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JPK
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Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD
Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: Ripp]
      #122063 - 24/12/08 02:14 AM

Rem 416 factory quoted velocity = 2400fps. But All I've ever read is that they run 2250fps or so.

If you want an opinion comparing the 416 Rem and the 458wm, you need look no further than Alan Shearing of Charlton McCollum Safaris. Alan moved from a Model 70 in 458wm to a Model 70 in 416 Rem because he had shot out the barrel of his 458wm and it came to the point that it would no longer shoot accurately and needed to be rebarreled.

I had the opportunity to share a camp with him in November and he bemoaned the "loss" of his 458wm, much prefering the 458wm to the 416 Rem.

Allan is a bolt rifle guy, but extending his preference, he made it clear that he prferred 500grs at 2100fps to 400grs at 2250fps. In other words, this elephant hunting PH made it clear, as every PH I have ever spoken to or almost every one who has voiced an opinion, he preferred the big bore to the medium bore. Or almost direct comparisions, he preferred the ballistics of the 450NE or 470 to the ballistics of the 500/416.

Also, with the penetration that I've seen with my 458wm and that of the 470, I'm finding it hard to imagine a shot angle that would provide enough elephant head to not reach the brain. Any angle that I can imagine that might prove an issue for the 450 - 470 class ballistics poses an equal issue for ANY rifle because the only angles that might prove a penetration challenge include the tusks and tusk sockets. And its the ivory and bone that are the issue, not the distance from POI to brain. In other words, the concern is regarding whether any bullet will hold together in thaose densest of dense materials. Of course, more velocity = more concern for bullet integrity too.

As I've said, I am a great fan of enough penetration, but after a point, imo, it is better to trade some "excess" penetration for more bullet diameter and weight.

BTW, and FWIW, the vaunted and legendary penetration of the 375H&H shooting 300gr solids at 2550fps does not equal the penetration of the 458wm shooting 500gr Woodleigh solids at 2145fps. I know this from direct comparisons in elephant heads.

You have sold yourself on the 500/416, that is clear. I hope it proves to deliver just what you are looking for.

Merry Christmas,

JPK

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Ripp
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: JPK]
      #122078 - 24/12/08 06:24 AM

JPk.
Not heading out today, flight cancelled...storm both here and in Minneapolis..

The velocity I got was what I actually chronographed shooting it out of two different bolt 416's that I have..one custom shop Remington..the other, a higher end custom with a Schneider barrel..both spit them out at 2440 to 2450 or so...

As to the 500/416..no, I am not sold on i, just checking and like different calibers...in reality, I really like the 500 Nitro 3"---but not so sure it will do anything more than my .470 double I already have..I realize it shoots a bit heavier bullet --but not sure it would give any more penetration than the .470..

As to the amount needed for elephant..again, I am only going off of what I have been told by Lynn, the PH in Zim who has quite a bit of experience in Botswana --who stated on more than one occassion while I was there this year..that he has seen several instances where the 2150 was not enough to penetrate the bigger bulls...then I read it again in Boddingtons new book--and finally the article I read last week..between Lynn the PH and Boddington, there is close to 200 elephants shot..so figured they had some knowledge I could learn from..

As I think about this, and after watching the 2 dvd's on Boddington on Elephants, it is quite clear, it really does not matter it you shoot them with a .275 or a 600 Nitro..if you don't hit the brain, they ain't going down ...there are several shots in the DVD series I watched where more than one shot was fired on charging elephant..just as often as not, they did not go down if not hit correctly...

Curious question though--Have you hunted the big bulls in Botswana?? and if so, what was your experience there?? Lynn the PH, stated he has never had penetration problems in Zim..but has several times in Botswana..I never have...and this could be again, much to do about nothing,, but as I stated earlier, they have the experience with them, I do not, so will probably go with what they suggest..

Take Care

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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GarBy
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Reged: 20/12/04
Posts: 39
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: Ripp]
      #122092 - 24/12/08 09:50 AM

Well gents, mainly because I had some loaded rounds, but partially because you all got me fired up...I took the K-gun out today. Had crappy weather at 71* and sunny, but I made do. Same 410 Woodie softs and solids and same 108gr soft and 106.5gr solids loading of H1000...with Fed 215's of course. I think I lied....my 450 3.25" Searcy kicks MORE than the 500/416. That being said, the 500/416 will wake you up from a nap. I had forgotten just how accurate that gun is.
I personally think that a 410gr, .416 diameter bullet is about perfect for most anything out there....if you do YOUR job. I have not shot an elephant yet...2010...but I have shot buff, with both a 470 double and a 404 bolt gun. Both dead. This all being said, if I was strictly hunting elephants, I would choose the gun I did choose...a 500 Jeff bolt. However, if both buff and elephant were on the hit list and I had to take only one rifle, I would take a 416 in a minute....actually my 500/416. Taylor even states that for all around use aganist dangerous game in heavy cover, the 416 Rigby is about ideal....and a 500/416 loaded as I have it...is a 416 Rigby. In addition, my 500/416 velocities are REAL VELOCITIES taken 10' from the muzzles with an Oehler chrono. Robertson in his book states that some of the old velocities were a mite overstated. Regardless, a 500/416 double is one heck of an effective weapon if you hit him/her correctly. As big of an impact as my 500 Jeff....nope...but still a BIG wallop.
Plus, I'd make sure my PH wasn't carrying any "baby" rifle such as a 416 to back me up.

There's my $.05 worth.

Ripp....go get a 500/416 and I'll share some other load data with you....but I haven't been able to improve upon Krieghoff's H1000 data.

Merry Christmas to all.

Gary

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: Ripp]
      #122103 - 24/12/08 12:25 PM

Quote:

As I think about this, and after watching the 2 dvd's on Boddington on Elephants, it is quite clear, it really does not matter it you shoot them with a .275 or a 600 Nitro..if you don't hit the brain, they ain't going down ...there are several shots in the DVD series I watched where more than one shot was fired on charging elephant..just as often as not, they did not go down if not hit correctly...



I'm not an expert, but disagree with that statement in bold. They may not die, but may well drop stunned even unconscious.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
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JPK
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Reged: 31/08/04
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: NitroX]
      #122129 - 24/12/08 02:52 PM

Quote:

Quote:

As I think about this, and after watching the 2 dvd's on Boddington on Elephants, it is quite clear, it really does not matter it you shoot them with a .275 or a 600 Nitro..if you don't hit the brain, they ain't going down ...there are several shots in the DVD series I watched where more than one shot was fired on charging elephant..just as often as not, they did not go down if not hit correctly...



I'm not an expert, but disagree with that statement in bold. They may not die, but may well drop stunned even unconscious.



This is true. More frequent with cows than bulls, by alot. But either way a close miss may save your bacon, or that of the PH, trackers or game scout - if your using a big bore.

See again Buzz Charlton's DVD, where his refrain is, "...if the shooter were using a rifle shooting a 500gr bullets, this elephant would have dropped..." Recall, Buzz shoots a 416 Rigby.

JPK

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JPK
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: JPK]
      #122199 - 25/12/08 12:46 AM

Quote:

JPk.

As to the 500/416..no, I am not sold on i, just checking and like different calibers...in reality, I really like the 500 Nitro 3"---but not so sure it will do anything more than my .470 double I already have..I realize it shoots a bit heavier bullet --but not sure it would give any more penetration than the .470..

As to the amount needed for elephant..again, I am only going off of what I have been told by Lynn, the PH in Zim who has quite a bit of experience in Botswana --who stated on more than one occassion while I was there this year..that he has seen several instances where the 2150 was not enough to penetrate the bigger bulls...then I read it again in Boddingtons new book--and finally the article I read last week..between Lynn the PH and Boddington, there is close to 200 elephants shot..so figured they had some knowledge I could learn from..

As I think about this, and after watching the 2 dvd's on Boddington on Elephants, it is quite clear, it really does not matter it you shoot them with a .275 or a 600 Nitro..if you don't hit the brain, they ain't going down ...there are several shots in the DVD series I watched where more than one shot was fired on charging elephant..just as often as not, they did not go down if not hit correctly...

Curious question though--Have you hunted the big bulls in Botswana?? and if so, what was your experience there?? Lynn the PH, stated he has never had penetration problems in Zim..but has several times in Botswana..I never have...and this could be again, much to do about nothing,, but as I stated earlier, they have the experience with them, I do not, so will probably go with what they suggest..

Take Care

Ripp



Ripp,

I think most NE rifles will provide more penetration than the 470, if you're shooting the original loads. Most vintage rifles regulate at about 2025 or 2050fps it seems. But most newer rifles are regulated with the Federal load, which is hotter at about 2100 - 2150fps. Now 50 - 125fps doesn't sound like much, but it is when discussing penetration and the lower load is not all that far from minimum. The PH I elephant hunt with most uses a 470 and his rifle's performance wants for nothing.

I have not hunted Botswana bulls, but PH's I know have. They find no difference between big bulls any where. And Botswana bulls are not the largest, I've been told, the largest come from Kruger/Ghona Rhe Zhou. Perhaps the best example is Ivan Carter, who hunts quite a bit in Botswana and uses a 450NE 3 1/4" Heym. Ivan is still in love with his rifle; that would not be the case if it didn't provide the penetration required, or the stopping power required. Ivan likes to get close, and for non target bulls, has been know to approach until he can wrap the bull with the butt of his rifle. That is a man with (over?) confidence in his read of elephants and in his rifle too, eh?

Rather than a couple of guys with only the experience of a couple of hundred eles, matched in aggragate here on this forum, I'd rather rely on Richard Harlan and Ron Thomson, who between them killed roughly 9,000 elephants. They shot all manner of elephants from the huge Gona-Rhe-Zhou bulls to cows to youngsters. They used the 458wm with factory loads to do this. Neither reports any problem, ever, with their 458wm load performance. They used Winchester factory loads, which are beat by the 450NE.

Its true that bulls don't go down with missed brain shots a majority of times or even all that frequently. But, if the proverbial s--t hits the fan, dropping a bull isn't what you need, it is stopping the bull. Big bore NE rifles have a much better track record of doing this than any 416 or 404 or whatever. Watch again Buzz Charlton's DVD and count again how many times he repeates, "...if the hunter had been using a rifle that shot a 500gr bullet this elephant would have dropped..." Cows, more likely to be trouble to begin with, drop regularly from missed brain shots - so long as you are using a big bore.

If it were my choice, I'd stick with the 470 and use the savings on another bull quota. If the itch was just too bad, I'd go and get the 500.

BTW, for any of the frontal brain shots I've made or tried, if you were to expand the penetration required to brain the elephant by 50%, the results would still be the same, full penetration of the brain cavity and into the neck. For side Brain shots, I don't know since every one - except one that failed to penetrate at all - exited, but one.

No bull elephant is half again larger than the ones I've killed.

JPK

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Ripp
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: JPK]
      #122200 - 25/12/08 01:04 AM

Quote:

Quote:

JPk.

Ripp,

I have not hunted Botswana bulls, but PH's I know have. They find no difference between big bulls any where. And Botswana bulls are not the largest, I've been told, the largest come from Kruger/Ghona Rhe Zhou. Perhaps the best example is Ivan Carter, who hunts quite a bit in Botswana and uses a 450NE 3 1/4" Heym. Ivan is still in love with his rifle; that would not be the case if it didn't provide the penetration required, or the stopping power required. Ivan likes to get close, and for non target bulls, has been know to approach until he can wrap the bull with the butt of his rifle. That is a man with (over?) confidence in his read of elephants and in his rifle too, eh?

Rather than a couple of guys with only the experience of a couple of hundred eles, matched in aggragate here on this forum, I'd rather rely on Richard Harlan and Ron Thomson, who between them killed roughly 9,000 elephants. They shot all manner of elephants from the huge Gona-Rhe-Zhou bulls to cows to youngsters. They used the 458wm with factory loads to do this. Neither reports any problem, ever, with their 458wm load performance. They used Winchester factory loads, which are beat by the 450NE.

If it were my choice, I'd stick with the 470 and use the savings on another bull quota. If the itch was just too bad, I'd go and get the 500.

BTW, for any of the frontal brain shots I've made or tried, if you were to expand the penetration required to brain the elephant by 50%, the results would still be the same, full penetration of the brain cavity and into the neck. For side Brain shots, I don't know since every one - except one that failed to penetrate at all - exited, but one.

JPK




Man--have to admit---love this thread...

Most of the people you mentioned, I have actually met---Harland lives 2 blocks down from Lynn the PH I discussed--Ivan and I hung around a bit together last year at the SCI show in Reno...by the way, I had to laugh a bit on the Boddington Elephant DVD..as in how Ivan got that gun..per Ivan to my very ears, that was a GIFT by one of his clients as a "tip"...not that is a heck of a gift..



Agree with what you stated in regards to penetration, have not done the tests myself, but by what I have read, it is suggested the 450 and 465 actually do a bit better job than the 470 as to penetration...believe Taylor states that as well..

Have not made up my mind on anything..checking out my options...do agree with the post above however, not to beat a dead horse, but could not sleep last night, so at 2AM was reading Taylors book..he did state in his opinion, for thick or thin skinned game, he can find no better choice than the .416....so he does add some credence to the whole equation..personally one of my .416's has followed me on 4 trips so far..and God willing, it will come along again..BUT, if I am out soley for elephant..will keep looking for other options...more guns is good..
However do agree, makes more sense to take the $$ and buy another tag..



Thank you for your info...as I mentioned, you have shot more elephants than anyone I know other than Boddington, Carter, etc...so really do appreciate your input and advice..

Merry Christmas to all

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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Ripp
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: NitroX]
      #122214 - 25/12/08 02:02 AM

Quote:

Quote:

As I think about this, and after watching the 2 dvd's on Boddington on Elephants, it is quite clear, it really does not matter it you shoot them with a .275 or a 600 Nitro..if you don't hit the brain, they ain't going down ...there are several shots in the DVD series I watched where more than one shot was fired on charging elephant..just as often as not, they did not go down if not hit correctly...



I'm not an expert, but disagree with that statement in bold. They may not die, but may well drop stunned even unconscious.




John,

Perhaps I should have elaborated a bit more..what I should have said was it isn't going to kill them..it may turn them or stop a charge or temporarily tip them over, but you had best get right after it as they will get back up, with hell coming for breakfast ..

I do have Buzz's dvd, and it is awesome...but, also have Carter/Boddington's--numerous hits to the skull with BIG BORES...no brain..no ground stain..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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Der_Jaeger
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: Ripp]
      #122216 - 25/12/08 02:11 AM






John,

Perhaps I should have elaborated a bit more..what I should have said was it isn't going to kill them..it may turn them or stop a charge or temporarily tip them over, but you had best get right after it as they will get back up, with hell coming for breakfast ..

Ripp




Exactly! Again, when someone misses the mark, 42 thousandths of an inch in bullet diameter is not going to impress a 10,000 lb. animal one bit. Give me at least 400 grains, good velocity, and a damned tough bullet.

--------------------


Edited by Der_Jaeger (25/12/08 02:11 AM)

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9.3x57
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: Ripp]
      #122218 - 25/12/08 02:14 AM

Fascinating thread about a topic I likely will have no experience with, personally.

A couple questions:

First, you guys are discussing the technical merits of one cartridge vs another.

But what about what happens after you add the human element?

From my experience selling guns years ago, some of them in calibers you mention and to fellows going after big stuff, and range time with shooters in quite a number of states here, I'd say, dare I say, I do not believe many or even most of the guys hunting elephants even can shoot their heavies well. Did I say that? YES. And that is what I suspect drives some PH's to "shoot them for them" so-to-speak.

Mere money CAN buy elephant hunts as you guys know. A guy does not have to be a shooter or even a hunter to hunt elephants. You guys think and put the effort into something that others may merely "pay for".

I know the real answer to those heading for Africa is; "Get out and shoot your rifle and learn your rifle". More shooting for most of those worthies only means developing a worse flinch. So, seriously, JPK and RIPP and others, in the real world of hunting, where fellows are going to maybe if they are lucky shoot one or less than a half dozen elephant, what calibers would you recommend?

A .375 they can consistently hit a cinderblock with at 50 yards or a .458 that...

Can you guys make a "broad sweeping", reality-based {limitations of most hunters} recommendation? I bet there are those who are reading this thread who fit into the category of potential hunter of elephant but who are "normal" and cannot hit well with a big rifle...

I closely knew a father and son who had experience on hundreds of elephant in the Congo and remember what they told me, but I am very interested in what you guys think.

In other words; "How much does caliber make up for what might {likely...?} be poor shooting...?"

One last thing NOT related directly to the .416...I am very unsure of Taylor's actual field experience compared to many well-known and proven, modern PH's. I always take his stuff with a grain of salt, tho for sure he seems to have been proven right in most circumstances. Personally, I think he may have been as much of a perceptive barfly as he was a hunter of vast elephant killing experience. Another topic for another day...

Again, thanks for providing a rivetting {no pun intended...} and penetrating {...} discussion!!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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JPK
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: Der_Jaeger]
      #122235 - 25/12/08 04:30 AM

Quote:






John,

Perhaps I should have elaborated a bit more..what I should have said was it isn't going to kill them..it may turn them or stop a charge or temporarily tip them over, but you had best get right after it as they will get back up, with hell coming for breakfast ..

Ripp




Exactly! Again, when someone misses the mark, 42 thousandths of an inch in bullet diameter is not going to impress a 10,000 lb. animal one bit. Give me at least 400 grains, good velocity, and a damned tough bullet.



Der Jaeger,

You are wrong. More than a century of history proves it. I refer you again to Buzz Charlton's DVD. What you say just isn't true. If it were than the fellows who made their living and risked their lives would have been using the 416 Rigby. But, until recently, the Rigby was never very popular in africa, nowhere near as popular as the the 450 NE's alone.

.042", about 10% more energy and about 25% more bullet weight. Not insignificant.

JPK

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JPK
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: Ripp]
      #122237 - 25/12/08 04:54 AM

Ripp, I have shot many more elephants than Boddington. That isn't bragging or saying much because he hunted but one elephant long ago and then didn't return to elephant hunting until very recently.

Ivan on the other hand

It is as easy to hit the brain with a 375H&H, 416 of any description or 450 class rifle, assuming the same sights. There is no difference with any of the cartridges when the brain is hit. The significant difference is when the bain is not hit, but you can't rely on it since there isn't always a significant difference. So, Why not use the more powerful rifle, you don't foreclose making the right shot to begin with and using a big bore might end up saving the day; if its gotten ugly and an ele has come charging, the big bore may well save your life or someone elses. It's saved mine, or a tracker's, twice. Refer back to Buzz'z DVD!

If you're on Taylor's chapter about the 416, it isn't much different than the chapter about the 450/400. Lots of praise, etc, etc, etc... blah, blah, blah... Keep reading, eventually you'll get to either the elephant hunting chapter where he begins with 450's as minimums in the thick stuff (but wanders) or to his description of the rifles he used, a 450NE No2 and a 465H&H, for the great, great bulk of his elephant hunting.

Better to practice what Taylor (and Nychens and Harlan and Thomson and... and...) practiced than to practice what he preaches. Same is true of Ganyana who uses (or used) a 458 Lott. Use a big bore!

Merry Christmas!!!

JPK

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: Ripp]
      #122262 - 25/12/08 02:32 PM

Quote:

Perhaps I should have elaborated a bit more..what I should have said was it isn't going to kill them..it may turn them or stop a charge or temporarily tip them over, but you had best get right after it as they will get back up, with hell coming for breakfast ..

I do have Buzz's dvd, and it is awesome...but, also have Carter/Boddington's--numerous hits to the skull with BIG BORES...no brain..no ground stain..



I agree.

However there has been cases of a missed brain shot by a small margin on a bull still killing the bull. Shock alone? Amazing but true.

I agree however that hitting the brain is FAR FAR better than missing it! (joke only) Especially if Tumbo is thundering down!

On my limited experience on cows I have been happy to see the brain leaking out of the ears.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Ripp
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: NitroX]
      #122281 - 26/12/08 01:57 AM

I really appreciate everyones thoughts on this..for me, and I assume those who have as well, one can literally remember the actual hunt while discussing elephants and calibers..everything from JPK discussing all is exploits with elephants to John seeing the brain coming out of the ears..good stuff...

JPK, you have my attention...had no idea you have taken that many elephant...impressive..
So, what velocity is your ammo running and what bullets do you use? I know we have discussed this before, but just want to confirm..I do have a german built Sauer in 458Win. at home..bought it from a trust funder whose grandfather had hunted in Africa many times..had it checked out for working order..shoots quite well...

One thing I will state, in a dangerous game area such as Chewore North, I will never go on a long walk/hunt carrying anything less than a .375 but again, prefer my 416 instead..too many close calls making the 30 cals look quite small..and shooting softs too boot...

I read a really good article last evening in HANDLOADER magazine on reloading the .308--while I realize entirely different circumstances--it provided info on how various bullet types held up under the test in regards to accuracy, weight retention, bullet consistency, etc..very indepth article and well worth the read no matter what you are shooting..

Thanks again and Merry Christmas..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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JPK
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: Ripp]
      #122287 - 26/12/08 04:01 AM

Ripp,

Like I was saying having shot more elephants than Boddingtoon has is no real accomplishment as I understand things. As I recall Boddingtons own writing, he had only shot one elephant until recently. He was nutso for buff hunting and concentrated on that.

I have taken eighteen now. But that isn't as many as some of the other members here, including, I think, some who have posted on this thread. IIRC, ten of the elephant I have shot went down to brain shots, at least one was a second shot and the ele did not drop at the first. The other eight, well, lets just say that if at first you don't succeed, try , try again.

I now shoot 500gr Woodleighs for the first shot, at 2145fps, and 450 North Fork flat nose solids in the second barrel, at about 2200fps. Ballistics essentially identicle to those of the 450NE's or the Federal 470 loads.

All of the elephant I have shot have been with the loads listed above, but two. Those two were shot with 500gr Woodleighs at 2050fps, which is enough, but 2145fps provides substantially more of everything, knock down or out effect, penetration...

Since I have been a one gun guy with respect to elephants, I have been very curious and inquisitive regarding how other cartidges perform. I've tried penetration test using .458" bullets at various velocities in dead elephants and I've tried my 375H&H solid load too. For other cartidges, I've gotten PH Rich Tabor to shoot a couple of 470 loads with 500gr Woodleighs for testing and have been able to dig for a couple of Buzz's 416 Rigby solids in elephant bodies as well, shot into two elephants on which I missed the first brain shot. I have relied on what PH's have observed when guiding clients, especially when discussing other cartridges I have no experience with. I can tell you that the two PH's I know who use 416's, Buzz Charlton (Rigby) and Allan Shearing (Remington), both regard the 450-470 class as better alternatives for elephant hunting. On the other hand, all who shoot 458wm, 458Lott or Ackeley or 470's have been fully satisfied with their rifles. For a good number of the later group their first rifles were 375's which they were pleased to be able to move away from, and upward from.

I agree with you 100% regarding carrying a 375H&H or better in elephant heavy areas. As one writer put it, "When in elephant country, carry an elephant rifle." We've had ele problems before when doing nothing but hunting for sable or warthog or whatever. I load one or two softs and then the rest solids. My 375 with a soft has provided the warning shot over an eles head, keeping the two 470 solids in the PH's rifle in reserve in case they were needed.

If I ever find that I need or want to carry a light rifle, I think I'll load three solids down and top off with a solid on top and one up the spout. A 30-06 220gr solid would be better than a stick, which is what the rifle is without solids.

If you choose the 500/416, I am sure you will find it sufficient. And perfect for cats.

JPK

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Anonymous
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: 9.3x57]
      #122288 - 26/12/08 04:49 AM

Quote:

Mere money CAN buy elephant hunts as you guys know. A guy does not have to be a shooter or even a hunter to hunt elephants. You guys think and put the effort into something that others may merely "pay for".



Very true.

I have never shot a cow, just bulls (7) so far. I can say from my own personal experience that many times over, the hunt would have put me in great peril had I not had the right gun. As such, my 470, 577 or 600 is what I pull when hunting Elephant, not because other calibres won't do the job, but because that is where my "faith" lies. It really comes down to what you feel comfortable with, while making certain it has enough uuuummff to get the job done. Taking into account that you may very well be put into a tight and very dangerous spot, this is where velocity and energy play in to it. A 470 is a great one carry gun imo, for all African bush hunting, a 500/416 would not be my first choice for the biggest game however.

JPK, 18 is an impressive number. I can tell you have learned a lot from being around them so much. They really are very smart magnificent animals. I have always felt a weird high after taking one, part total adrenalin and glory, to sadness and short lived depression for ending the life of such a fabulous beast. It's like there life flashes inside of you afterward as you swallow there soul and make way for camp and LOTS more Brandy to take it all in..

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: ]
      #122363 - 26/12/08 11:54 PM

Quote:

JPK, 18 is an impressive number.



Indeed.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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EricD
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: NitroX]
      #122367 - 27/12/08 01:50 AM

FWIW, since Ganyana was mentioned on the thread, I got this e-mail from him a couple of days ago:

"HI Erik

Cannot log on long enough to make a post- Please comment that I briefly used a .458 Lott- Shot one hippo with it. Currently still use my 9,3 for everything and carry a .500/416 to back up clients or looking for wounded things in the thick stuff

Cheers"

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JPK
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Reged: 31/08/04
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Loc: Chevy Chase, MD
Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: EricD]
      #122369 - 27/12/08 03:16 AM

"I can tell you have learned a lot from being around them so much. They really are very smart magnificent animals. I have always felt a weird high after taking one, part total adrenalin and glory, to sadness and short lived depression for ending the life of such a fabulous beast. It's like there life flashes inside of you afterward as you swallow there soul and make way for camp and LOTS more Brandy to take it all in.. "

The day I shoot an elephant and don't feel the mixed emotions, the adrenelin, the sadness, and all,... is the last day I'll shoot an elephant.

Based on the last elephant hunt I've got many more to go though. I was shaking like a leaf after the last one. And its funny, when the shot goes perfectly and the rear end sags, the head rises, the shakes begin just about immeadiately. But when the shot ain't perfect there is a long delay and the emotions are not so intense.

In regards to anyone who thinks elephant hunting is just paying money to stroll up and shoot an elephant, well, they just need to shut up go try it. Better have a good fitting and well broken in pair of boots though.

Eric,

Thanks for the relay. Must be a pita over in Zim. In and out for the Lott for Ganayana. Too much recoil for his shoulder, I guess. Hopefully he will be able to rspond before Mugabe passes away or hell freezes over, or maybe we'll all get lucky and...

JPK

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9.3x57
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: JPK]
      #122371 - 27/12/08 04:20 AM

Of the PH's CURRENTLY guiding elephant hunts, what is the most common caliber used?

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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JPK
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: 9.3x57]
      #122407 - 27/12/08 02:33 PM

Those I know, or at least those that come to mind this evening:

Richard Tabor - 470
Peter Wood - 458 Lott
Colin Van Der Linden - 458 Ackley
Tierry LaBatt - 458 Lott
Butch Coaton - 458wm
Richard Cooke - 470?
Winston ? - 458wm
Buzz Charlton - 416 Rigby, but has purchased a 450NE and is awaiting ammo and/or components
Myles McCallum - 458 Lott?
Allan Shearing - 416Rem, but awaiting the rebarrel of his favorite, the 458wm
Terry Fenn - 458wm
Ivan Carter - 450NE
Andrew Dawson - 470
Steve Robinson - 505 Gibbs

I'll add to this list as more come to mind.

JPK

Edited by JPK (27/12/08 03:00 PM)

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ozhunter
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: JPK]
      #122438 - 28/12/08 12:10 AM

Ian Gibson 458win
Stu Taylor 458win
Mike Taylor 458lott
Andy Hunter 416rem
Charlie Stanton 375H&H
Matt Stanton 470NE
Bill Lemon 460W
Johnathan Taylor 458Win
Rex Hoets 500J
John Sharp 470NE
John Greef 470NE

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Der_Jaeger
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: ozhunter]
      #122442 - 28/12/08 01:30 AM

Andre Roux - .416 Taylor
Cliff Walker - .577
Jeff Rann - .500/.465
Roger Whittall - .500/.465
Mike Payne - .470
Johan Calitz - .470 & .500
Geoff Broom - .450 Dakota
Strang Middleton - .425 WR
Peter Butland - .416 Rigby

--------------------

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9.3x57
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: Der_Jaeger]
      #122446 - 28/12/08 02:02 AM

So far 85% for .450+ guns. Counting the two guys that are stepping up as .450+'ers.

What do these fellows recommend their clients bring with them?

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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Der_Jaeger
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Re: 500/416 experience's [Re: 9.3x57]
      #122449 - 28/12/08 02:28 AM

Quote:

So far 85% for .450+ guns. Counting the two guys that are stepping up as .450+'ers.

What do these fellows recommend their clients bring with them?



The survey of PH's in Boddington's new book states the following PH recommendations for all thick skinned game in any cirumstance:

Caliber..................................# Respondents

.470NE ............................... 20
.416 Rem., Rigby, Wby........ 16
.458 Lott ............................14
.458 Win Mag ......................10
.375 H&H, Wby, Ruger..........10
.500 Jeffrey...........................8
.500-3" NE...........................8
.450 3 1/4" NE ...................5
.505 Gibbs ........................ 4
.450 Dakota ........................2
.475 #2 J ............................1
.450 Rigby.............................1
.450 Ackely .........................1
.450 #2 ..............................1
.425 WR ..............................1

--------------------


Edited by Der_Jaeger (28/12/08 02:33 AM)

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