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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Mauser Discussion Forum
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xausa
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Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
BRNO dilemma
      #120991 - 12/12/08 10:37 AM

For a couple of years now I have been the owner of a BRNO 21F carbine in caliber 8X57IS. It is completely unaltered and has the knurled receiver ring characteristic of this model. It does not have the integral scope bases found on the 22F model.

Unfortunately, it is equipped only with open sights, and my vision is such that I simply cannot use open sights. However, I am very reluctant to alter this original specimen to fit either receiver sights or scope mounts. Unless I do so, it is merely a museum piece, and I prefer not to own rifles I cannon shoot.

I own another BRNO in this same caliber, a 22H, which does have the integral bases and has now been fitted with a set of Warne rings and an appropriate scope, but it is a rifle, not a carbine.

Any suggestions for a solution to my dilemma, other than donating the carbine to a deserving volunteer?

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mehulkamdar
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Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: BRNO dilemma [Re: xausa]
      #120996 - 12/12/08 11:18 AM

Xausa,

Please don't alter the rifle. If you have children, they would be the right people to give the rifle to, if you find it difficult to hunt with open sights. I understand your problem as I now need spectacles though these are only for working on my computer and I have been using some glasses for reading for some time. I will soon need to use glasses for my vision also, no doubt about it. It is a pain using glasses, no doubt.

But, do post pictures here and show the sweet old girl off.

Good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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Caprivi
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Reged: 30/09/08
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Loc: America's Serengeti, Buffalo W...
Re: BRNO dilemma [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #121001 - 12/12/08 12:05 PM

If you have been thru some adventures with it and it is a piece that has some attachment then by all means keep it. If not trade it off for a 22H carbine.

I am with Mehul, don't alter it. Hell, if Barack Hussien Obama gets his way you will have free health care and you can get RK surgery and see 20/20 again.

--------------------
To live life as it is handed to me from God

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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
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Re: BRNO dilemma [Re: Caprivi]
      #121005 - 12/12/08 01:18 PM

How about a bolt peep?

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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pjaln
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Reged: 08/06/06
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Re: BRNO dilemma [Re: mickey]
      #121007 - 12/12/08 02:13 PM

xausa,i would say dont alter the gun because i,m a collector , but on the other hand if the right scope setup was put on it like maybe a claw type utilizing the first inch of the barrel and just the rear bridge then maybe it would not be so bad ,the problem is if you want to hunt with this rifle in particular and hunting with another is going to bother you then you have to do something ,havent looked for one lately but i,m sure there are others around , i,m wrestling right now with wether to add a side mount on a sprigfield griffin&howe that ive had for years when the extra cash is around i think i,m going to send it to G&H and have it done , new england custom gun may have a mount setup that would work as far as looks go....paul

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: BRNO dilemma [Re: Caprivi]
      #121054 - 13/12/08 07:29 AM

Quote:

Hell, if Barack Hussien Obama gets his way you will have free health care and you can get RK surgery and see 20/20 again.



: Don't want to burst the Socialist bubble, but free health care isn't, if it's anything like ours. I pay $100.00 per month for free health care : it took 1 1/2 years to get an operation on my back - it took 6 months to get an MRI on my shoulder - was referred/transferred to an Orthopedic Surgeon last April - they haven't even called to confirm me being their patient as of yet. I was told by my MD they would not call for confirmation for 6 to 8 months - today is 8 months since my referral. They still haven't called. Such is Socialist medicine here in BC, Canada. I was told by my MD that orthopedic SURGERIES take 1 1/2 years to 2 years. Right now, it's 3/4 year and I'm not a patiend on the waiting list yet!

Yay for free Public health care!

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (13/12/08 07:30 AM)

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Caprivi
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Reged: 30/09/08
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Loc: America's Serengeti, Buffalo W...
Re: BRNO dilemma [Re: DarylS]
      #121069 - 13/12/08 12:51 PM

Hey Xausa, any update you your thinking of what to do ??? I was thinking, that back a few years ago I had a customer with a similar situation and a I made a mount base that fit in the rear sight base. On this I mounted on of the small Halo sights intented for handguns. I don't remember the one but will research it.


Hey Daryl, Not wanting to hi-jack this thread, but my health insurance is 507.00 a month and 10,000.00 deductable. Supposedly its great to be self-employed. This is thru a private policy. Hussien thinks I will need to go on the goverment dole and if I don't "choose" to insure my worker, the goverment will for a "small fee" a month.

--------------------
To live life as it is handed to me from God

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Caprivi
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Reged: 30/09/08
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Loc: America's Serengeti, Buffalo W...
Re: BRNO dilemma [Re: Caprivi]
      #121072 - 13/12/08 01:22 PM

It was a little Holo sight made by Fire Sight in England. Sold here in the states by Tasco as there Optima 2000, also sold JP Rifles. Certainly not the most classic looking but worked well.

--------------------
To live life as it is handed to me from God

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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
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Re: BRNO dilemma [Re: Caprivi]
      #121073 - 13/12/08 01:36 PM

Xausa:

It is your gun. MANY times we look at old guns and wonder about the modifications made, why, and what stories they can tell.

My opinion follows:

If you don't need it and if you need the money, sell it. If you need the value difference between what you could get for it undrilled and what you could get drilled, leave it alone and sell it. Remember, a gun that is modified isn't worth NOTHING. It is merely worth somewhat less than one unmodified.

If you want a useful tool, a gun with which to actually harvest game, do to it whatever you think will make it a more efficient game-getter. If you decide to sell it some day, you'll get its modified value AND have had the use of it all those years.

That is why nI do not hesitate to chop, drill, rasp or file any gun I own.

But then, I am not a collector, and I do not invest in guns.

BTW: that is a dandy shootin iron!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
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Re: BRNO dilemma [Re: 9.3x57]
      #121074 - 13/12/08 02:17 PM

xausa

9ThreeXFifty7 has a point. While I am sure it is a nice rifle but if you are going to get a few years use and enjoyment out of it, as opposed to it sitting in the closet, then why not just put mounts on it?

You don't need to put on Weaver bases. You can put on some nice looking ones from Leopold or have a gunsmith make you some that fit the rifle.

If you are worried about the loss of value and the cost of mounts than just sell it and buy what you want.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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buckbrush
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Reged: 23/08/07
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Loc: Alberta
Re: BRNO dilemma [Re: mickey]
      #121540 - 19/12/08 11:59 AM

I don't really consider Brno 21-22's to be collectors items not to be modified. There are a lot of them in Canada, and a lot of them are modified already. 8x57's seem to be the least valuable caliber.

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John303
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Re: BRNO dilemma [Re: buckbrush]
      #121578 - 20/12/08 12:57 AM

Maybe just a bit OT but how many of you have seen / have scopes made specifically for the Brno with integral mounts. I have one for my 21H and know of one more. I don't think many buyers ordered this combo. I might add that the windage is ring adjustabe and elevation is in the scope. --- John303.

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xausa
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Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
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Re: BRNO dilemma [Re: John303]
      #121581 - 20/12/08 01:09 AM

Unless you are referring to the unusual claw mounts used by both BRNO post World War II sporting rifles and on the sniper rifles produced for the Waffen SS, I don't know what you are referring to. Could you possibly grace us with some photos?

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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
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Re: BRNO dilemma [Re: xausa]
      #121590 - 20/12/08 04:45 AM

Yes, John, a picture please. I have a 21H with the integral bases. I got it with a Lyman Alaskan and Weaver rings with a funky Weaver base that fit the dovetails.

I would appreciate seeing a setup from BRNO.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
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Re: BRNO dilemma [Re: mickey]
      #121607 - 20/12/08 09:16 AM

Zeiss Jena did a scope with integral mounts to fit Brno dovetails.
(might have been a rail mount)
From memory they were either 4 or 6 power magnification, and had both the elevation and windage turrets mounted on top of the scope, one turret sitting directly behind the other.

Edited by 4seventy (20/12/08 09:35 AM)

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John303
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Reged: 16/11/06
Posts: 243
Loc: Canada
Re: BRNO dilemma [Re: 4seventy]
      #121615 - 20/12/08 10:16 AM

To answer some ?s, this set up is not any type of claw mount, nor is the windage adjustment on/in the scope itself. This scope had to be specific for the Brno. 4-70 is close but the only scope I know that fits his description are the older Weatherby scopes (does anybody haveone for sale?) but I don't know everything. I will try and take some pics. during the holidays and have someone post them. Sorry xausa I don' mean to pirate your thread and will start another if you wish. --- John 303.

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4seventy
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Re: BRNO dilemma [Re: John303]
      #121618 - 20/12/08 10:46 AM

I used to have some old hunting magazines that showed Brnos fitted with the scope that I referred to.
Couldn't find the magazines so googled and came up with what I was talking about.
I got it wrong regarding the two turrets on top being elevation and windage though.
Turns out that windage is done at the mount, and one turret is for elevation and the other is internal focus.

Try this link.

http://czechpistols82792.yuku.com/topic/...pe.html?page=-1

Edited by 4seventy (20/12/08 12:37 PM)

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4seventy
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Re: BRNO dilemma [Re: xausa]
      #121625 - 20/12/08 11:57 AM

xausa,
It is not an easy decision for sure, and personally I'd say don't do it.
If it was mine, and a scope had to be fitted for some reason, there is no way I'd alter that rifle to take some "over the counter" type scope mounts.
The old Brno rifles deserve better than that IMO.
If you decide to fit a scope, my choice would be to use the claw mount, or quality european pivot mount, and be certain the job is done by someone who can do it right.
I've seen a few old high quality bolt rifles over the years, which have had mounts like tasco or similar fitted to them by some hack, and they looked real bad.
Let us know what you decide.

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John303
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Reged: 16/11/06
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Re: BRNO dilemma [Re: 4seventy]
      #121631 - 20/12/08 12:50 PM

4-70 that's the idea, the only difference is rings go around the scope and are permanately soldered? in place, only one turret and a locking pin to hold the knob in position after adjustment. I have seen a few of these rifles and in almost every instance someone has played with the mounts, in most cases mounted ( e.g. Weavers) on top of dove tails. The other "little" alteration you run across is the removal of the rear set trigger - what a shame. --- John 303.

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mickey
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Re: BRNO dilemma [Re: John303]
      #121638 - 20/12/08 01:43 PM

No problem with drilling holes but how can someone be so stupid as to remove the set trigger?

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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John303
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Re: BRNO dilemma [Re: mickey]
      #121686 - 21/12/08 12:55 AM

Mick, I agree but I now have 3 Mausers with the back trigger removed, the units are fairly pricey - around $200 for the unit alone not to mention installation. Better to save the unit and install a military trigger which are dime a dozen. This is the road I have taken till I either find / make replacements. FYI, the set triggers on a 21 Brno are mounted right in the bottom metal assembly so to install a single trigger, of some sort, one would have mill away the trigger assembly / get other bottom metal. About a month ago I got interested in an 8mm Brno until I picked it up, some one not only drilled holes but got the file out, I don't know why but it looked like some one tried to install Sako tapered rings, done properly (milled) it would have looked OK (and could be an option and look pretty slick) but with a file - makes one wonder. --- John303.

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9.3x57
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Re: BRNO dilemma [Re: 4seventy]
      #121688 - 21/12/08 01:12 AM

Quote:


The old Brno rifles deserve better than that IMO.



These mind-bender discussions are always interesting. Really brings out the different ways to see an issue.

In response to the statement above, I wonder this; Do they?

Seriously, with no criticism of the gun intended, but the Brno rifles are really only sort-of moderately-priced collectors. They might increase in value, true, but at present they can't be said to be the equal in the collecting world to a, say, Original Mauser or one of the big name English guns. My opinion personally is thaey they are so desireable precisely because they can be used and really enjoyed without regard for ruining some huge collector value. USING a rifle to me far outweighs merely owning one {that's where I am coming from}.

Please, let's get a price-check here; What is the rifle worth RIGHT NOW??

1} What would the rifle be worth; RIGHT NOW WITH WARNE BASES/RINGS ADDED {just using them for example}??

2} What is the cost of a brand new similar-quality current-production rifle??

Answers to those questions might make the final answer much more clear.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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mickey
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Re: BRNO dilemma [Re: 9.3x57]
      #121713 - 21/12/08 05:51 AM

Quote:

Quote:


The old Brno rifles deserve better than that IMO.



These mind-bender discussions are always interesting. Really brings out the different ways to see an issue.

In response to the statement above, I wonder this; Do they?

Seriously, with no criticism of the gun intended, but the Brno rifles are really only sort-of moderately-priced collectors. They might increase in value, true, but at present they can't be said to be the equal in the collecting world to a, say, Original Mauser or one of the big name English guns. My opinion personally is thaey they are so desireable precisely because they can be used and really enjoyed without regard for ruining some huge collector value. USING a rifle to me far outweighs merely owning one {that's where I am coming from}.

Please, let's get a price-check here; What is the rifle worth RIGHT NOW??

1} What would the rifle be worth; RIGHT NOW WITH WARNE BASES/RINGS ADDED {just using them for example}??

2} What is the cost of a brand new similar-quality current-production rifle??

Answers to those questions might make the final answer much more clear.



Once again you have hit the nail square.

They are $600-900 in Canada and $1000-1200 in the US. If you want to scope it than you should just go ahead and do it.

That said, I love my 21H. It is the best Deer rifle I have ever owned. Very light, fits well, shoots like a million dollars and is every bit the rifle a true Mauser is. It has a spoon handle and that can be better with gloves but it is a minor and only occasional problem.

I would not hesitate to drill holes for a scope if I found a BRNO rifle I liked and add a NICE looking scope mount.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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John303
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Re: BRNO dilemma [Re: mickey]
      #121729 - 21/12/08 09:37 AM

I understand the working vs. collecting argument(s) and the many different view points on the subject(s). I personally don't hesitate to use any I own and "take care" of. Still it is a shame to take an unspoiled gun and mess with it, there are lots of already messed with rifles out there to play with, some quite well done by experts. If you own a gun and you "really" like it "take care" of it as it is you may not be happy, after making changes to it - that's the dilemma, been there done that. --- John 303.

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4seventy
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Re: BRNO dilemma [Re: 9.3x57]
      #121766 - 21/12/08 07:57 PM

9Three & Mick,
Collector value had nothing to do with what I said about the rifle deserving better.
I don't buy any guns for collector value, they are all bought to be used on a regular basis.

Early Brno rifles, ZG's m21's etc, are not easy to find here in Oz.
If or when you find one, it is highly unlikely the price will be anywhere near $900 unless the seller was born yesterday.

The rifles are what they are so long as they are original.
Once someone has drilled holes in the action to fit their idea of a suitable scope mount, the gun has been ****ed with, pure and simple, and the way it has been done may not be the next persons idea of nice job or well done.
I've seen quite a few nice rifles stuffed up like this over the years.

I didn't say don't ever scope it.
I did say if it was mine I wouldn't scope it.

My point was that these are very good quality rifles regardless of the dollar figure they might sell for, and if you decide to scope it, do it well and don't just drill it to take some crappy old cheap mounts.

Edited by 4seventy (22/12/08 08:34 AM)

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