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Huvius
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Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3522
Loc: Colorado
Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: Der_Jaeger]
      #122452 - 28/12/08 04:05 AM

The answering of the last question is where it gets interesting.
There looks to be a real difference between what the PH's use and what they suggest clients bring (other than the 470).
Maybe elephant specific would be different, but for either 458 to be suggested above the 500's (Jeff & NE)etc. is very telling. I think a PH takes into account not only client shooting comfort/ability, but also availability of replacement ammo in case of a mishap etc. That kind of practicality is in their nature I think. That is probably also what leans them toward the 458's for themselves in many cases.
Also, there is a big difference between choosing a gun to take along when hunting with an experienced PH with a stopping rifle and being the PH with the stopping rifle. No matter what the client is using, there are always immediate followups from the PH if needed - not so if you are the PH or on your own such as Taylor was most of the time.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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GarBy
.224 member


Reged: 20/12/04
Posts: 39
Loc: Florida, USA
Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: Huvius]
      #122459 - 28/12/08 05:47 AM

Craig Robinson (Zim)- 416 Rem
Johnny DuPlooy (Zambia)- 470
Alister Norton (Zambia)- 458 Lott...but understand he's looking for a 500 Double
Abie DuPlooy (Zambia)- 458 Lott
Jeff Rann (Botswana)- 577

That's all I'm aware of......

Gary


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Ripp
.577 member


Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: ozhunter]
      #122463 - 28/12/08 07:11 AM

Quote:

Ian Gibson 458win
Stu Taylor 458win
Mike Taylor 458lott
Andy Hunter 416rem
Charlie Stanton 375H&H
Matt Stanton 470NE
Bill Lemon 460W
Johnathan Taylor 458Win
Rex Hoets 500J
John Sharp 470NE
John Greef 470NE




+++


Lynn -- 416 Rem.
Mark--.416 Rem

Both were PH's for Chifuti at Chewore North when I was there this past summer..sorry, don't remember their last names..

As I mentioned to John, Ian Gibson is staying with me for a few days at the end of Jan. '09..will get his take on this subject and let you know ... as previously stated, he does carry a .458Win --very well broken in..also has a .416 setting around for his clients..I know as I left him 4 boxes of ammo when I left...

I agree with Huvius,,think there can be big difference between what you carry as a client versus what you carry as a PH---think a lot of the people on this site are NOT the norm..at least from what I have seen in camp..quite frankly, many can not shoot, period..let along shoot a true big bore..therein lies one of the problems...and again, bullet placement and bullet performance is everything, especially attempting to brain a elephant..

My first trip to Africa, I, unfortunatley relied on info from some who had never gone to Africa or with little experience...will NEVER make that mistake again..so I am very cautious who I accept advice from anymore..need to see more than words before I am a believer..and even then, keep the questions going...

As JPK and others have stated..I do rufuse to be one of those the PH has to shoot for..that is why I am there and why I shoot a ton before I go..I want the total experience..and if shit hits the fan, I want that too...


Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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Ripp
.577 member


Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: JPK]
      #122468 - 28/12/08 07:51 AM

Quote:

Ripp,

Like I was saying having shot more elephants than Boddingtoon has is no real accomplishment as I understand things. As I recall Boddingtons own writing, he had only shot one elephant until recently. He was nutso for buff hunting and concentrated on that.

I have taken eighteen now. But that isn't as many as some of the other members here, including, I think, some who have posted on this thread. IIRC, ten of the elephant I have shot went down to brain shots, at least one was a second shot and the ele did not drop at the first. The other eight, well, lets just say that if at first you don't succeed, try , try again.

I now shoot 500gr Woodleighs for the first shot, at 2145fps, and 450 North Fork flat nose solids in the second barrel, at about 2200fps. Ballistics essentially identicle to those of the 450NE's or the Federal 470 loads.

JPK






I have loaded the woodleighs as well for my .470's --ordered 100 more of each of the solids and softs..the shoot really well...

For the .416 and the thick stuff, have been using 400 gr A-Frames and 400 gr Barnes solids in the bolt guns..very good performance...and, obviously, the solids on the elephant..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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JPK
.375 member


Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD
Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: Ripp]
      #122491 - 28/12/08 02:21 PM

Relying on Der Jaeger's count in Boddington's new book, 75 for =/>450+, 27 for <450. Not quite three to one. I'm suprised.

On the PH count, Roger Whittall no longer regularly hunts and is pretty much retired from PHing. His hearing being prehaps the primary cause. But if you were to include Roger, than how about Barry Duckworth with the 458wm and 500NE?

BTW, my eight year old son killed his second whitetail deer this evening, a seven point buck. He made an eighty fivve yard or so shot, with a blackpowder rifle. I'm quite "chuffed!"

JPK


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JPK
.375 member


Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD
Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: Huvius]
      #122494 - 28/12/08 02:32 PM

Quote:


Also, there is a big difference between choosing a gun to take along when hunting with an experienced PH with a stopping rifle and being the PH with the stopping rifle. No matter what the client is using, there are always immediate followups from the PH if needed - not so if you are the PH or on your own such as Taylor was most of the time.




I don't entirely agree with this. The PH is not always in a osition to stop a charge or save your bacon. And even the very best in any endevour have off days. The client ought to be prepared for the worst, imo.

Also, for a PH to hold himself out as omnipotent, kinda makes me wonder... I was omnipotent once, when I was a hell of a lot younger and a much, much less experienced fellow. Never when it came to elephant hunting though, I was well past imaginary onmipotence, experience had long, long, long ago rid me of that fantasy.

I read something along the lines of, "Ineed the big bore stopper Bwana, but you, on the other hand, can get by with just adequate..." and I cringe. What happens if... really does happen, even if infrequently.

JPK


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Der_Jaeger
.375 member


Reged: 09/10/08
Posts: 607
Loc: SE Pennsylvania
Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: JPK]
      #122507 - 28/12/08 10:36 PM

Quote:

Relying on Der Jaeger's count in Boddington's new book, 75 for =/>450+, 27 for <450. Not quite three to one. I'm suprised.

JPK





JPK, just curious.......

Did you think the ratio would've been higher or lower than 3:1 in favor of the .450 and over calibers? It does seem to favor the big bores by a considerable margin. There are other surveys in the book regarding the PH's recommendation for light plains game, heavy plains game, thick skinned dangerous game (stated previously), and the PH's recommendations to clients for a one gun, two gun, or three gun safari. It's very interesting reading especially for myself having never been to Africa yet. 2010 can't come quick enough

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JPK
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Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: Der_Jaeger]
      #122514 - 29/12/08 01:06 AM

Der Jaeger,

With all the apparently phony, or at least innaccurate, hearsay so often repeated about the number of PH's recomending 375's I would have thought the ratio would have been lower.

My own experience regarding PH recomendations (for elephant) runs fairly similar to Boddington's polls, but with less representation of the bigger than 470 rifles. On the other hand, they often come with the caveat, "If the hunter is familiar with his rifle and accustomed to its recoil...," or similar. When the question of what if recoil is an issue is raised then I recall that the 375H&H and the 416's get about equal the number of secondary recomendations. The 375 because it is easy to shoot and the 416's because they offer more performance than the 375, if not as much as the 450's, and are viewed as a plausible compromise.

I've read Boddington's previous book "Safari Rifles." Good info for the most part, but he played favorites and did not do his research in several areas, 458wm performance being one that always comes to my attention. Every time I pull the trigger and see the results, either on the chronograph or on game, or speak with or read of a PH or former elephant culling officer who swears by it.

Fwiw in planning your first safari, while I have a three rifle "African battery," the bolt rifles acquired well in anticipation of my first safari, I can see no NEED for three rifles on a safari featuring dangerous game. I'm a life long East Coast US resident and our deer hunting doesn't often require longer range shooting, though it is there if one wants it. I've always preferred close hunting and shooting. So I'm no long range rifleman and don't see my practicle 200yds limit (a rare, unussually long shot for me) - which seems to match the 375H&H well - as a handicap, but I could easily imagine a fellow who could. So, for me, my double 458wm and a 375H&H, just in case of ammo or other trouble with the big rifle. The 375 offers excellent performance on everything from grysbok to eland and will do the job if required on the largest dangerous game, legally. Also, I'm a lefty, so the improbable odds of finding a left handed dangerous game rifle in a pinch are a strong factor in my choice.

The rifle that has stayed at home is a 30-06, which I think would be a great rifle to hunt almost anything in Africa with, but can't pull the double duty on DG (except leopard) that the 375 can.

JPK

Edited by JPK (29/12/08 01:12 AM)


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Der_Jaeger
.375 member


Reged: 09/10/08
Posts: 607
Loc: SE Pennsylvania
Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: JPK]
      #122517 - 29/12/08 01:33 AM

Very good advice, JPK. Thank you! I agree on all counts.

I'm enjoying the planning stages of my first safari especially deciding which two rifles I'm bringing. I'm going to be berated by many, but, for good or bad, I like Weatherby rifles and their calibers. I don't want to argue the point, it's simply what I like. I have the following rifles:

.257 Wby
.270 Wby
.300 Wby (2)
.340 Wby
.416 Wby
.375 H&H in a Mauser M03
.338 Win Mag Remington XCR with a custom McMillan stock

I refinished all of my Weatherbys with an oil finish and a London Best Orange pad.

I plan to pair my .416 with either the .338, .340, or a .300. My safari is planned with Jan Oelofse in Namibia for June 2010 and my PH will be Josephus. I'm always open to other opinions on the right rifle pairing. I can handle long range if the situation calls for it having taken whitetail at a bit over 400 yards, a Pronghorn at around 300 (post in Hunting, "My First pronghorn) and a Mule deer and Elk at decent ranges too. I've also taken many at less than 100 yards. My most recent is a Boar taken in Pennsylvania (post in Hunting, "Pennsylvania Boar Hunt").

I guess my point is, like you, I do prefer big rifles and, even though my hunt will primarily include large plains game, my .416 is definitely making the trip. I woill also buy a double rifle but have no idea which one yet. i have the most experience with a Krieghoff in a .500NE.

--------------------


Edited by Der_Jaeger (29/12/08 02:21 AM)


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9.3x57
.450 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5503
Loc: United States
Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: Der_Jaeger]
      #122520 - 29/12/08 02:10 AM

Mmm...

...looking over that list of recommendations by PH's, I seriously can't help but wonder how many of them that recommended the rare cartridges just happen to shoot the same rounds themselves, and made their recommendations because their experience with tourist hunters' shooting ability was so ho-hum they didn't care jack about what caliber the clients brought as long as said clients could leave behind a nice pile of that Golden ammo when they left... {??}

Der Jäger, bringen Sie sein .340 mit genug Patronen und Sie sind fertig für alles in Südwest Afrika!!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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Der_Jaeger
.375 member


Reged: 09/10/08
Posts: 607
Loc: SE Pennsylvania
Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: 9.3x57]
      #122521 - 29/12/08 02:18 AM

Quote:

Mmm...

Der Jäger, bringen Sie sein .340 mit genug Patronen und Sie sind fertig für alles in Südwest Afrika!!





Ich zustimme! Er ist eins meiner Lieblingsgewehre. Es sein ein guter begleiter bis das .416 auf meiner Jagd

--------------------


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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: Der_Jaeger]
      #122522 - 29/12/08 02:28 AM

Quote:

Es sein ein guter begleiter bis das .416 auf meiner Jagd




Die richtige Entscheidigung!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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Paul
.400 member


Reged: 28/08/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: 9.3x57]
      #122565 - 29/12/08 04:08 PM

To what extent can the human nervous system really get used to heavy recoil when shooting at inanimate targets? Maybe some individuals can beat their nerves into submission but I'm more inclined to think nerves have their own agenda, and may behave better when facing dangerous game if not tortured beforehand. Dry-firing snapcaps, shooting subloads, sporting clays with a similarly setup shotgun or occasional shooting full-power loads at a charging paper targets - yes, I think these are good ideas. Trying to peen ourselves into shape by continually shooting a full-house .500NE at stationary paper targets - maybe not.

That I have finally opted for a 450/.400 is partly because that's what I could get new without waiting two years - and partly on advice from experienced hunters.

One NT PH said he was alarmed that many clients using big rifles shoot all right with the first shot but are lucky to hit an escaping animal with the second. He was getting a big calibre for himself on the assumption perhaps that we shoot them better when we only shoot in an emergency.

If you hear that I end up on the horns of a dilemna, you'll have the last laugh.


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JPK
.375 member


Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD
Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: Paul]
      #122571 - 29/12/08 06:05 PM

Quote:

To what extent can the human nervous system really get used to heavy recoil when shooting at inanimate targets? Maybe some individuals can beat their nerves into submission but I'm more inclined to think nerves have their own agenda, and may behave better when facing dangerous game if not tortured beforehand. Dry-firing snapcaps, shooting subloads, sporting clays with a similarly setup shotgun or occasional shooting full-power loads at a charging paper targets - yes, I think these are good ideas. Trying to peen ourselves into shape by continually shooting a full-house .500NE at stationary paper targets - maybe not.

That I have finally opted for a 450/.400 is partly because that's what I could get new without waiting two years - and partly on advice from experienced hunters.

One NT PH said he was alarmed that many clients using big rifles shoot all right with the first shot but are lucky to hit an escaping animal with the second. He was getting a big calibre for himself on the assumption perhaps that we shoot them better when we only shoot in an emergency.

If you hear that I end up on the horns of a dilemna, you'll have the last laugh.




A fellow named Gregor Woods wrote an excellent book on African Rifles, can't recall the book's title; in it he describes how to become accustomed to substantial recoil. It works, though I do it a bit differently.

Watch a cooking show to confirm that it can be done. Keep an eye on the chef, watch the hot plates and pans and whatnot he handles with out an oven mitt or other substantial protection. Watch him taste food which you would find uncomfortably hot, especially liquids. His hands and tongue are not burned, they are conditioned. Lots of similar examples out there of practice leading to tolerance of things that others would find intolerable, or painful.

Because I hunt ducks and geese in freezing weather frequently, and wish to do so without the discomfort of cold feet, I walk to get my morning newspaper barefoot, even in the snow. When we have snow, I make snow balls and participate in snowball fights with my kids without gloves too. I can pick up decoys and wrap lines without gloves even in well below freezing temps and with ice chunks floating in the water. We hunt in salt water and that doesn't freeze until wel below 32*F or 0*C.

But to give you the idea that recoil tolerance is not too difficult to come by, let me relate our deer hunting situation here. In more than half of my state deer hunting is limited to shotguns shooting slugs. Shooting a typical 7 1/2 or 8lb 12ga slug gun makes shooting a 10lb 458wm or a 470NE seem like a "gentle message." But every year, tens of thousand Marylanders take up their 12ga slug guns and kill about 10,000 deer in two weeks. More recoil here in Maryland in our two week deer season than in all of Africa every year, I'd venture. Then multiply that result by all of the other states with restrictions requiring shotguns and slugs.

Here is how to become recoil tolerant with your big bore rifle - assuming you don't have a 12ga slug gun and don't need to deer hunt with it, because that will definitely do it.

First, don't shoot off a sitting bench, a standing bench is just fine, off hand, etc, but don't shoot off a sitting bench.

If the rifle is new to you or you've laid off for quite some time, load some mild rounds. I load them to 45/70 levels, 500gr @ ~1500fps. Go shoot twenty or whatever, just to become acquanted with your rifle. Even though they won't shoot to regulation, you can still test you shooting because each barrel with print in a consistent place. Remind yourself that your rifle will not actually hurt you. Shoot four full house loads.

Return within one week, and preferrably sooner, and repeat, but shoot some of the light loads and then six or eight full loads.

Repeat within a week, preferrably sooner, but shoot eight or ten full house loads.

Repeat for a month bulding up the number of full loads you shoot and then as nessecary, skipping the light loads and working in another rifle instead, like a 375H&H. Soon shooting one is no different than shooting ten than shooting 20. You will end up looking forward to shooting more and become adicted to shooting the center 2" circle out of the target.

Keep in mind that some days you will just be more recoil tolerant than other days, so if a particular day is uncomfortable, cut back. But return soon. Also, some days your shootng will just be better. The days your shooting is just better, tend also to eb days where recoil is just less for some reason.

Even fully conditioned, I stop at about 20 rounds most of the time for $'s if nothing else. After 25 or so it definitely seems counter productive, unless your on a roll. I've done thrity five developing loads when time was short, but looked forward to some Advil afterwards. 500grs at 2145fps recoil level in a 10 1/2lb rifle.

The key is frequency. Repeat, but on a faster schedule and without the light loads if you've laid of for a bit, up to maybe three months. Repeat the whole proccess if you've laid of for quite some time.

Recoil with a buff or an elephant in front of you, or any game really (just ask the ten thousand Marylanders), will be just sufficient to let you know the rifle fired when you pulled the trigger.

JPK


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Paul
.400 member


Reged: 28/08/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: JPK]
      #122577 - 29/12/08 08:24 PM

Thanks JPK,
for that reasoned treatise. Yes, you can toughen up to cold, I know.

Would Marylanders shooting slugs mostly be using one-ounce slugs (about 437 grains) at about 1500 fps? Even in light guns that would still constitute a slower push, I should think, than most elephant rifles. The worst part of shooting aimed shot patterns or slugs from a shotgun that I've noticed is a kind of vibration that may be a consequence of the thin barrels.

As has been discussed in other NE threads, I would be tempted to hunt big game with a .577 nitro-for-black express. Sir Samuel Baker's 650-grain bullets at about 1650fps would give that push, hopefully with the barrel mass cutting the vibrations.

My experience with big rifles is so far limited to a 425WR and a light .458WM, neither of which bothered me at the shoulder, though the .458 smacked the cheek a bit. My .338 is heavy and seems not to kick more than a .30/06 but I'm happy to say that when shooting at deer I don't feel any recoil and don't even notice the report. Hopefully my baby elephant gun will give me the same satisfactory results the calibre seems to have given Pondoro.

Cheers
- Paul


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Ripp
.577 member


Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: JPK]
      #122582 - 30/12/08 12:33 AM

Quote:

Quote:


Also, there is a big difference between choosing a gun to take along when hunting with an experienced PH with a stopping rifle and being the PH with the stopping rifle. No matter what the client is using, there are always immediate followups from the PH if needed - not so if you are the PH or on your own such as Taylor was most of the time.




I don't entirely agree with this. The PH is not always in a osition to stop a charge or save your bacon. And even the very best in any endevour have off days. The client ought to be prepared for the worst, imo.

JPK





The reason for this statement is after watching the DVD on elephant hunting with Carter and Boddington..some have no interest in hanging around in the event the shit hits the fan..my wife laughed out loud..when, I believe Mike was hunting with a US client..a cow charged and he was running away before she had 2 steps toward them..so, it really doesn't matter what they are shooting..they are too damn scared to hang around...Ian Gibson told me while I was there, that one of his lion clients would not even come out of the blind until Ian had walked over to the dead lion and poked him with his rifle to make sure he was dead...

While I agree with you in that I prefer to cover my own rear-end.and you probably do as well.you have to realize that is not the norm in the world of the PH...a very high percentage are novice hunters at best and have NO interest in facing a charge..oh, they do around the campfire at night...but in the woods with a nasty heading their way, different story.. .

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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Ripp
.577 member


Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: JPK]
      #122583 - 30/12/08 12:42 AM

Quote:

Der Jaeger,

With all the apparently phony, or at least innaccurate, hearsay so often repeated about the number of PH's recomending 375's I would have thought the ratio would have been lower.

My own experience regarding PH recomendations (for elephant) runs fairly similar to Boddington's polls, but with less representation of the bigger than 470 rifles. On the other hand, they often come with the caveat, "If the hunter is familiar with his rifle and accustomed to its recoil...," or similar. When the question of what if recoil is an issue is raised then I recall that the 375H&H and the 416's get about equal the number of secondary recomendations. The 375 because it is easy to shoot and the 416's because they offer more performance than the 375, if not as much as the 450's, and are viewed as a plausible compromise.

I've read Boddington's previous book "Safari Rifles." Good info for the most part, but he played favorites and did not do his research in several areas, 458wm performance being one that always comes to my attention. Every time I pull the trigger and see the results, either on the chronograph or on game, or speak with or read of a PH or former elephant culling officer who swears by it.

JPK





As in the case of Safari Rifles II--actually more praise than is warranted IMHO, is given by Boddington on the .458Win...it goes on to say that with todays advancement in powder and bullet technology, there is basically no fly in the ointment with the .458W...also stated that Hornady I believe, is loading a factory load with 2200 fps velocity with a 500 gr bullet..didn't think it could reach that level..curious what the pressures are at that velocity..

Boddington also goes on stating that in his opinion, the 458 Lott is the 45 to go with, in his self reported elephant hunting history..he states his elephant hunting experience is quite a bit more in the past 3 years..at least more than one..as I seen him shooting several in either "Tracks Across Africa" or on the DVD on elephant with Ivan Carter..


Also stated is a quote from Bell who basically stated if you don't place your shot on an elephant it does not matter whether you hit him with 100 or 10 million..your shot needs to find his mark..
Not sure I agree with that totally, as stated, there is evidence the big bores will turn a bull and that includes the .416...

Johan Calitz, who has a ton, (no pun intended) of elephant experience, states he has seen numerous failures by the older big Nitro calibers as to penetration...so, the issue of penetration again is raised..I am not trying to kill a dead horse hear...but, ....there is also a statements made in seveal areas of the book at the 416, in Rigby, Remington, whatever, traveling at 2400 fps with its long for caliber bullet of 400 grs will outpenetrate a .458 with a 500 even at 2200 every time...which makes sense as the 458 has less speed and more surface area to slow it down..also states the .416 will also turn a bull on a charge...

Actually laughed pretty hard when the story of using a .505 Gibbs, Harland shot a cow through both shoulders, the bullet then went on to hit another ele beside the tail and the bullet was found in the front portion of that cow..now that is penetration..

JPK, I agree with you, if all one is going after, is elephant, I will probably grab my double .470 Westley and call it good...but if there are other animals on the plate..believe I will stick with my .416..again, just in my experience, more versatile and all the penetration I need...

Thx

Ripp









--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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Ripp
.577 member


Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: Der_Jaeger]
      #122585 - 30/12/08 12:57 AM

Quote:

Very good advice, JPK. Thank you! I agree on all counts.

I'm enjoying the planning stages of my first safari especially deciding which two rifles I'm bringing. I'm going to be berated by many, but, for good or bad, I like Weatherby rifles and their calibers. I don't want to argue the point, it's simply what I like. I have the following rifles:

.257 Wby
.270 Wby
.300 Wby (2)
.340 Wby
.416 Wby
.375 H&H in a Mauser M03
.338 Win Mag Remington XCR with a custom McMillan stock

I refinished all of my Weatherbys with an oil finish and a London Best Orange pad.

I plan to pair my .416 with either the .338, .340, or a .300. My safari is planned with Jan Oelofse in Namibia for June 2010 and my PH will be Josephus. I'm always open to other opinions on the right rifle pairing. I can handle long range if the situation calls for it having taken whitetail at a bit over 400 yards, a Pronghorn at around 300 (post in Hunting, "My First pronghorn) and a Mule deer and Elk at decent ranges too. I've also taken many at less than 100 yards. My most recent is a Boar taken in Pennsylvania (post in Hunting, "Pennsylvania Boar Hunt").

I guess my point is, like you, I do prefer big rifles and, even though my hunt will primarily include large plains game, my .416 is definitely making the trip. I woill also buy a double rifle but have no idea which one yet. i have the most experience with a Krieghoff in a .500NE.




++++


For what is it worth, Namibia can offer some long shots,,especially on gemsbock...if it was me I would take the 300WBY loaded with 200 gr A-Frames and call it good...will shoot very flat, great BC and SD, plus all the power you need for anything you will meet over there...heck, Boddington shot a very large male lion over there last year with the same load out of a 300 Ultra-mag..

I have taken my .300 HS Ultra-mag on 4 hunts over there --have shot Zebra, Eland, Kudu, gemsbock, waterbuck, etc...and it worked very well on all...in fact, on my last hunt, I took exactly the same selection, with the exception my .416 was in Remington caliber ...and would take that same group again, unless I spent a lot of time in a DG area..then, nothing less than a .375 would go with..

Curious as to how you like your Krieghoff in 500??

thx
Ripp

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ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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JPK
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: Paul]
      #122592 - 30/12/08 01:25 AM

Taylor writes a lot about the 450/400 as an all rounder, as he does the 375H&H, but he used a 450NE No2 or 500/465NE for the great bulk of the elephants he shot.

What ever the load for a slug gun, full diameter, full weight slugs or lighter sub bore saboted slugs, all I have shot seem to recoil within a small range, pretty much the same, all unpleasant, all more than that of any 458wm or 470 that I have shot. Including PH Rich Tabor's 10.5lb 470 - he loads his 500gr solids at 2250fps for hunting elephants (recently Remington has brought out a low recoil slug loading that pushes a lighter slug at lower velocity, but that is a new exception.) Don't forget that recoil is based on the entire ejecta mass, including the wads and sabots and burnt powder.

I have a pamphlet sitting hear that gives info on another Remington loading, it gives a saboted 385gr projectile a 1900fps ride. 1oz slugs generally run +/-1600, same with 1 1/4oz slugs though some offerrings of each run a bit faster or slower. Some or most slug guns have rifled barrels which are quite a bit thicker than regular barrels.

Also, I caught on another thread how you seek muscle tension in your right shoulder when you shoot. I presume you are right handed. This may be an error in so far as recoil tollerance, imo. I find that recoil is least felt when the rifle is held firmly and pulled into the shoulder, but no more. The body should be relaxed. Rock from the hips in recoil. There will be some muzzle rise, but if your cheek is welded to the comb there will be no slap, which can be most unpleasant.

When you shoot game, you will find you shoot with much less muzzle rise, a near absence in 450 class rifles. I suppose this is due to the natural excitement of shooting real game. It is quite apparent in videos. For example, I feel and see the muzzle rise at the range, when not shooting timed series, but video of me shooting elephants shows none.

If you want to see examples for yourself, take a look at either Boddington on Buffalo, where Andrew Dawson turns a charging bull with his 470 or where he shoot a buff Boddington has hit. No muzzle rise. See also Buzz Charlton's first DVD on elephant hunting, watch our own 500 Grains shooting his 500NE. He takes several shots on different elephants in the film. He is relatively relaxed on an insurance shot on a down ele and rocks, but on a charging injured cow, much less. BTW, there is the alternative also seen on Buzz's DVD, with our own Will seen shooting a charging tuskless with his very light weight 416 Taylor, the muzzle rise and cheek slap that are so clearly seen in the DVD just hurts to watch.

The key to shooting well and comfortably a true stopping rifle, as defined by Taylor and history, is dedication to the purpose, time committed and frquency. Thankfully this time commitment and dedication can come in spurts starting months prior to elephant hunts we book and then lying dormant until the next hunt is booked.

JPK


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Der_Jaeger
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Reged: 09/10/08
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: Ripp]
      #122594 - 30/12/08 01:32 AM


Ripp,

Indeed, very good advice. A .300Wby is certainly more than capable. A .300 paired with a .416 is a great combination, but the .300 can easily be a one gun safari if Buffalo were not included. My hunt will consist of:

Gemsbok
Eland
Kudu
Zebra
Black Wildebeest

Buff - hopeful?

Plus, a stringer of baboons

Regarding the Krieghoff, I don't own one and have never owned a double rifle. My experience comes from shooting for Krieghoff at several Vintage Cup events in the Stopping Rifle category. It took a bit to get used to the cocking device, but I really, really like the way the rifle feels and the way that it mounts. For me, the balance is superb. I'm a big Merkel fan and shoot a 247SL in 12 bore, but their rifles simply do not fit me without some alteration to length of pull and drop at comb/heel.

--------------------


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JPK
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Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: Ripp]
      #122596 - 30/12/08 01:37 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Der Jaeger,

With all the apparently phony, or at least innaccurate, hearsay so often repeated about the number of PH's recomending 375's I would have thought the ratio would have been lower.

My own experience regarding PH recomendations (for elephant) runs fairly similar to Boddington's polls, but with less representation of the bigger than 470 rifles. On the other hand, they often come with the caveat, "If the hunter is familiar with his rifle and accustomed to its recoil...," or similar. When the question of what if recoil is an issue is raised then I recall that the 375H&H and the 416's get about equal the number of secondary recomendations. The 375 because it is easy to shoot and the 416's because they offer more performance than the 375, if not as much as the 450's, and are viewed as a plausible compromise.

I've read Boddington's previous book "Safari Rifles." Good info for the most part, but he played favorites and did not do his research in several areas, 458wm performance being one that always comes to my attention. Every time I pull the trigger and see the results, either on the chronograph or on game, or speak with or read of a PH or former elephant culling officer who swears by it.

JPK





As in the case of Safari Rifles II--actually more praise than is warranted IMHO, is given by Boddington on the .458Win...it goes on to say that with todays advancement in powder and bullet technology, there is basically no fly in the ointment with the .458W...also stated that Hornady I believe, is loading a factory load with 2200 fps velocity with a 500 gr bullet..didn't think it could reach that level..curious what the pressures are at that velocity..

Boddington also goes on stating that in his opinion, the 458 Lott is the 45 to go with, in his self reported elephant hunting history..he states his elephant hunting experience is quite a bit more in the past 3 years..at least more than one..as I seen him shooting several in either "Tracks Across Africa" or on the DVD on elephant with Ivan Carter..


Also stated is a quote from Bell who basically stated if you don't place your shot on an elephant it does not matter whether you hit him with 100 or 10 million..your shot needs to find his mark..
Not sure I agree with that totally, as stated, there is evidence the big bores will turn a bull and that includes the .416...

Johan Calitz, who has a ton, (no pun intended) of elephant experience, states he has seen numerous failures by the older big Nitro calibers as to penetration...so, the issue of penetration again is raised..I am not trying to kill a dead horse hear...but, ....there is also a statements made in seveal areas of the book at the 416, in Rigby, Remington, whatever, traveling at 2400 fps with its long for caliber bullet of 400 grs will outpenetrate a .458 with a 500 even at 2200 every time...which makes sense as the 458 has less speed and more surface area to slow it down..also states the .416 will also turn a bull on a charge...

Actually laughed pretty hard when the story of using a .505 Gibbs, Harland shot a cow through both shoulders, the bullet then went on to hit another ele beside the tail and the bullet was found in the front portion of that cow..now that is penetration..

JPK, I agree with you, if all one is going after, is elephant, I will probably grab my double .470 Westley and call it good...but if there are other animals on the plate..believe I will stick with my .416..again, just in my experience, more versatile and all the penetration I need...

Thx

Ripp





Rip,

I heard about the foot race. Haven't seen the video. I don't think any man can know if he will break or not until he has faced an elephant coming fast at him. It is a truly impressive sight. Interestingly, both Buzz Charlton and Rich Tabor told me that few guys break and run for it. That's good news I guess since it would make for a really uncomfortable evening in camp, I'm sure!

According to Rich and Buzz, not all guys who don't break are contributing members of the team either. Some freeze, some become wild with their rifles... Both had had clients crap or piss themselves. A couple had given up elephant hunting right there on the spot too.

I've seen trackers head for the hills, and I've seen game scouts do so as well, and they're carrying automatic weapons, which scares the heck out of me.

But most guys do all right and both stand their ground and contribute to the common defense as they can, at least that is what I've been told.

JPK


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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: JPK]
      #122599 - 30/12/08 01:59 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Der Jaeger,


Rip,

I've seen trackers head for the hills, and I've seen game scouts do so as well, and they're carrying automatic weapons, which scares the heck out of me.

But most guys do all right and both stand their ground and contribute to the common defense as they can, at least that is what I've been told.

JPK





Funny you should state that---when we were chased a bit by a bull this year..one of the game scouts fire a shot over our heads while heading out..Ian ripped him a new one..but after out ears had taken the brunt of his shot...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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JPK
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Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD
Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: Ripp]
      #122601 - 30/12/08 02:26 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Der Jaeger,

With all the apparently phony, or at least innaccurate, hearsay so often repeated about the number of PH's recomending 375's I would have thought the ratio would have been lower.

My own experience regarding PH recomendations (for elephant) runs fairly similar to Boddington's polls, but with less representation of the bigger than 470 rifles. On the other hand, they often come with the caveat, "If the hunter is familiar with his rifle and accustomed to its recoil...," or similar. When the question of what if recoil is an issue is raised then I recall that the 375H&H and the 416's get about equal the number of secondary recomendations. The 375 because it is easy to shoot and the 416's because they offer more performance than the 375, if not as much as the 450's, and are viewed as a plausible compromise.

I've read Boddington's previous book "Safari Rifles." Good info for the most part, but he played favorites and did not do his research in several areas, 458wm performance being one that always comes to my attention. Every time I pull the trigger and see the results, either on the chronograph or on game, or speak with or read of a PH or former elephant culling officer who swears by it.

JPK





As in the case of Safari Rifles II--actually more praise than is warranted IMHO, is given by Boddington on the .458Win...it goes on to say that with todays advancement in powder and bullet technology, there is basically no fly in the ointment with the .458W...also stated that Hornady I believe, is loading a factory load with 2200 fps velocity with a 500 gr bullet..didn't think it could reach that level..curious what the pressures are at that velocity..

Boddington also goes on stating that in his opinion, the 458 Lott is the 45 to go with, in his self reported elephant hunting history..he states his elephant hunting experience is quite a bit more in the past 3 years..at least more than one..as I seen him shooting several in either "Tracks Across Africa" or on the DVD on elephant with Ivan Carter..


Also stated is a quote from Bell who basically stated if you don't place your shot on an elephant it does not matter whether you hit him with 100 or 10 million..your shot needs to find his mark..
Not sure I agree with that totally, as stated, there is evidence the big bores will turn a bull and that includes the .416...

Johan Calitz, who has a ton, (no pun intended) of elephant experience, states he has seen numerous failures by the older big Nitro calibers as to penetration...so, the issue of penetration again is raised..I am not trying to kill a dead horse hear...but, ....there is also a statements made in seveal areas of the book at the 416, in Rigby, Remington, whatever, traveling at 2400 fps with its long for caliber bullet of 400 grs will outpenetrate a .458 with a 500 even at 2200 every time...which makes sense as the 458 has less speed and more surface area to slow it down..also states the .416 will also turn a bull on a charge...

Actually laughed pretty hard when the story of using a .505 Gibbs, Harland shot a cow through both shoulders, the bullet then went on to hit another ele beside the tail and the bullet was found in the front portion of that cow..now that is penetration..

JPK, I agree with you, if all one is going after, is elephant, I will probably grab my double .470 Westley and call it good...but if there are other animals on the plate..believe I will stick with my .416..again, just in my experience, more versatile and all the penetration I need...

Thx

Ripp





Rip,

It only takes one elephant to have more than a ton of experience! About five tons of experience per, I think!

Sticking only to recent published "book loads" 2250fps is possible from a 458wm shooting 500grs out of a 24" barrel. AA2230 is one powder that will do this. See the Hotnaday book, current loads are the same as the previuos manual. This manual was recommended to me by Woodleigh, btw.

My test in winter and in summer with AA2230 show the powder to be pretty temperature insensative, delivering about the same velocity despite 50* or 60*F differences in temps, and also when the gun and ammo are left lying out in +95*F sunny days to heat up.

Also, some pressure test done on my behalf showed that most of the standard 458wm ammo - not the Hornaday Heavy Magnum load - is loaded well below SAAMI specs. My loads, 500grs at 2145fps, out of 26" barrels, is well below max, but over some of the slow factory stuff. I understand, but cannot confirm, that Euro ammo loaded to CIP specs allows a hotter loading.

I wouldn't load a 458wm to 2250fps with 500grs. No need imo. If I had a bolt rifle I would go to 2175-2200fps though. I have a Lott, but that one would be loaded to the similar velocities and not towrd 2300fps if I were to take it elephant hunting. I think a double rifle and elephant hunting go hand in hand. The ultimate choice for the ultimate game and the only situation where, imo, the double shows no real disadvantge and the next choice does and is significantly less than optimal. The more so the thicker the bush. The lions share of the bolt rifle using PH's seem to agree with this too.

For penetration, I'll always refer to Sectional Density and velocity. Two similar solid bullets, say Woodleighs, of equal sectional density will penetrate equally if velocity is equal. Add penetration by adding velocity. A 500gr .458" bullet will yeild better penetration than either a 400 or 410gr .416" bullet given equal velocity because of the higher SD, but when velocity isn't equal... I trade the added penetration of the 416 for the added thump of the 458. I think this is the way to go since the penetration of the 500grers at 2145fps has never been close to wanting. For more penetration, and no visibly less thump the flat nose .458" 450's would and do get my call. I think history is on my side.

When it comes to report of penetration failure with the big NE's, first I always wonder what the bullet was, an old cupro nickel jacketed or a newer Woodleigh steel jacketed, then I wonder about the velocity, then I wonder about the shot angle... Given my experience with two elephants shot with 500grers at 2050fps, I have to think that problems arise in the first two, either the bullet or the velocity, meaning that someone shot old ammo with cupro nickel jackets or it wasn't up to the century plus old, tried and true standard and someone tried to shave some recoil by loading down.

Don't forget, when thinking of bullet length, the work of some fellows, including, I believe, 500 Grains, on rifle twist and solid bullet stability and penetration in game. The same bullets at greater spin rates produce greater penetration in game. Corrally?, "Longer bullets need more twist to equal the penetration of shorter bullets, given the same velocity?" The Rigby is a slow twist relative, I think the Rem is much fater twist.

Fun debate, and without the acrimony and personal attacks that some debates, especially on other forums, devolve to.

JPK


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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5503
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: JPK]
      #122602 - 30/12/08 03:42 AM

Quote:

Don't forget, when thinking of bullet length, the work of some fellows, including, I believe, 500 Grains, on rifle twist and solid bullet stability and penetration in game. The same bullets at greater spin rates produce greater penetration in game.
JPK




JPK: Do you have a link to this?

I'd like to read the work done in this regard, particularly the actual twist rates compared. Very interesting. I have read comparisons of softs and spin revolutions-per-inch-penetration {reduced load terminal tests to duplicate performance at longer range, which is a similar concept} where slower rpip's showed essentially no difference in penetration.

For some reason I am thinking the British War Office Textbook of Small Arms 1929 has a reference to a similar study {can't remember the results} but I might be wrong there. I have a copy and I'll try to look that up.

Anyway, if you can point me to the link or post I'd appreciate it. Interesting stuff.

Intuitively it seems difficult to imagine that, say, a 14 inch twist would show much difference to a 16, but a 12 to a 20? More difficult "guess".

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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JPK
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: 9.3x57]
      #122617 - 30/12/08 06:35 AM

9.3,

I believe that 500 Grains, aka Dan McCarthy, has written articles in African Hunter Magazine on the topic, perhaps a search of their website will reveal the article. There are many references on AR too and I'll try to find a link later today.

Remember, the military would be seeking the 180* opposite result than an elephant hunter would be seeking. While they both want projectile stability in the air on the way to a target, that is where commonality ends. The military seeks bullets and spin rates, etc, that will become imediately unsatble and tumble in a target while the elephant hunter wants just the opposite.

Take as an example the US M16. Original twist rates barely stabilized the original light bullets. When the change was made to increase the bullet weight, all M16's needed new barrels with faster twist rates.

JPK


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