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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns
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billeastern
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Reged: 28/11/08
Posts: 56
Loc: New York
4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initially
      #119717 - 29/11/08 07:43 AM

Hello Gents:

Sorry for the double post - based on what I have seen should have posted initially here. Copied and pasted initial post below... Thanks.


"Happy Thanksgiving! I am new to this forum and to muzzleloading but first off let me thank everyone here for the tremendous wealth of information you all provide. I have been pouring through these forums for some time now while contemplating a project and the knowledge base here is amazing. Having said that I will approach this as all new guys do - with some questions, which I hope you might be able to help me with. I have been shooting for almost 20 years now - everything from 22LR to 500 Nitro. Always CF. About a year ago I got bitten with the ML blackpowder ball gun bug and began reading through all the old books by Finaughty, Selous, Baker, Sanderson, etc. which as you all probably know only makes the bug bite harder. So about a month ago I engaged a well known shop to build me a 4 bore ML. The dimensions are as follows:

Bore mics at approx 1.015
32" barrel 1-3/4 - 1-1/2 taper octagon
Rifled for fast ball shooting 1:144 twist
Percussion RH
Classic Manton Stock

Those are the specs and since I am having the gun built for me figured it would be fun to do some research on my own about balls, bullets, powder, etc. Guess I just enjoy educating myself before I go into something. So here goes:

1. Was planning on shooting patched round balls - what size ball/patch combo would you recommend for that bore size? What would the ball probably weigh?
2. Would you recommend a wad or nitro card with this gun?
3. What powder charge do you recommend? Seems from what I have read 12 to 16 drams ffg would be appropriate and hard hitting on both ends :-). Any particular brand you would recommend?
4. Finally, I really wanted to shoot balls with the gun, hence the rifling but on the off chance I ever wanted to shoot a conical would that be possible with this barrel? Any reco re: conical size, diameter, etc? I believe I would need to know the groove depth to figure this one out. Saw some interesting very short moulds on NEI site that are almost square and thought might work if pushed fast enough.

I realize this is a bunch of q's and I will also ask my smith when the time comes but I really enjoy educating myself. Apologize for the many amateurish questions and thanks in advance for any advice! If this post would be better suited to "Paradox and Bore Guns" forum please let me know."

Again, have a happy Thanksgiving and thanks for this informative forum.

Best,

Bill

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DarylS
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Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initially [Re: billeastern]
      #119769 - 29/11/08 06:26 PM

While I've never loaded for a 4 bore, my standard rule is for a ball no more than .005" under bore size. This is for balls up to about 14 bore in size. Over that, if using a tight (thich) patch, one can go as much as .015" under bore size. for the monstrous 4 bore, one might even expand that to .020" - depending on groove depth. That means you should use a ball not less than .995" in diameter. i would go with an even inch and a .025" to .030" denim patch.

Measure the groove diameter to find the depth of rifling. Subtract the ball's diameter from the groove diameter, 1/2 the product and that is the THINNEST patch would can use with a pure lead ball. If the rifling is only .010" or so, ie: shallow, you can get by with a ball cast of straight WW metal - cheap for the asking at any tire changing gas station - usually.

If you meant the groove (not the bore) diameter was 1.015", that puts the actual bore somewhat tighter & the ball will have to be somewhat smaller than mentioned above - by .005" to .020" les than actual bore size. You must know both dimensions to make an educated guess at what to get for mould and patch thickness.

Again, make the ball from .005" to .020" smaller than the actual bore (tops of the lands) and go with 12 to 14 pound denim for the patch.(.023" to .030"). The patch must have some thickness to it, to obsorb enough lube to keep the fouling soft and allow repeated shots. If this is your first ML rifle, you've a long learning curve ahead. Enjoy.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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billeastern
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Reged: 28/11/08
Posts: 56
Loc: New York
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: DarylS]
      #119790 - 30/11/08 01:05 AM

Thanks Daryl. Appreciate the advice. I asked my smith for the bore size so assume he gave me the bore measurement but will double check. Feel that learning curve creeping up on me but hey that is what makes it fun! Thx again. Assuming a .995 - 1" ball would be about 1500 grains.?.?

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: billeastern]
      #119885 - 01/12/08 12:28 AM

You might find that it will be around 2000 gns.
Al

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

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szihn
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Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #119896 - 01/12/08 02:59 AM

Who made the barrel? They are the ones to ask for measurements and rifling geometry. I only know 3 placed to get 4 bore barrels as of now. Ed Rayl, Ken Owen and Oregon Barrel. All have their 'standard" way of cutting them, but all will give you anything you ask for if you ask for it.
I assume the barrel is already made? Or am I wrong there?

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billeastern
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Reged: 28/11/08
Posts: 56
Loc: New York
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: szihn]
      #119905 - 01/12/08 04:04 AM

Thanks for all the help guys. Steve after seeing all your posts I though of pming you directly but did not want to appear pushy. Barrel made by Bill Moody. Already made. I am just trying to take the opportunity to educate myself while the gun is being made. Lots of facts and figures out there especially given that "4 bore" allows for a lot of interpretation - I have seen .935 to 1.052. I know bore size is 1.015 and rifling is 1:144. 32" long - 1-3/4 to 1-1/2 octagon tapered.

thx for any words of wisdom here!

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DarylS
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Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: billeastern]
      #119907 - 01/12/08 04:38 AM

Sounds like a nice barrel. If you have calipers - dial of not, a good measurement can be obtained on a bore that size.

A 5 bore sized ball should weigh 1,400gr. in pure lead. I assume from past writings, that around 1,400gr. to 1,500gr. was the size most used.

As the great 4's were used mostly at spitting distances, they wanted a ball that required little or no resistance to seat on the powder. We know this doesn't produce good accuracy, but at very close range, speed of loading was more important than accuracy. A lightly patched smoothbore will shoot right along with rifles to about 25 or 30 yards and produce 1 hole groups - good enough for the huge beasts od chase.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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billeastern
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Reged: 28/11/08
Posts: 56
Loc: New York
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: DarylS]
      #119909 - 01/12/08 04:54 AM

Thanks Daryl. Following your advice a .995 to 1" RB in pure lead should weigh 1480 - 1505 grains based on the calculator on beartooth, which would actually seem to put it on the higher side of the range based on what I have read. Seems like even though a lot of writers/hunters of old used "4 ounce bullets" when you dig a little deeper you find out they range from 1250 to 1500 grains most of the time, especially in cartridge guns. I have been doing as much research as I can on these things for about 6 months now and most "4 bores" seem to have been shooting .935 to .955 balls, with very few 1" and over.

Interesting stuff. I sure wish I could round this out with a cartridge gun like omni bob's... but a bit out of my league price-wise. A double 4 bore greener smoothbore for 1500 grain round balls and 20" barrels sure would be a handy rifle for whitetail... :-).

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szihn
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Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: billeastern]
      #119916 - 01/12/08 07:55 AM

Wow Bill, You just educated me. I had no idea Bill Moodie made 4 bores.
But bill is a superb maker and he understands barrel making science as well or better then most other makers. I would assume you have one that is "Forsyth rifled" so I would say to use a ball that's about .0202 to .025 under bore with a .010 to .012 patch. Some of the very large guns can benefit from a felt wad too. But I would just use a patched ball to start out.
Who is making the rifle for you?
Steve

Edited by szihn (01/12/08 08:01 AM)

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billeastern
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Reged: 28/11/08
Posts: 56
Loc: New York
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: szihn]
      #119919 - 01/12/08 08:46 AM

Thanks for all the help. Steve, just shot you a PM with all the details and of course a few q's...

Thx again!

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: DarylS]
      #119981 - 02/12/08 12:43 AM

Sorry about the miss information above.
A 4 Bore bullet weighs 2000 grains.
[image][/image]

4 Bore,700 Nitro,577 Nitro,375 H&H

Big bloody difference between these 4.
Al

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

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billeastern
.275 member


Reged: 28/11/08
Posts: 56
Loc: New York
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #119995 - 02/12/08 02:08 AM

Alan, no worries. I figured you were talking bullet.

thx~!

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billeastern
.275 member


Reged: 28/11/08
Posts: 56
Loc: New York
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: billeastern]
      #119998 - 02/12/08 02:59 AM

"Thanks for all the help guys. Steve after seeing all your posts I though of pming you directly but did not want to appear pushy. Barrel made by Bill Moody. Already made."

RETRACTION - Bill Moody did NOT make barrel. I misunderstood what my builder told me. Apparently Bill retired and the barrel was made in the forsyth style Bill was using. Will get his name and post here. Sorry for misinfo.

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27017
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Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: billeastern]
      #120003 - 02/12/08 04:08 AM

Steve - I am surprised you recommended such a thin patch with a small ball - perhaps a typo on sizes. A .012" patch will only bring the .025"-under ball to .0005" under bore size, per size, .001" total smaller than the bore - with no compression at all to the lands - what abotu the grooves? - the gas cutting from flame and gasses blowing down all the grooves about this combination will incinerate the patch. The patched ball combination must reach the bottom of the grooves or very nearly so. All the barrels I've ever shot ahve required ball-patch combinations to be .004" or more OVER groove diameter creating compression in the bottom of the grooves. This prevents any gas blowby and ensures clean shooting without fouling buildup.

So- if the ball is .022" under bore size and the bore size(not grooves) is 1.015", the ball would be .990" in diameter. If the grooves are .012" deep, the groove depth is 1.015 + .024" = 1.039". A .99" ball would require 1.039 - .99 = .049". .049" divided by 2 = the patch required to reach the bottom of the grooves which would be .0245". 12 pound denim should work OK. This will run around .023" to .025" in thickness.
The muzzle should be crowned like Steve's build of the single 2 bore rifle of Bigdog's gun. I would further smooth the angle of the grooves and tops of the lands with emery cloth on a tool or my fingers, rotation the barrel. It's a nice crown for loading snug combinations - snug combinations shoot cleanly, no buildup of fouling and no wiping while shooting needed.

Mink-oil as sold by Track, or SPG bullet lube mized with neetsfoot oil. Both of these work well. The SPG mix probably better of the two. SPG is a bullet lube for BP ctg. bullets. Mixerd with neetsfoot oil, it makes a good patch lube grease. Try 50/50.

Good shooting.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Yogi000
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Reged: 02/03/06
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Loc: New York, USA
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: DarylS]
      #120013 - 02/12/08 05:25 AM

A 4 bore lead ROUND ball weighs about 1500 grains, yes. I shoot a 4 bore blunderbuss and my bore is 1.050" in diameter and the round ball I use is 1.025. The round ballsI use weigh in at just about 1500 grains.

Mine is a 25 yard or closer gun so what works for my situation is not really relevant to yours.

However I would say a .015 patch using a ball .02 to .025 smaller than your bore would work well. Or a .02 patch and you could use a round ball that is smaller than your bore by .04 I would think. I find that a patch that has lube on it swells some more and gives a tighter fit than just looking at the numbers.

And yes I would use an over powder wad, I would use 1/8"+ thick cork wad, perhaps thicker to help absorb some of that recoil.

What distances do you intend to shoot this 4 bore rifle at?

Those extra long 32 inch barrels and all the heavy hardware should make this a 14 to 16 pound gun I would guess.

Those 4 bore cartridge pictures are truly awesome. I may have to get me a 4 bore cartridge gun some day.

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billeastern
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Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: Yogi000]
      #120016 - 02/12/08 06:20 AM

Thanks Yogi. Seems like based on what everyone is saying I won't go too far wrong with a ball .990 to 1.00 and a patch around .015 to .025 or so...give or take .005 either way. You guys have certainly helped me narrow it down a bunch! Thanks. I saw your blunderbuss - very cool!

This gun will be a 30 - 50 yard proposition for me tops and according to my smith should weigh 18+ pounds when done. I have been in contact with a guy who has one in Texas very similar to mine with a 32" barrel and 1:144 rifling and he is getting some amazing velocity out of it. His shoots .975 1380 grain balls (his bore is smaller) and he is getting over 1525 fps out of his... I find that amazing! Probably kicks hard. He said he is at 440 grains powder though...

Would love a 4 bore cartridge gun as well... Read "17 Trips through Somaliland" by Swayne for some good 4 bore stories...

Thx again

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billeastern
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Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: billeastern]
      #120036 - 02/12/08 12:34 PM

Ok guys - more info. Barrel Oregon Barrel, bore size 1.016, groove diameter 0.209, groove depth .009. Using Daryl's formula with this new info seems I could do:

.990 ball with . 020 - .025 patch
.995 ball with . 015 - .020 patch
1.00 ball with .010 - .015 patch

Guys am I safe to assume I would be ok with any of these choices give or take .005 on the patch?

Thx again!

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Yogi000
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Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: billeastern]
      #120090 - 03/12/08 01:14 AM

18 pound gun?! 440 grains of black powder! wow.

So do you plan to hunt with this gun, as well?

I like the neats foot recommendation. I have to make my own lubed patches for my big ole 1.025" lead round balls and haven't like what I have tried, but neats foot seems like a winner. Thanks Daryl.

I let Daryl and others answer your last question, bill.

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billeastern
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Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: Yogi000]
      #120094 - 03/12/08 01:40 AM

18 pound + probably. Maybe 19. From what I am told you need that weight to offset recoil to some degree plus I had mine built with longer than average barrel. I will probably stick to a max of 14 drams (385 grains) if I can shoot that. Just no need for more... I only hunt deer so probably not but would love to go boar hunting with one. I can't think of a more potent boar gun... Yogi, where you at in NY

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Yogi000
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Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: billeastern]
      #120095 - 03/12/08 01:54 AM

I'm in the Finger Lakes area. Beautiful here and the deer hunting is quite good.

385 grains is a wale of a charge under a quarter pound lead ball. Are you talking Fg or FFg? That would decimate a deer or boar in the US, I suspect. Unless you hit a monster boar which I know exist in some places.

I only have FFg or finer. And you will be using real Black Powder, right?

Once I determine how accurate and after I chrono the loads in my blunderbuss that will dictate what I hunt with this thing. Right now bow or 54 cal flintlock are my weapons of choice to hunt deer on my land here in Western NY. But when Turkey roles around again I will certainly add the Blunderbuss to the roster.

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DarylS
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Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: Yogi000]
      #120124 - 03/12/08 06:43 AM

Bill - the best way to determine if the ball and patch will work, is to take a strip of cloth, lube it in the middle - then seat the ball flush with the top surface of the muzzle, then pull it out using the ends of the strip. Check the ball (pure lead) for land marks all the way around. The bottom of the grooves should also mark the patch, but faintly with a load that will work, and hard for a load that will probably give the best accuracy.

For a 1.016 bore size, I'd go with a 1.00" ball. Your rifling, being .009 deep per side means a groove diameter of 1.016 + .018" = 1.034" groove to groove. A 1.00" ball would require a patch of 1.034" - 1.00 = .034" divided by 2 = a .017" patch to reach the bottom of those beautifully shallow grooves. You may find a ..015 through .020" denim to work the best. This would be 8 and 10 pound denim as sold in cloth stores. I wash it twice to remove the sizing and it sometimes gains a thou, sometimes loses a thou. in thickness. I prefer the thicker patches as they hold more lube. You could easily get by with a slightly smaller ball in the .995" range, increasing patch thickness as you go.

You guys have me all wound up over another BIG bore. Guys over on the americanlongrifles forum have me wanting a small bore - maybe .28" to .30" cal. for a walk-around gun for gopehrs. I'm tired of the .22 for walking around. I guess a 4 bore would kill a gopher - if you jit him right.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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billeastern
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Reged: 28/11/08
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Loc: New York
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: DarylS]
      #120126 - 03/12/08 07:04 AM

Thx again for all the advice. The big bore bite is a tough one to get out of your system. If I did another one I would do a 10 bore. I don't know why but there is something very cool about a 10 shooting hardened sphereical's...

The only other toy I am getting for myself in the next few months is a Ruger No. 1 in 450/400... I found one of the Circassan one's for sale pretty cheap NIB.

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billeastern
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Reged: 28/11/08
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Loc: New York
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: billeastern]
      #120127 - 03/12/08 07:10 AM

Yogi:

I am hearing FG and FFG from people so not sure. The guy in texas shoots FFG - real black. 385 of that behind a 1500 grain ball should be a real boar killer or killer of anything else for that matter... Can't wait to hear about that blunderbuss on turkey!

Be well and thx again.

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: billeastern]
      #120253 - 04/12/08 03:33 AM

Bill - you should always use real black powder in a muzzleloader. The phony powders don't work worth jack crap in a flinter & mix the phoney powder's fouling with msoe moisture from the air and you have changed to fouling to an acid. It's your gun. The phoney ones also greatly increase the shot to shot velocity, usually producing poorer accuracy.

All of my advice on loading and shooting has been for black powder only - not the subs.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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billeastern
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Reged: 28/11/08
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Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: DarylS]
      #120268 - 04/12/08 05:00 AM

Thanks again Daryl for the very sound advice!

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