the second barrel, at about 2200fps. Ballistics essentially identicle to those of the 450NE's or the Federal 470 loads.

All of the elephant I have shot have been with the loads listed above, but two. Those two were shot with 500gr Woodleighs at 2050fps, which is enough, but 2145fps provides substantially more of everything, knock down or out effect, penetration...

Since I have been a one gun guy with respect to elephants, I have been very curious and inquisitive regarding how other cartidges perform. I've tried penetration test using .458" bullets at various velocities in dead elephants and I've tried my 375H&H solid load too. For other cartidges, I've gotten PH Rich Tabor to shoot a couple of 470 loads with 500gr Woodleighs for testing and have been able to dig for a couple of Buzz's 416 Rigby solids in elephant bodies as well, shot into two elephants on which I missed the first brain shot. I have relied on what PH's have observed when guiding clients, especially when discussing other cartridges I have no experience with. I can tell you that the two PH's I know who use 416's, Buzz Charlton (Rigby) and Allan Shearing (Remington), both regard the 450-470 class as better alternatives for elephant hunting. On the other hand, all who shoot 458wm, 458Lott or Ackeley or 470's have been fully satisfied with their rifles. For a good number of the later group their first rifles were 375's which they were pleased to be able to move away from, and upward from.

I agree with you 100% regarding carrying a 375H&H or better in elephant heavy areas. As one writer put it, "When in elephant country, carry an elephant rifle." We've had ele problems before when doing nothing but hunting for sable or warthog or whatever. I load one or two softs and then the rest solids. My 375 with a soft has provided the warning shot over an eles head, keeping the two 470 solids in the PH's rifle in reserve in case they were needed.

If I ever find that I need or want to carry a light rifle, I think I'll load three solids down and top off with a solid on top and one up the spout. A 30-06 220gr solid would be better than a stick, which is what the rifle is without solids.

If you choose the 500/416, I am sure you will find it sufficient. And perfect for cats.

JPK


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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: 9.3x57]
      #122288 - 26/12/08 04:49 AM

Quote:

Mere money CAN buy elephant hunts as you guys know. A guy does not have to be a shooter or even a hunter to hunt elephants. You guys think and put the effort into something that others may merely "pay for".




Very true.

I have never shot a cow, just bulls (7) so far. I can say from my own personal experience that many times over, the hunt would have put me in great peril had I not had the right gun. As such, my 470, 577 or 600 is what I pull when hunting Elephant, not because other calibres won't do the job, but because that is where my "faith" lies. It really comes down to what you feel comfortable with, while making certain it has enough uuuummff to get the job done. Taking into account that you may very well be put into a tight and very dangerous spot, this is where velocity and energy play in to it. A 470 is a great one carry gun imo, for all African bush hunting, a 500/416 would not be my first choice for the biggest game however.

JPK, 18 is an impressive number. I can tell you have learned a lot from being around them so much. They really are very smart magnificent animals. I have always felt a weird high after taking one, part total adrenalin and glory, to sadness and short lived depression for ending the life of such a fabulous beast. It's like there life flashes inside of you afterward as you swallow there soul and make way for camp and LOTS more Brandy to take it all in..


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: ]
      #122363 - 26/12/08 11:54 PM

Quote:

JPK, 18 is an impressive number.




Indeed.

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John aka NitroX

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ErikDAdministrator
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: NitroX]
      #122367 - 27/12/08 01:50 AM

FWIW, since Ganyana was mentioned on the thread, I got this e-mail from him a couple of days ago:

"HI Erik

Cannot log on long enough to make a post- Please comment that I briefly used a .458 Lott- Shot one hippo with it. Currently still use my 9,3 for everything and carry a .500/416 to back up clients or looking for wounded things in the thick stuff

Cheers"

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JPK
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: ErikD]
      #122369 - 27/12/08 03:16 AM

"I can tell you have learned a lot from being around them so much. They really are very smart magnificent animals. I have always felt a weird high after taking one, part total adrenalin and glory, to sadness and short lived depression for ending the life of such a fabulous beast. It's like there life flashes inside of you afterward as you swallow there soul and make way for camp and LOTS more Brandy to take it all in.. "

The day I shoot an elephant and don't feel the mixed emotions, the adrenelin, the sadness, and all,... is the last day I'll shoot an elephant.

Based on the last elephant hunt I've got many more to go though. I was shaking like a leaf after the last one. And its funny, when the shot goes perfectly and the rear end sags, the head rises, the shakes begin just about immeadiately. But when the shot ain't perfect there is a long delay and the emotions are not so intense.

In regards to anyone who thinks elephant hunting is just paying money to stroll up and shoot an elephant, well, they just need to shut up go try it. Better have a good fitting and well broken in pair of boots though.

Eric,

Thanks for the relay. Must be a pita over in Zim. In and out for the Lott for Ganayana. Too much recoil for his shoulder, I guess. Hopefully he will be able to rspond before Mugabe passes away or hell freezes over, or maybe we'll all get lucky and...

JPK


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9.3x57
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: JPK]
      #122371 - 27/12/08 04:20 AM

Of the PH's CURRENTLY guiding elephant hunts, what is the most common caliber used?

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JPK
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: 9.3x57]
      #122407 - 27/12/08 02:33 PM

Those I know, or at least those that come to mind this evening:

Richard Tabor - 470
Peter Wood - 458 Lott
Colin Van Der Linden - 458 Ackley
Tierry LaBatt - 458 Lott
Butch Coaton - 458wm
Richard Cooke - 470?
Winston ? - 458wm
Buzz Charlton - 416 Rigby, but has purchased a 450NE and is awaiting ammo and/or components
Myles McCallum - 458 Lott?
Allan Shearing - 416Rem, but awaiting the rebarrel of his favorite, the 458wm
Terry Fenn - 458wm
Ivan Carter - 450NE
Andrew Dawson - 470
Steve Robinson - 505 Gibbs

I'll add to this list as more come to mind.

JPK

Edited by JPK (27/12/08 03:00 PM)


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ozhunter
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: JPK]
      #122438 - 28/12/08 12:10 AM

Ian Gibson 458win
Stu Taylor 458win
Mike Taylor 458lott
Andy Hunter 416rem
Charlie Stanton 375H&H
Matt Stanton 470NE
Bill Lemon 460W
Johnathan Taylor 458Win
Rex Hoets 500J
John Sharp 470NE
John Greef 470NE


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Der_Jaeger
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: ozhunter]
      #122442 - 28/12/08 01:30 AM

Andre Roux - .416 Taylor
Cliff Walker - .577
Jeff Rann - .500/.465
Roger Whittall - .500/.465
Mike Payne - .470
Johan Calitz - .470 & .500
Geoff Broom - .450 Dakota
Strang Middleton - .425 WR
Peter Butland - .416 Rigby

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a wandering spirit chasing Autumn skies and the call of sporting roads ahead.


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9.3x57
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: Der_Jaeger]
      #122446 - 28/12/08 02:02 AM

So far 85% for .450+ guns. Counting the two guys that are stepping up as .450+'ers.

What do these fellows recommend their clients bring with them?

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Der_Jaeger
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: 9.3x57]
      #122449 - 28/12/08 02:28 AM

Quote:

So far 85% for .450+ guns. Counting the two guys that are stepping up as .450+'ers.

What do these fellows recommend their clients bring with them?




The survey of PH's in Boddington's new book states the following PH recommendations for all thick skinned game in any cirumstance:

Caliber..................................# Respondents

.470NE ............................... 20
.416 Rem., Rigby, Wby........ 16
.458 Lott ............................14
.458 Win Mag ......................10
.375 H&H, Wby, Ruger..........10
.500 Jeffrey...........................8
.500-3" NE...........................8
.450 3 1/4" NE ...................5
.505 Gibbs ........................ 4
.450 Dakota ........................2
.475 #2 J ............................1
.450 Rigby.............................1
.450 Ackely .........................1
.450 #2 ..............................1
.425 WR ..............................1

--------------------
Jerry -
a wandering spirit chasing Autumn skies and the call of sporting roads ahead.


Edited by Der_Jaeger (28/12/08 02:33 AM)


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Huvius
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: Der_Jaeger]
      #122452 - 28/12/08 04:05 AM

The answering of the last question is where it gets interesting.
There looks to be a real difference between what the PH's use and what they suggest clients bring (other than the 470).
Maybe elephant specific would be different, but for either 458 to be suggested above the 500's (Jeff & NE)etc. is very telling. I think a PH takes into account not only client shooting comfort/ability, but also availability of replacement ammo in case of a mishap etc. That kind of practicality is in their nature I think. That is probably also what leans them toward the 458's for themselves in many cases.
Also, there is a big difference between choosing a gun to take along when hunting with an experienced PH with a stopping rifle and being the PH with the stopping rifle. No matter what the client is using, there are always immediate followups from the PH if needed - not so if you are the PH or on your own such as Taylor was most of the time.

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GarBy
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: Huvius]
      #122459 - 28/12/08 05:47 AM

Craig Robinson (Zim)- 416 Rem
Johnny DuPlooy (Zambia)- 470
Alister Norton (Zambia)- 458 Lott...but understand he's looking for a 500 Double
Abie DuPlooy (Zambia)- 458 Lott
Jeff Rann (Botswana)- 577

That's all I'm aware of......

Gary


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Ripp
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: ozhunter]
      #122463 - 28/12/08 07:11 AM

Quote:

Ian Gibson 458win
Stu Taylor 458win
Mike Taylor 458lott
Andy Hunter 416rem
Charlie Stanton 375H&H
Matt Stanton 470NE
Bill Lemon 460W
Johnathan Taylor 458Win
Rex Hoets 500J
John Sharp 470NE
John Greef 470NE




+++


Lynn -- 416 Rem.
Mark--.416 Rem

Both were PH's for Chifuti at Chewore North when I was there this past summer..sorry, don't remember their last names..

As I mentioned to John, Ian Gibson is staying with me for a few days at the end of Jan. '09..will get his take on this subject and let you know ... as previously stated, he does carry a .458Win --very well broken in..also has a .416 setting around for his clients..I know as I left him 4 boxes of ammo when I left...

I agree with Huvius,,think there can be big difference between what you carry as a client versus what you carry as a PH---think a lot of the people on this site are NOT the norm..at least from what I have seen in camp..quite frankly, many can not shoot, period..let along shoot a true big bore..therein lies one of the problems...and again, bullet placement and bullet performance is everything, especially attempting to brain a elephant..

My first trip to Africa, I, unfortunatley relied on info from some who had never gone to Africa or with little experience...will NEVER make that mistake again..so I am very cautious who I accept advice from anymore..need to see more than words before I am a believer..and even then, keep the questions going...

As JPK and others have stated..I do rufuse to be one of those the PH has to shoot for..that is why I am there and why I shoot a ton before I go..I want the total experience..and if shit hits the fan, I want that too...


Ripp

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ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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Ripp
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: JPK]
      #122468 - 28/12/08 07:51 AM

Quote:

Ripp,

Like I was saying having shot more elephants than Boddingtoon has is no real accomplishment as I understand things. As I recall Boddingtons own writing, he had only shot one elephant until recently. He was nutso for buff hunting and concentrated on that.

I have taken eighteen now. But that isn't as many as some of the other members here, including, I think, some who have posted on this thread. IIRC, ten of the elephant I have shot went down to brain shots, at least one was a second shot and the ele did not drop at the first. The other eight, well, lets just say that if at first you don't succeed, try , try again.

I now shoot 500gr Woodleighs for the first shot, at 2145fps, and 450 North Fork flat nose solids in the second barrel, at about 2200fps. Ballistics essentially identicle to those of the 450NE's or the Federal 470 loads.

JPK






I have loaded the woodleighs as well for my .470's --ordered 100 more of each of the solids and softs..the shoot really well...

For the .416 and the thick stuff, have been using 400 gr A-Frames and 400 gr Barnes solids in the bolt guns..very good performance...and, obviously, the solids on the elephant..

Ripp

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JPK
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: Ripp]
      #122491 - 28/12/08 02:21 PM

Relying on Der Jaeger's count in Boddington's new book, 75 for =/>450+, 27 for <450. Not quite three to one. I'm suprised.

On the PH count, Roger Whittall no longer regularly hunts and is pretty much retired from PHing. His hearing being prehaps the primary cause. But if you were to include Roger, than how about Barry Duckworth with the 458wm and 500NE?

BTW, my eight year old son killed his second whitetail deer this evening, a seven point buck. He made an eighty fivve yard or so shot, with a blackpowder rifle. I'm quite "chuffed!"

JPK


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JPK
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: Huvius]
      #122494 - 28/12/08 02:32 PM

Quote:


Also, there is a big difference between choosing a gun to take along when hunting with an experienced PH with a stopping rifle and being the PH with the stopping rifle. No matter what the client is using, there are always immediate followups from the PH if needed - not so if you are the PH or on your own such as Taylor was most of the time.




I don't entirely agree with this. The PH is not always in a osition to stop a charge or save your bacon. And even the very best in any endevour have off days. The client ought to be prepared for the worst, imo.

Also, for a PH to hold himself out as omnipotent, kinda makes me wonder... I was omnipotent once, when I was a hell of a lot younger and a much, much less experienced fellow. Never when it came to elephant hunting though, I was well past imaginary onmipotence, experience had long, long, long ago rid me of that fantasy.

I read something along the lines of, "Ineed the big bore stopper Bwana, but you, on the other hand, can get by with just adequate..." and I cringe. What happens if... really does happen, even if infrequently.

JPK


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Der_Jaeger
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: JPK]
      #122507 - 28/12/08 10:36 PM

Quote:

Relying on Der Jaeger's count in Boddington's new book, 75 for =/>450+, 27 for <450. Not quite three to one. I'm suprised.

JPK





JPK, just curious.......

Did you think the ratio would've been higher or lower than 3:1 in favor of the .450 and over calibers? It does seem to favor the big bores by a considerable margin. There are other surveys in the book regarding the PH's recommendation for light plains game, heavy plains game, thick skinned dangerous game (stated previously), and the PH's recommendations to clients for a one gun, two gun, or three gun safari. It's very interesting reading especially for myself having never been to Africa yet. 2010 can't come quick enough

--------------------
Jerry -
a wandering spirit chasing Autumn skies and the call of sporting roads ahead.


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JPK
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: Der_Jaeger]
      #122514 - 29/12/08 01:06 AM

Der Jaeger,

With all the apparently phony, or at least innaccurate, hearsay so often repeated about the number of PH's recomending 375's I would have thought the ratio would have been lower.

My own experience regarding PH recomendations (for elephant) runs fairly similar to Boddington's polls, but with less representation of the bigger than 470 rifles. On the other hand, they often come with the caveat, "If the hunter is familiar with his rifle and accustomed to its recoil...," or similar. When the question of what if recoil is an issue is raised then I recall that the 375H&H and the 416's get about equal the number of secondary recomendations. The 375 because it is easy to shoot and the 416's because they offer more performance than the 375, if not as much as the 450's, and are viewed as a plausible compromise.

I've read Boddington's previous book "Safari Rifles." Good info for the most part, but he played favorites and did not do his research in several areas, 458wm performance being one that always comes to my attention. Every time I pull the trigger and see the results, either on the chronograph or on game, or speak with or read of a PH or former elephant culling officer who swears by it.

Fwiw in planning your first safari, while I have a three rifle "African battery," the bolt rifles acquired well in anticipation of my first safari, I can see no NEED for three rifles on a safari featuring dangerous game. I'm a life long East Coast US resident and our deer hunting doesn't often require longer range shooting, though it is there if one wants it. I've always preferred close hunting and shooting. So I'm no long range rifleman and don't see my practicle 200yds limit (a rare, unussually long shot for me) - which seems to match the 375H&H well - as a handicap, but I could easily imagine a fellow who could. So, for me, my double 458wm and a 375H&H, just in case of ammo or other trouble with the big rifle. The 375 offers excellent performance on everything from grysbok to eland and will do the job if required on the largest dangerous game, legally. Also, I'm a lefty, so the improbable odds of finding a left handed dangerous game rifle in a pinch are a strong factor in my choice.

The rifle that has stayed at home is a 30-06, which I think would be a great rifle to hunt almost anything in Africa with, but can't pull the double duty on DG (except leopard) that the 375 can.

JPK

Edited by JPK (29/12/08 01:12 AM)


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Der_Jaeger
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: JPK]
      #122517 - 29/12/08 01:33 AM

Very good advice, JPK. Thank you! I agree on all counts.

I'm enjoying the planning stages of my first safari especially deciding which two rifles I'm bringing. I'm going to be berated by many, but, for good or bad, I like Weatherby rifles and their calibers. I don't want to argue the point, it's simply what I like. I have the following rifles:

.257 Wby
.270 Wby
.300 Wby (2)
.340 Wby
.416 Wby
.375 H&H in a Mauser M03
.338 Win Mag Remington XCR with a custom McMillan stock

I refinished all of my Weatherbys with an oil finish and a London Best Orange pad.

I plan to pair my .416 with either the .338, .340, or a .300. My safari is planned with Jan Oelofse in Namibia for June 2010 and my PH will be Josephus. I'm always open to other opinions on the right rifle pairing. I can handle long range if the situation calls for it having taken whitetail at a bit over 400 yards, a Pronghorn at around 300 (post in Hunting, "My First pronghorn) and a Mule deer and Elk at decent ranges too. I've also taken many at less than 100 yards. My most recent is a Boar taken in Pennsylvania (post in Hunting, "Pennsylvania Boar Hunt").

I guess my point is, like you, I do prefer big rifles and, even though my hunt will primarily include large plains game, my .416 is definitely making the trip. I woill also buy a double rifle but have no idea which one yet. i have the most experience with a Krieghoff in a .500NE.

--------------------
Jerry -
a wandering spirit chasing Autumn skies and the call of sporting roads ahead.


Edited by Der_Jaeger (29/12/08 02:21 AM)


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9.3x57
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: Der_Jaeger]
      #122520 - 29/12/08 02:10 AM

Mmm...

...looking over that list of recommendations by PH's, I seriously can't help but wonder how many of them that recommended the rare cartridges just happen to shoot the same rounds themselves, and made their recommendations because their experience with tourist hunters' shooting ability was so ho-hum they didn't care jack about what caliber the clients brought as long as said clients could leave behind a nice pile of that Golden ammo when they left... {??}

Der Jäger, bringen Sie sein .340 mit genug Patronen und Sie sind fertig für alles in Südwest Afrika!!

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Der_Jaeger
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: 9.3x57]
      #122521 - 29/12/08 02:18 AM

Quote:

Mmm...

Der Jäger, bringen Sie sein .340 mit genug Patronen und Sie sind fertig für alles in Südwest Afrika!!





Ich zustimme! Er ist eins meiner Lieblingsgewehre. Es sein ein guter begleiter bis das .416 auf meiner Jagd

--------------------
Jerry -
a wandering spirit chasing Autumn skies and the call of sporting roads ahead.


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9.3x57
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: Der_Jaeger]
      #122522 - 29/12/08 02:28 AM

Quote:

Es sein ein guter begleiter bis das .416 auf meiner Jagd




Die richtige Entscheidigung!

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Paul
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: 9.3x57]
      #122565 - 29/12/08 04:08 PM

To what extent can the human nervous system really get used to heavy recoil when shooting at inanimate targets? Maybe some individuals can beat their nerves into submission but I'm more inclined to think nerves have their own agenda, and may behave better when facing dangerous game if not tortured beforehand. Dry-firing snapcaps, shooting subloads, sporting clays with a similarly setup shotgun or occasional shooting full-power loads at a charging paper targets - yes, I think these are good ideas. Trying to peen ourselves into shape by continually shooting a full-house .500NE at stationary paper targets - maybe not.

That I have finally opted for a 450/.400 is partly because that's what I could get new without waiting two years - and partly on advice from experienced hunters.

One NT PH said he was alarmed that many clients using big rifles shoot all right with the first shot but are lucky to hit an escaping animal with the second. He was getting a big calibre for himself on the assumption perhaps that we shoot them better when we only shoot in an emergency.

If you hear that I end up on the horns of a dilemna, you'll have the last laugh.


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JPK
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: Paul]
      #122571 - 29/12/08 06:05 PM

Quote:

To what extent can the human nervous system really get used to heavy recoil when shooting at inanimate targets? Maybe some individuals can beat their nerves into submission but I'm more inclined to think nerves have their own agenda, and may behave better when facing dangerous game if not tortured beforehand. Dry-firing snapcaps, shooting subloads, sporting clays with a similarly setup shotgun or occasional shooting full-power loads at a charging paper targets - yes, I think these are good ideas. Trying to peen ourselves into shape by continually shooting a full-house .500NE at stationary paper targets - maybe not.

That I have finally opted for a 450/.400 is partly because that's what I could get new without waiting two years - and partly on advice from experienced hunters.

One NT PH said he was alarmed that many clients using big rifles shoot all right with the first shot but are lucky to hit an escaping animal with the second. He was getting a big calibre for himself on the assumption perhaps that we shoot them better when we only shoot in an emergency.

If you hear that I end up on the horns of a dilemna, you'll have the last laugh.




A fellow named Gregor Woods wrote an excellent book on African Rifles, can't recall the book's title; in it he describes how to become accustomed to substantial recoil. It works, though I do it a bit differently.

Watch a cooking show to confirm that it can be done. Keep an eye on the chef, watch the hot plates and pans and whatnot he handles with out an oven mitt or other substantial protection. Watch him taste food which you would find uncomfortably hot, especially liquids. His hands and tongue are not burned, they are conditioned. Lots of similar examples out there of practice leading to tolerance of things that others would find intolerable, or painful.

Because I hunt ducks and geese in freezing weather frequently, and wish to do so without the discomfort of cold feet, I walk to get my morning newspaper barefoot, even in the snow. When we have snow, I make snow balls and participate in snowball fights with my kids without gloves too. I can pick up decoys and wrap lines without gloves even in well below freezing temps and with ice chunks floating in the water. We hunt in salt water and that doesn't freeze until wel below 32*F or 0*C.

But to give you the idea that recoil tolerance is not too difficult to come by, let me relate our deer hunting situation here. In more than half of my state deer hunting is limited to shotguns shooting slugs. Shooting a typical 7 1/2 or 8lb 12ga slug gun makes shooting a 10lb 458wm or a 470NE seem like a "gentle message." But every year, tens of thousand Marylanders take up their 12ga slug guns and kill about 10,000 deer in two weeks. More recoil here in Maryland in our two week deer season than in all of Africa every year, I'd venture. Then multiply that result by all of the other states with restrictions requiring shotguns and slugs.

Here is how to become recoil tolerant with your big bore rifle - assuming you don't have a 12ga slug gun and don't need to deer hunt with it, because that will definitely do it.

First, don't shoot off a sitting bench, a standing bench is just fine, off hand, etc, but don't shoot off a sitting bench.

If the rifle is new to you or you've laid off for quite some time, load some mild rounds. I load them to 45/70 levels, 500gr @ ~1500fps. Go shoot twenty or whatever, just to become acquanted with your rifle. Even though they won't shoot to regulation, you can still test you shooting because each barrel with print in a consistent place. Remind yourself that your rifle will not actually hurt you. Shoot four full house loads.

Return within one week, and preferrably sooner, and repeat, but shoot some of the light loads and then six or eight full loads.

Repeat within a week, preferrably sooner, but shoot eight or ten full house loads.

Repeat for a month bulding up the number of full loads you shoot and then as nessecary, skipping the light loads and working in another rifle instead, like a 375H&H. Soon shooting one is no different than shooting ten than shooting 20. You will end up looking forward to shooting more and become adicted to shooting the center 2" circle out of the target.

Keep in mind that some days you will just be more recoil tolerant than other days, so if a particular day is uncomfortable, cut back. But return soon. Also, some days your shootng will just be better. The days your shooting is just better, tend also to eb days where recoil is just less for some reason.

Even fully conditioned, I stop at about 20 rounds most of the time for $'s if nothing else. After 25 or so it definitely seems counter productive, unless your on a roll. I've done thrity five developing loads when time was short, but looked forward to some Advil afterwards. 500grs at 2145fps recoil level in a 10 1/2lb rifle.

The key is frequency. Repeat, but on a faster schedule and without the light loads if you've laid of for a bit, up to maybe three months. Repeat the whole proccess if you've laid of for quite some time.

Recoil with a buff or an elephant in front of you, or any game really (just ask the ten thousand Marylanders), will be just sufficient to let you know the rifle fired when you pulled the trigger.

JPK


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Paul
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: JPK]
      #122577 - 29/12/08 08:24 PM

Thanks JPK,
for that reasoned treatise. Yes, you can toughen up to cold, I know.

Would Marylanders shooting slugs mostly be using one-ounce slugs (about 437 grains) at about 1500 fps? Even in light guns that would still constitute a slower push, I should think, than most elephant rifles. The worst part of shooting aimed shot patterns or slugs from a shotgun that I've noticed is a kind of vibration that may be a consequence of the thin barrels.

As has been discussed in other NE threads, I would be tempted to hunt big game with a .577 nitro-for-black express. Sir Samuel Baker's 650-grain bullets at about 1650fps would give that push, hopefully with the barrel mass cutting the vibrations.

My experience with big rifles is so far limited to a 425WR and a light .458WM, neither of which bothered me at the shoulder, though the .458 smacked the cheek a bit. My .338 is heavy and seems not to kick more than a .30/06 but I'm happy to say that when shooting at deer I don't feel any recoil and don't even notice the report. Hopefully my baby elephant gun will give me the same satisfactory results the calibre seems to have given Pondoro.

Cheers
- Paul


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Ripp
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: JPK]
      #122582 - 30/12/08 12:33 AM

Quote:

Quote:


Also, there is a big difference between choosing a gun to take along when hunting with an experienced PH with a stopping rifle and being the PH with the stopping rifle. No matter what the client is using, there are always immediate followups from the PH if needed - not so if you are the PH or on your own such as Taylor was most of the time.




I don't entirely agree with this. The PH is not always in a osition to stop a charge or save your bacon. And even the very best in any endevour have off days. The client ought to be prepared for the worst, imo.

JPK





The reason for this statement is after watching the DVD on elephant hunting with Carter and Boddington..some have no interest in hanging around in the event the shit hits the fan..my wife laughed out loud..when, I believe Mike was hunting with a US client..a cow charged and he was running away before she had 2 steps toward them..so, it really doesn't matter what they are shooting..they are too damn scared to hang around...Ian Gibson told me while I was there, that one of his lion clients would not even come out of the blind until Ian had walked over to the dead lion and poked him with his rifle to make sure he was dead...

While I agree with you in that I prefer to cover my own rear-end.and you probably do as well.you have to realize that is not the norm in the world of the PH...a very high percentage are novice hunters at best and have NO interest in facing a charge..oh, they do around the campfire at night...but in the woods with a nasty heading their way, different story.. .

Ripp

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Ripp
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: JPK]
      #122583 - 30/12/08 12:42 AM

Quote:

Der Jaeger,

With all the apparently phony, or at least innaccurate, hearsay so often repeated about the number of PH's recomending 375's I would have thought the ratio would have been lower.

My own experience regarding PH recomendations (for elephant) runs fairly similar to Boddington's polls, but with less representation of the bigger than 470 rifles. On the other hand, they often come with the caveat, "If the hunter is familiar with his rifle and accustomed to its recoil...," or similar. When the question of what if recoil is an issue is raised then I recall that the 375H&H and the 416's get about equal the number of secondary recomendations. The 375 because it is easy to shoot and the 416's because they offer more performance than the 375, if not as much as the 450's, and are viewed as a plausible compromise.

I've read Boddington's previous book "Safari Rifles." Good info for the most part, but he played favorites and did not do his research in several areas, 458wm performance being one that always comes to my attention. Every time I pull the trigger and see the results, either on the chronograph or on game, or speak with or read of a PH or former elephant culling officer who swears by it.

JPK





As in the case of Safari Rifles II--actually more praise than is warranted IMHO, is given by Boddington on the .458Win...it goes on to say that with todays advancement in powder and bullet technology, there is basically no fly in the ointment with the .458W...also stated that Hornady I believe, is loading a factory load with 2200 fps velocity with a 500 gr bullet..didn't think it could reach that level..curious what the pressures are at that velocity..

Boddington also goes on stating that in his opinion, the 458 Lott is the 45 to go with, in his self reported elephant hunting history..he states his elephant hunting experience is quite a bit more in the past 3 years..at least more than one..as I seen him shooting several in either "Tracks Across Africa" or on the DVD on elephant with Ivan Carter..


Also stated is a quote from Bell who basically stated if you don't place your shot on an elephant it does not matter whether you hit him with 100 or 10 million..your shot needs to find his mark..
Not sure I agree with that totally, as stated, there is evidence the big bores will turn a bull and that includes the .416...

Johan Calitz, who has a ton, (no pun intended) of elephant experience, states he has seen numerous failures by the older big Nitro calibers as to penetration...so, the issue of penetration again is raised..I am not trying to kill a dead horse hear...but, ....there is also a statements made in seveal areas of the book at the 416, in Rigby, Remington, whatever, traveling at 2400 fps with its long for caliber bullet of 400 grs will outpenetrate a .458 with a 500 even at 2200 every time...which makes sense as the 458 has less speed and more surface area to slow it down..also states the .416 will also turn a bull on a charge...

Actually laughed pretty hard when the story of using a .505 Gibbs, Harland shot a cow through both shoulders, the bullet then went on to hit another ele beside the tail and the bullet was found in the front portion of that cow..now that is penetration..

JPK, I agree with you, if all one is going after, is elephant, I will probably grab my double .470 Westley and call it good...but if there are other animals on the plate..believe I will stick with my .416..again, just in my experience, more versatile and all the penetration I need...

Thx

Ripp









--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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Ripp
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: Der_Jaeger]
      #122585 - 30/12/08 12:57 AM

Quote:

Very good advice, JPK. Thank you! I agree on all counts.

I'm enjoying the planning stages of my first safari especially deciding which two rifles I'm bringing. I'm going to be berated by many, but, for good or bad, I like Weatherby rifles and their calibers. I don't want to argue the point, it's simply what I like. I have the following rifles:

.257 Wby
.270 Wby
.300 Wby (2)
.340 Wby
.416 Wby
.375 H&H in a Mauser M03
.338 Win Mag Remington XCR with a custom McMillan stock

I refinished all of my Weatherbys with an oil finish and a London Best Orange pad.

I plan to pair my .416 with either the .338, .340, or a .300. My safari is planned with Jan Oelofse in Namibia for June 2010 and my PH will be Josephus. I'm always open to other opinions on the right rifle pairing. I can handle long range if the situation calls for it having taken whitetail at a bit over 400 yards, a Pronghorn at around 300 (post in Hunting, "My First pronghorn) and a Mule deer and Elk at decent ranges too. I've also taken many at less than 100 yards. My most recent is a Boar taken in Pennsylvania (post in Hunting, "Pennsylvania Boar Hunt").

I guess my point is, like you, I do prefer big rifles and, even though my hunt will primarily include large plains game, my .416 is definitely making the trip. I woill also buy a double rifle but have no idea which one yet. i have the most experience with a Krieghoff in a .500NE.




++++


For what is it worth, Namibia can offer some long shots,,especially on gemsbock...if it was me I would take the 300WBY loaded with 200 gr A-Frames and call it good...will shoot very flat, great BC and SD, plus all the power you need for anything you will meet over there...heck, Boddington shot a very large male lion over there last year with the same load out of a 300 Ultra-mag..

I have taken my .300 HS Ultra-mag on 4 hunts over there --have shot Zebra, Eland, Kudu, gemsbock, waterbuck, etc...and it worked very well on all...in fact, on my last hunt, I took exactly the same selection, with the exception my .416 was in Remington caliber ...and would take that same group again, unless I spent a lot of time in a DG area..then, nothing less than a .375 would go with..

Curious as to how you like your Krieghoff in 500??

thx
Ripp

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JPK
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: Paul]
      #122592 - 30/12/08 01:25 AM

Taylor writes a lot about the 450/400 as an all rounder, as he does the 375H&H, but he used a 450NE No2 or 500/465NE for the great bulk of the elephants he shot.

What ever the load for a slug gun, full diameter, full weight slugs or lighter sub bore saboted slugs, all I have shot seem to recoil within a small range, pretty much the same, all unpleasant, all more than that of any 458wm or 470 that I have shot. Including PH Rich Tabor's 10.5lb 470 - he loads his 500gr solids at 2250fps for hunting elephants (recently Remington has brought out a low recoil slug loading that pushes a lighter slug at lower velocity, but that is a new exception.) Don't forget that recoil is based on the entire ejecta mass, including the wads and sabots and burnt powder.

I have a pamphlet sitting hear that gives info on another Remington loading, it gives a saboted 385gr projectile a 1900fps ride. 1oz slugs generally run +/-1600, same with 1 1/4oz slugs though some offerrings of each run a bit faster or slower. Some or most slug guns have rifled barrels which are quite a bit thicker than regular barrels.

Also, I caught on another thread how you seek muscle tension in your right shoulder when you shoot. I presume you are right handed. This may be an error in so far as recoil tollerance, imo. I find that recoil is least felt when the rifle is held firmly and pulled into the shoulder, but no more. The body should be relaxed. Rock from the hips in recoil. There will be some muzzle rise, but if your cheek is welded to the comb there will be no slap, which can be most unpleasant.

When you shoot game, you will find you shoot with much less muzzle rise, a near absence in 450 class rifles. I suppose this is due to the natural excitement of shooting real game. It is quite apparent in videos. For example, I feel and see the muzzle rise at the range, when not shooting timed series, but video of me shooting elephants shows none.

If you want to see examples for yourself, take a look at either Boddington on Buffalo, where Andrew Dawson turns a charging bull with his 470 or where he shoot a buff Boddington has hit. No muzzle rise. See also Buzz Charlton's first DVD on elephant hunting, watch our own 500 Grains shooting his 500NE. He takes several shots on different elephants in the film. He is relatively relaxed on an insurance shot on a down ele and rocks, but on a charging injured cow, much less. BTW, there is the alternative also seen on Buzz's DVD, with our own Will seen shooting a charging tuskless with his very light weight 416 Taylor, the muzzle rise and cheek slap that are so clearly seen in the DVD just hurts to watch.

The key to shooting well and comfortably a true stopping rifle, as defined by Taylor and history, is dedication to the purpose, time committed and frquency. Thankfully this time commitment and dedication can come in spurts starting months prior to elephant hunts we book and then lying dormant until the next hunt is booked.

JPK


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Der_Jaeger
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: Ripp]
      #122594 - 30/12/08 01:32 AM


Ripp,

Indeed, very good advice. A .300Wby is certainly more than capable. A .300 paired with a .416 is a great combination, but the .300 can easily be a one gun safari if Buffalo were not included. My hunt will consist of:

Gemsbok
Eland
Kudu
Zebra
Black Wildebeest

Buff - hopeful?

Plus, a stringer of baboons

Regarding the Krieghoff, I don't own one and have never owned a double rifle. My experience comes from shooting for Krieghoff at several Vintage Cup events in the Stopping Rifle category. It took a bit to get used to the cocking device, but I really, really like the way the rifle feels and the way that it mounts. For me, the balance is superb. I'm a big Merkel fan and shoot a 247SL in 12 bore, but their rifles simply do not fit me without some alteration to length of pull and drop at comb/heel.

--------------------
Jerry -
a wandering spirit chasing Autumn skies and the call of sporting roads ahead.


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JPK
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: Ripp]
      #122596 - 30/12/08 01:37 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Der Jaeger,

With all the apparently phony, or at least innaccurate, hearsay so often repeated about the number of PH's recomending 375's I would have thought the ratio would have been lower.

My own experience regarding PH recomendations (for elephant) runs fairly similar to Boddington's polls, but with less representation of the bigger than 470 rifles. On the other hand, they often come with the caveat, "If the hunter is familiar with his rifle and accustomed to its recoil...," or similar. When the question of what if recoil is an issue is raised then I recall that the 375H&H and the 416's get about equal the number of secondary recomendations. The 375 because it is easy to shoot and the 416's because they offer more performance than the 375, if not as much as the 450's, and are viewed as a plausible compromise.

I've read Boddington's previous book "Safari Rifles." Good info for the most part, but he played favorites and did not do his research in several areas, 458wm performance being one that always comes to my attention. Every time I pull the trigger and see the results, either on the chronograph or on game, or speak with or read of a PH or former elephant culling officer who swears by it.

JPK





As in the case of Safari Rifles II--actually more praise than is warranted IMHO, is given by Boddington on the .458Win...it goes on to say that with todays advancement in powder and bullet technology, there is basically no fly in the ointment with the .458W...also stated that Hornady I believe, is loading a factory load with 2200 fps velocity with a 500 gr bullet..didn't think it could reach that level..curious what the pressures are at that velocity..

Boddington also goes on stating that in his opinion, the 458 Lott is the 45 to go with, in his self reported elephant hunting history..he states his elephant hunting experience is quite a bit more in the past 3 years..at least more than one..as I seen him shooting several in either "Tracks Across Africa" or on the DVD on elephant with Ivan Carter..


Also stated is a quote from Bell who basically stated if you don't place your shot on an elephant it does not matter whether you hit him with 100 or 10 million..your shot needs to find his mark..
Not sure I agree with that totally, as stated, there is evidence the big bores will turn a bull and that includes the .416...

Johan Calitz, who has a ton, (no pun intended) of elephant experience, states he has seen numerous failures by the older big Nitro calibers as to penetration...so, the issue of penetration again is raised..I am not trying to kill a dead horse hear...but, ....there is also a statements made in seveal areas of the book at the 416, in Rigby, Remington, whatever, traveling at 2400 fps with its long for caliber bullet of 400 grs will outpenetrate a .458 with a 500 even at 2200 every time...which makes sense as the 458 has less speed and more surface area to slow it down..also states the .416 will also turn a bull on a charge...

Actually laughed pretty hard when the story of using a .505 Gibbs, Harland shot a cow through both shoulders, the bullet then went on to hit another ele beside the tail and the bullet was found in the front portion of that cow..now that is penetration..

JPK, I agree with you, if all one is going after, is elephant, I will probably grab my double .470 Westley and call it good...but if there are other animals on the plate..believe I will stick with my .416..again, just in my experience, more versatile and all the penetration I need...

Thx

Ripp





Rip,

I heard about the foot race. Haven't seen the video. I don't think any man can know if he will break or not until he has faced an elephant coming fast at him. It is a truly impressive sight. Interestingly, both Buzz Charlton and Rich Tabor told me that few guys break and run for it. That's good news I guess since it would make for a really uncomfortable evening in camp, I'm sure!

According to Rich and Buzz, not all guys who don't break are contributing members of the team either. Some freeze, some become wild with their rifles... Both had had clients crap or piss themselves. A couple had given up elephant hunting right there on the spot too.

I've seen trackers head for the hills, and I've seen game scouts do so as well, and they're carrying automatic weapons, which scares the heck out of me.

But most guys do all right and both stand their ground and contribute to the common defense as they can, at least that is what I've been told.

JPK


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Ripp
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: JPK]
      #122599 - 30/12/08 01:59 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Der Jaeger,


Rip,

I've seen trackers head for the hills, and I've seen game scouts do so as well, and they're carrying automatic weapons, which scares the heck out of me.

But most guys do all right and both stand their ground and contribute to the common defense as they can, at least that is what I've been told.

JPK





Funny you should state that---when we were chased a bit by a bull this year..one of the game scouts fire a shot over our heads while heading out..Ian ripped him a new one..but after out ears had taken the brunt of his shot...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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JPK
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: Ripp]
      #122601 - 30/12/08 02:26 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Der Jaeger,

With all the apparently phony, or at least innaccurate, hearsay so often repeated about the number of PH's recomending 375's I would have thought the ratio would have been lower.

My own experience regarding PH recomendations (for elephant) runs fairly similar to Boddington's polls, but with less representation of the bigger than 470 rifles. On the other hand, they often come with the caveat, "If the hunter is familiar with his rifle and accustomed to its recoil...," or similar. When the question of what if recoil is an issue is raised then I recall that the 375H&H and the 416's get about equal the number of secondary recomendations. The 375 because it is easy to shoot and the 416's because they offer more performance than the 375, if not as much as the 450's, and are viewed as a plausible compromise.

I've read Boddington's previous book "Safari Rifles." Good info for the most part, but he played favorites and did not do his research in several areas, 458wm performance being one that always comes to my attention. Every time I pull the trigger and see the results, either on the chronograph or on game, or speak with or read of a PH or former elephant culling officer who swears by it.

JPK





As in the case of Safari Rifles II--actually more praise than is warranted IMHO, is given by Boddington on the .458Win...it goes on to say that with todays advancement in powder and bullet technology, there is basically no fly in the ointment with the .458W...also stated that Hornady I believe, is loading a factory load with 2200 fps velocity with a 500 gr bullet..didn't think it could reach that level..curious what the pressures are at that velocity..

Boddington also goes on stating that in his opinion, the 458 Lott is the 45 to go with, in his self reported elephant hunting history..he states his elephant hunting experience is quite a bit more in the past 3 years..at least more than one..as I seen him shooting several in either "Tracks Across Africa" or on the DVD on elephant with Ivan Carter..


Also stated is a quote from Bell who basically stated if you don't place your shot on an elephant it does not matter whether you hit him with 100 or 10 million..your shot needs to find his mark..
Not sure I agree with that totally, as stated, there is evidence the big bores will turn a bull and that includes the .416...

Johan Calitz, who has a ton, (no pun intended) of elephant experience, states he has seen numerous failures by the older big Nitro calibers as to penetration...so, the issue of penetration again is raised..I am not trying to kill a dead horse hear...but, ....there is also a statements made in seveal areas of the book at the 416, in Rigby, Remington, whatever, traveling at 2400 fps with its long for caliber bullet of 400 grs will outpenetrate a .458 with a 500 even at 2200 every time...which makes sense as the 458 has less speed and more surface area to slow it down..also states the .416 will also turn a bull on a charge...

Actually laughed pretty hard when the story of using a .505 Gibbs, Harland shot a cow through both shoulders, the bullet then went on to hit another ele beside the tail and the bullet was found in the front portion of that cow..now that is penetration..

JPK, I agree with you, if all one is going after, is elephant, I will probably grab my double .470 Westley and call it good...but if there are other animals on the plate..believe I will stick with my .416..again, just in my experience, more versatile and all the penetration I need...

Thx

Ripp





Rip,

It only takes one elephant to have more than a ton of experience! About five tons of experience per, I think!

Sticking only to recent published "book loads" 2250fps is possible from a 458wm shooting 500grs out of a 24" barrel. AA2230 is one powder that will do this. See the Hotnaday book, current loads are the same as the previuos manual. This manual was recommended to me by Woodleigh, btw.

My test in winter and in summer with AA2230 show the powder to be pretty temperature insensative, delivering about the same velocity despite 50* or 60*F differences in temps, and also when the gun and ammo are left lying out in +95*F sunny days to heat up.

Also, some pressure test done on my behalf showed that most of the standard 458wm ammo - not the Hornaday Heavy Magnum load - is loaded well below SAAMI specs. My loads, 500grs at 2145fps, out of 26" barrels, is well below max, but over some of the slow factory stuff. I understand, but cannot confirm, that Euro ammo loaded to CIP specs allows a hotter loading.

I wouldn't load a 458wm to 2250fps with 500grs. No need imo. If I had a bolt rifle I would go to 2175-2200fps though. I have a Lott, but that one would be loaded to the similar velocities and not towrd 2300fps if I were to take it elephant hunting. I think a double rifle and elephant hunting go hand in hand. The ultimate choice for the ultimate game and the only situation where, imo, the double shows no real disadvantge and the next choice does and is significantly less than optimal. The more so the thicker the bush. The lions share of the bolt rifle using PH's seem to agree with this too.

For penetration, I'll always refer to Sectional Density and velocity. Two similar solid bullets, say Woodleighs, of equal sectional density will penetrate equally if velocity is equal. Add penetration by adding velocity. A 500gr .458" bullet will yeild better penetration than either a 400 or 410gr .416" bullet given equal velocity because of the higher SD, but when velocity isn't equal... I trade the added penetration of the 416 for the added thump of the 458. I think this is the way to go since the penetration of the 500grers at 2145fps has never been close to wanting. For more penetration, and no visibly less thump the flat nose .458" 450's would and do get my call. I think history is on my side.

When it comes to report of penetration failure with the big NE's, first I always wonder what the bullet was, an old cupro nickel jacketed or a newer Woodleigh steel jacketed, then I wonder about the velocity, then I wonder about the shot angle... Given my experience with two elephants shot with 500grers at 2050fps, I have to think that problems arise in the first two, either the bullet or the velocity, meaning that someone shot old ammo with cupro nickel jackets or it wasn't up to the century plus old, tried and true standard and someone tried to shave some recoil by loading down.

Don't forget, when thinking of bullet length, the work of some fellows, including, I believe, 500 Grains, on rifle twist and solid bullet stability and penetration in game. The same bullets at greater spin rates produce greater penetration in game. Corrally?, "Longer bullets need more twist to equal the penetration of shorter bullets, given the same velocity?" The Rigby is a slow twist relative, I think the Rem is much fater twist.

Fun debate, and without the acrimony and personal attacks that some debates, especially on other forums, devolve to.

JPK


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9.3x57
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: JPK]
      #122602 - 30/12/08 03:42 AM

Quote:

Don't forget, when thinking of bullet length, the work of some fellows, including, I believe, 500 Grains, on rifle twist and solid bullet stability and penetration in game. The same bullets at greater spin rates produce greater penetration in game.
JPK




JPK: Do you have a link to this?

I'd like to read the work done in this regard, particularly the actual twist rates compared. Very interesting. I have read comparisons of softs and spin revolutions-per-inch-penetration {reduced load terminal tests to duplicate performance at longer range, which is a similar concept} where slower rpip's showed essentially no difference in penetration.

For some reason I am thinking the British War Office Textbook of Small Arms 1929 has a reference to a similar study {can't remember the results} but I might be wrong there. I have a copy and I'll try to look that up.

Anyway, if you can point me to the link or post I'd appreciate it. Interesting stuff.

Intuitively it seems difficult to imagine that, say, a 14 inch twist would show much difference to a 16, but a 12 to a 20? More difficult "guess".

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JPK
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: 9.3x57]
      #122617 - 30/12/08 06:35 AM

9.3,

I believe that 500 Grains, aka Dan McCarthy, has written articles in African Hunter Magazine on the topic, perhaps a search of their website will reveal the article. There are many references on AR too and I'll try to find a link later today.

Remember, the military would be seeking the 180* opposite result than an elephant hunter would be seeking. While they both want projectile stability in the air on the way to a target, that is where commonality ends. The military seeks bullets and spin rates, etc, that will become imediately unsatble and tumble in a target while the elephant hunter wants just the opposite.

Take as an example the US M16. Original twist rates barely stabilized the original light bullets. When the change was made to increase the bullet weight, all M16's needed new barrels with faster twist rates.

JPK


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9.3x57
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: JPK]
      #122630 - 30/12/08 01:10 PM

JPK, bear with me...

I'll look for it. Sounds very interesting. I'm still having a tough time seeing how a bullet that makes, say, 2.5 turns in 36 inches {1/14} of penetration could kill noticeably better than an identical bullet that makes 2 turns (1/18). Not saying it's impossible...

I agree pointed bullets are irrelevant to the discussion but I am referring to MKII and MKVI .303 bullets which are 215 grain RNFMJ's and known in military and hunting as deep, straight penetrators and discussed in TSA '29. No dice on terminal effect of various twist rates on the bullets in TSA '29. There are extensive discussions on twist rate {and many mathematical calculations beyond my ken} but they involve exterior ballistics for the most part. Poor overall killing power is noted on men with such bullets compared to lighter, pointed bullets. That is not so much due to yaw and tipping over of bullets as it is related to striking velocities and resultant hydraulic effect and energies imparted to secondary projectiles like bone, etc. Since the Great War {and SA War} was fresh on everybodies' minds this discussion is decisive. Most pointed .30-.323 military bullets tip in media after penetrating deeper than a torso shot on a man. None of this is particularly relevant to elephant hunting.

Having not read the material you reference yet, I cannot say, but one twist-rate factor that might effect terminal performance of heavy caliber, close "stopping" rifles is the distance required to make a bullet "go to sleep". All bullets exit the bore as "tippers" and take some distance to reach maximum stability, just like a top does when you give it a good "zing" and it wobbles and then spins true. This normally is exhibited in lessened ability to maintain straight penetration in dense mediums if impact occurs before max stability is reached.

Mmm... But does a quick twist take a few more yards to stabilize a bullet than does a slower {but adequate} twist or the other way around? I do not know.

On elephant it just might matter, and may explain strange bullet behavior on shots taken at real live life'n'death close ranges if strange behavior exists. Long-for-caliber monolithic solids may be effected more by such a phenomenon {bullet length dictates twist rate}.

There might be the twist rate mystery solved, but I'm not sure. Maybe the issue is twist rate as it impacts the actual distance necessary for the bullet to reach max stability BEFORE impact occurs. All bullets possess a certain amount of yaw before entering a target. It seems that in elephant hunting the minimization of preimpact yaw is maybe more important than is in any other hunting if for no reason than that the shots that truly matter may occur before this is reached in some rifles...

For testing softs, I can, based on my own testing, say with a fair degree of confidence that impact before max stability is reached does not materially effect performance of the bullet though some bullets tested recently indicate more "smear" on one side than another. Haven't explored that enough... Most sources seem to refer to 20 meters or so as being the closest distance a bullet takes to reach max stability and that is where I do my testing.

Regardless, if you introduce more yaw to one bullet than you do to another, penetration is very likely to be effected.

By the way, not sure what you mean by original twist rates of the M16. M193 is extremely stable when fired in standard 1/12 "A1" barrels. Dramatic wounding effect is primarily a result of fragmentation, not merely yaw of the bullet. M855 requires a 1/9 or so twist, the move to 1/7 in the A2 being made necessary by long tracer rounds only, which require a tighter pitch of 7.5-8 or so.

Now you make me want to sell the pickup and a horse or two and go elephant hunting...

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

Edited by 9ThreeXFifty7 (31/12/08 01:18 AM)


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JPK
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: 9.3x57]
      #122641 - 30/12/08 04:32 PM

I'm looking for the threads I was thinking about, but in the meantime, I'll post some links to other interesting threads.

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4711043/m/507107644?r=507107644#507107644

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4711043/m/656103598?r=378108598#378108598

I believe this one is the one I was looking for.
http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4711043/m/594102656/p/1

Here is an intersting thread.
http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4711043/m/32410417/p/2

Here is another one.
http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4711043/m/141106055?r=552104455#552104455

That's enough looking for me tonight. Goos luck trying to read through some of the bickering. But whe you do you can find the references and the tests.

JPK


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JPK
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: JPK]
      #122643 - 30/12/08 05:46 PM

On the M16, I had a nice long response regarding the current 1:7" twist, as you note required by the tracer ammo designed to compliment the Belgian developed Nato ammo. It was lost to the "no longer valid" deamon that appears when you take too long to post.

Suffice to say that the original 1:12" stabilized the original bullet in air, in moderate and hot temps. But it was short stabilization in arctic cold conditions, I suppose because the ammo was slower in really cold conditions, lowering rotation speed. (Recall that velocity directly effects rotational speed and stabilization, with greater velocity producing greater rotational rate and more stabilization and less velocity the opposite.) It's apparenty marginal stabilization in other conditions lead to rapid tumbling in denser mediums than air. Also leading to the complaints regarding penetration limitations in all mediums, with special concern regarding body armour.

The Belgian ammo Nato adopted now faces complaints of penciling, or too straight line, over penetraion because it is over stabilized.

I'll provide cites if you want them. I think a review of the fast twist = greater penetration threads gets us to the same place. That being sufficient but marginal stabilzation in air = poor penetration and tumbling in denser mediums and greater stabilization, even "over stabilization", leads to reduced early bullet yaw as well as to greater penetration independent of early yaw considerations. The latter point regarding greater penetration being open to some debate. I'm a beleiver though.

JPK

JPK


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Paul
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: JPK]
      #122651 - 30/12/08 08:09 PM

Thinking of penetration, JPK, 450-grain .416 bullets should have have more sectional density than 500-gr .458s.

The matter of increased velocity giving deeper penetration of course assumes we have tough, full-patch bullets. With soft-points it is usually the other way round in big-game calibres.


PS: If any Aussies can part with a small handful of FMJ 300-grain .338 slugs, please let me know. They might help in case I'm caught by something tough and nasty while armed for plains game, since some .338 solids have been said to penetrate the head of an elephant.

- Paul


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9.3x57
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: JPK]
      #122657 - 31/12/08 01:03 AM

JPK:

THANKS for the cites!

Yes, that expounds on the issue and hits on the issue I was referring to. Good stuff. Obviously somebody needs to do a Stem-to-Stern Research Report on it and I need to do some reading!

In sum, I guess it makes sense for a fellow to avoid extremes in the choice of an elephant rifle/cartridge combination, to be sure. An example would be extra heavy monoloithic solids in a rifle with minimal twist. Those details of weight and twist to be determined. I do not know what the original twist rate of the Win African .458 was, but I've always wondered if the accusations of veering penetration could have had something to do with squibb loads{low velocity, low rotational velocity} AND minimal stabilization to begin with. {??}

And for fun...

This quote by Ganyana: "All bullets yaw (helix) - shott a tracer into the night sky and watch".

Here's one launched from my front yard. And before anyone squeals, it is literally 185 miles of dense forest and mountains utterly devoid of buildings, sheds, camps or human habitation in that direction, and there was heavy snow on the ground and mist in the air when the shots were fired.

If a guy can't see the yaw, he ain't lookin'!!



As you know, but some may not, MERELY selecting a bullet based on its heavy weight and extreme length and assuming it to be a deep penetrator can be a mistake. Mere high sectional density does not guarantee deep penetration, bullet construction does. Bob Hagel and Elmer Keith's criticism of the Kynoch 300 grain .333 bullet and my own use and tests of 6.5 cal 160 Hornady's come to mind.

The reason all bullets need more twist in cold air is due to the air presenting a denser medium to the bullet than does warm air. Shooting in deep cold is also very interesting as the shooter can sometimes hear the bullets travel.

Finally...it would be very interesting to add a sticky where we could measure and post actual twists of actual guns instead of relying on catalogs and recurring hearsay. We started one on the gunboards Swede forum and it is a very interesting source of supporting information. I think you stated something about slow twist rates in .416's somewhere.

Standardized twists in military and other rifles normally are tighter than actually necessary for the bullets intended, in order to provide protection against barrel wear; corrosion, erosion, throat erosion, etc. I am REALLY curious as to the actual accuracy of some of the old NE guns that might be used. Testing at say, 50 meters like might occur might not be sufficient to expose bullets that are on the cusp of gyrostatic instability. Assuming there are those shooters who are a bit afraid of the old cannon and only shoot it at 50 meters and don't hit so well anyhow, they may never know until Tembo steps off the blocks!

Now, I wonder what the great collection of NE guns possessed here would expose as to actual twist rates {and bore condition}. I've attempted to measure twists on guns that would not spin the jag due to being shot out...

Thanks for a great discussion and for giving me all the links, etc.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

Edited by 9ThreeXFifty7 (31/12/08 01:29 AM)


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Mike_Bailey
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: 9.3x57]
      #122658 - 31/12/08 01:57 AM

Fascinating stuff. FYI 9threeXfifty7, before I took that .470 O/U Dumoulin double to Africa I did
shoot 15 rounds off a lead sled as an experiment, it was NOT clamped, merely put in the sled, which, with the sand bags weighed 30lbs approx. No probs experienced with the rifle, groups were about 4" at 50 yds, 2 left, 2 right. Put another 15 rounds through offhand at 25 yds, recoil was obviously a lot less off the bench. Funny thing is when I perforated the Hippo I never even heard the thing go off or felt anything, all relative I suppose, punching paper is never going to be the same as when the adrenalin is up best and a prosperous and happy New Year to all, Mike (and thanks for the powder recommendations)


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Ripp
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: 9.3x57]
      #122662 - 31/12/08 03:37 AM

9.3x57

Wow--now that is interesting stuff...have not had an opportunity to look at all the links yet...but your photo is amazing...and I had no idea bullets did that..had no idea this post would lead to this --but pretty cool...


Agree with your statement that one needs to be aware of the design and composition of the bullet when choosing weight --as that is, IMHO, even more important that the actual grain of the bullet..


By the way, You damn near him me with that bullet..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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9.3x57
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: Ripp]
      #122664 - 31/12/08 04:47 AM

Quote:

By the way, You damn near him me with that bullet..




You must'a ducked!!

And just for the record, that bullet demonstrates a most exaggerated example of yaw as it was a .30 cal tracer run single-shot thru a 7.62x25 TT33 Tokarev pistol. I keep a few of those as signalling rounds for survival purposes for my ski jaunts. Kinda like road flares.

Same bullet shot from a .30-06 at normal speed shows a less dramatic helix. Still visible, but less dramatic. For really eerie pyrotechnics, launching tracers into the night sky during a fine snowstormor into light clouds takes the cake!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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JPK
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: Paul]
      #122668 - 31/12/08 07:49 AM

Quote:

Thinking of penetration, JPK, 450-grain .416 bullets should have have more sectional density than 500-gr .458s.

The matter of increased velocity giving deeper penetration of course assumes we have tough, full-patch bullets. With soft-points it is usually the other way round in big-game calibres.


PS: If any Aussies can part with a small handful of FMJ 300-grain .338 slugs, please let me know. They might help in case I'm caught by something tough and nasty while armed for plains game, since some .338 solids have been said to penetrate the head of an elephant.

- Paul




Wasn't intending to include softs in the discussion.

Yes, the .416" 450's have higher SD than the .458" 500's, but not the 550's!

SD .416" 450gr = .371. SD .458" 500gr = .341, 550gr = .375.

The 550's are of no use in the 458wm, but they are the cat's meow in the 458Lott, Ackeley, Rigby,... all the big case .458" rounds. The Lott will push them to 2150fps without trouble. Memebr 456H&H reports excellent penertation in elephants with the 550's at 2150fps mv, in the range of +70". BTW, he has more extensive elephant experience than I do, by a good bit.

JPK


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JPK
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: JPK]
      #122669 - 31/12/08 08:22 AM

Regarding being careful selecting heavy bullets, you will eventually get to a brief post by 500 Grains, who has done a bunch on the topic. He is a fan of mono metal flat nose solids, and not one of those who once aware of the benefits who then think Woodleighs stink.

He believes that when one moves to a mono flat nose solid, it ought to be 10% lighter than the "standard" bullet. So for a .458" rifle, it ought to be 450grs, or for a 375H&H 270grs, for a 416 then 370grs or so.

I think he's generally right but each rifle's twist should lead to the answer.

JPK


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93mouse
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: JPK]
      #122693 - 31/12/08 07:59 PM

Just my 2c - here is a pic of 2 300gr 9.3 cal Bridgers from Cape buff shot at 10m distance from 20cm barrel with 14" twist - bullets bended their noses (I assume that yaw/distance been the cause) and penetration was "sh€ty" (I bet they tumbled) - same bullet zipped through elands shoulders at 180m distance - only 265-270gr mono solids in 9,3/14" twist for me please.



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9.3x57
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: 93mouse]
      #122723 - 01/01/09 01:26 AM

Very interesting pic, 93.

Appears those bullets have slumped and not just bent over, also. I wonder if the wide meplat causes such behavior routinely??

Long bullets!

Really, those are zelo dolg svincenka!!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

Edited by 9ThreeXFifty7 (01/01/09 01:46 AM)


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Ripp
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: 9.3x57]
      #122724 - 01/01/09 01:30 AM

9.3x57
think 93 stated its 14"..

My Barnes solids I have recovered from several cape buffalo I have shot have actually retained almost 100% of their original shape--fact is, I think I could reload them again if I wanted too..Buffalo where all shot at 70 yards or less...and of course..416...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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9.3x57
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: Ripp]
      #122732 - 01/01/09 01:48 AM

Quote:

9.3x57
think 93 stated its 14".




Oops...edited. Thanks.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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ant458
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: 9.3x57]
      #123651 - 11/01/09 02:48 AM

hey guys heres my stand on stopping rifles for one the 375 and 404 are very good for their bore size and dont forget peter capstick used a 375 as a backup for many years as did finn agarad

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JabaliHunter
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: 9.3x57]
      #123658 - 11/01/09 04:16 AM

Quote:


And for fun...

This quote by Ganyana: "All bullets yaw (helix) - shott a tracer into the night sky and watch".

Here's one launched from my front yard. And before anyone squeals, it is literally 185 miles of dense forest and mountains utterly devoid of buildings, sheds, camps or human habitation in that direction, and there was heavy snow on the ground and mist in the air when the shots were fired.

If a guy can't see the yaw, he ain't lookin'!!







9Three - I have a question on this but started a new thread...


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