Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact
NitroExpress.com: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initially

View recent messages : 24 hours | 48 hours | 7 days | 14 days | 30 days | 60 days | More Smilies


*** Enjoy NitroExpress.com? Participate and join in. ***

Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns

Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | >> (show all)
billeastern
.275 member


Reged: 28/11/08
Posts: 56
Loc: New York
4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initially
      #119717 - 29/11/08 07:43 AM

Hello Gents:

Sorry for the double post - based on what I have seen should have posted initially here. Copied and pasted initial post below... Thanks.


"Happy Thanksgiving! I am new to this forum and to muzzleloading but first off let me thank everyone here for the tremendous wealth of information you all provide. I have been pouring through these forums for some time now while contemplating a project and the knowledge base here is amazing. Having said that I will approach this as all new guys do - with some questions, which I hope you might be able to help me with. I have been shooting for almost 20 years now - everything from 22LR to 500 Nitro. Always CF. About a year ago I got bitten with the ML blackpowder ball gun bug and began reading through all the old books by Finaughty, Selous, Baker, Sanderson, etc. which as you all probably know only makes the bug bite harder. So about a month ago I engaged a well known shop to build me a 4 bore ML. The dimensions are as follows:

Bore mics at approx 1.015
32" barrel 1-3/4 - 1-1/2 taper octagon
Rifled for fast ball shooting 1:144 twist
Percussion RH
Classic Manton Stock

Those are the specs and since I am having the gun built for me figured it would be fun to do some research on my own about balls, bullets, powder, etc. Guess I just enjoy educating myself before I go into something. So here goes:

1. Was planning on shooting patched round balls - what size ball/patch combo would you recommend for that bore size? What would the ball probably weigh?
2. Would you recommend a wad or nitro card with this gun?
3. What powder charge do you recommend? Seems from what I have read 12 to 16 drams ffg would be appropriate and hard hitting on both ends :-). Any particular brand you would recommend?
4. Finally, I really wanted to shoot balls with the gun, hence the rifling but on the off chance I ever wanted to shoot a conical would that be possible with this barrel? Any reco re: conical size, diameter, etc? I believe I would need to know the groove depth to figure this one out. Saw some interesting very short moulds on NEI site that are almost square and thought might work if pushed fast enough.

I realize this is a bunch of q's and I will also ask my smith when the time comes but I really enjoy educating myself. Apologize for the many amateurish questions and thanks in advance for any advice! If this post would be better suited to "Paradox and Bore Guns" forum please let me know."

Again, have a happy Thanksgiving and thanks for this informative forum.

Best,

Bill


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26612
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initially [Re: billeastern]
      #119769 - 29/11/08 06:26 PM

While I've never loaded for a 4 bore, my standard rule is for a ball no more than .005" under bore size. This is for balls up to about 14 bore in size. Over that, if using a tight (thich) patch, one can go as much as .015" under bore size. for the monstrous 4 bore, one might even expand that to .020" - depending on groove depth. That means you should use a ball not less than .995" in diameter. i would go with an even inch and a .025" to .030" denim patch.

Measure the groove diameter to find the depth of rifling. Subtract the ball's diameter from the groove diameter, 1/2 the product and that is the THINNEST patch would can use with a pure lead ball. If the rifling is only .010" or so, ie: shallow, you can get by with a ball cast of straight WW metal - cheap for the asking at any tire changing gas station - usually.

If you meant the groove (not the bore) diameter was 1.015", that puts the actual bore somewhat tighter & the ball will have to be somewhat smaller than mentioned above - by .005" to .020" les than actual bore size. You must know both dimensions to make an educated guess at what to get for mould and patch thickness.

Again, make the ball from .005" to .020" smaller than the actual bore (tops of the lands) and go with 12 to 14 pound denim for the patch.(.023" to .030"). The patch must have some thickness to it, to obsorb enough lube to keep the fouling soft and allow repeated shots. If this is your first ML rifle, you've a long learning curve ahead. Enjoy.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
billeastern
.275 member


Reged: 28/11/08
Posts: 56
Loc: New York
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: DarylS]
      #119790 - 30/11/08 01:05 AM

Thanks Daryl. Appreciate the advice. I asked my smith for the bore size so assume he gave me the bore measurement but will double check. Feel that learning curve creeping up on me but hey that is what makes it fun! Thx again. Assuming a .995 - 1" ball would be about 1500 grains.?.?

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
ALAN_MCKENZIE
.400 member


Reged: 24/03/04
Posts: 1214
Loc: Western Australia
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: billeastern]
      #119885 - 01/12/08 12:28 AM

You might find that it will be around 2000 gns.
Al

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
szihn
.400 member


Reged: 24/06/07
Posts: 2117
Loc: Wind River Valley, Wyoming
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #119896 - 01/12/08 02:59 AM

Who made the barrel? They are the ones to ask for measurements and rifling geometry. I only know 3 placed to get 4 bore barrels as of now. Ed Rayl, Ken Owen and Oregon Barrel. All have their 'standard" way of cutting them, but all will give you anything you ask for if you ask for it.
I assume the barrel is already made? Or am I wrong there?


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
billeastern
.275 member


Reged: 28/11/08
Posts: 56
Loc: New York
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: szihn]
      #119905 - 01/12/08 04:04 AM

Thanks for all the help guys. Steve after seeing all your posts I though of pming you directly but did not want to appear pushy. Barrel made by Bill Moody. Already made. I am just trying to take the opportunity to educate myself while the gun is being made. Lots of facts and figures out there especially given that "4 bore" allows for a lot of interpretation - I have seen .935 to 1.052. I know bore size is 1.015 and rifling is 1:144. 32" long - 1-3/4 to 1-1/2 octagon tapered.

thx for any words of wisdom here!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26612
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: billeastern]
      #119907 - 01/12/08 04:38 AM

Sounds like a nice barrel. If you have calipers - dial of not, a good measurement can be obtained on a bore that size.

A 5 bore sized ball should weigh 1,400gr. in pure lead. I assume from past writings, that around 1,400gr. to 1,500gr. was the size most used.

As the great 4's were used mostly at spitting distances, they wanted a ball that required little or no resistance to seat on the powder. We know this doesn't produce good accuracy, but at very close range, speed of loading was more important than accuracy. A lightly patched smoothbore will shoot right along with rifles to about 25 or 30 yards and produce 1 hole groups - good enough for the huge beasts od chase.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
billeastern
.275 member


Reged: 28/11/08
Posts: 56
Loc: New York
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: DarylS]
      #119909 - 01/12/08 04:54 AM

Thanks Daryl. Following your advice a .995 to 1" RB in pure lead should weigh 1480 - 1505 grains based on the calculator on beartooth, which would actually seem to put it on the higher side of the range based on what I have read. Seems like even though a lot of writers/hunters of old used "4 ounce bullets" when you dig a little deeper you find out they range from 1250 to 1500 grains most of the time, especially in cartridge guns. I have been doing as much research as I can on these things for about 6 months now and most "4 bores" seem to have been shooting .935 to .955 balls, with very few 1" and over.

Interesting stuff. I sure wish I could round this out with a cartridge gun like omni bob's... but a bit out of my league price-wise. A double 4 bore greener smoothbore for 1500 grain round balls and 20" barrels sure would be a handy rifle for whitetail... :-).


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
szihn
.400 member


Reged: 24/06/07
Posts: 2117
Loc: Wind River Valley, Wyoming
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: billeastern]
      #119916 - 01/12/08 07:55 AM

Wow Bill, You just educated me. I had no idea Bill Moodie made 4 bores.
But bill is a superb maker and he understands barrel making science as well or better then most other makers. I would assume you have one that is "Forsyth rifled" so I would say to use a ball that's about .0202 to .025 under bore with a .010 to .012 patch. Some of the very large guns can benefit from a felt wad too. But I would just use a patched ball to start out.
Who is making the rifle for you?
Steve

Edited by szihn (01/12/08 08:01 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
billeastern
.275 member


Reged: 28/11/08
Posts: 56
Loc: New York
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: szihn]
      #119919 - 01/12/08 08:46 AM

Thanks for all the help. Steve, just shot you a PM with all the details and of course a few q's...

Thx again!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
ALAN_MCKENZIE
.400 member


Reged: 24/03/04
Posts: 1214
Loc: Western Australia
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: DarylS]
      #119981 - 02/12/08 12:43 AM

Sorry about the miss information above.
A 4 Bore bullet weighs 2000 grains.
[image][/image]

4 Bore,700 Nitro,577 Nitro,375 H&H

Big bloody difference between these 4.
Al

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
billeastern
.275 member


Reged: 28/11/08
Posts: 56
Loc: New York
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #119995 - 02/12/08 02:08 AM

Alan, no worries. I figured you were talking bullet.

thx~!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
billeastern
.275 member


Reged: 28/11/08
Posts: 56
Loc: New York
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: billeastern]
      #119998 - 02/12/08 02:59 AM

"Thanks for all the help guys. Steve after seeing all your posts I though of pming you directly but did not want to appear pushy. Barrel made by Bill Moody. Already made."

RETRACTION - Bill Moody did NOT make barrel. I misunderstood what my builder told me. Apparently Bill retired and the barrel was made in the forsyth style Bill was using. Will get his name and post here. Sorry for misinfo.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26612
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: billeastern]
      #120003 - 02/12/08 04:08 AM

Steve - I am surprised you recommended such a thin patch with a small ball - perhaps a typo on sizes. A .012" patch will only bring the .025"-under ball to .0005" under bore size, per size, .001" total smaller than the bore - with no compression at all to the lands - what abotu the grooves? - the gas cutting from flame and gasses blowing down all the grooves about this combination will incinerate the patch. The patched ball combination must reach the bottom of the grooves or very nearly so. All the barrels I've ever shot ahve required ball-patch combinations to be .004" or more OVER groove diameter creating compression in the bottom of the grooves. This prevents any gas blowby and ensures clean shooting without fouling buildup.

So- if the ball is .022" under bore size and the bore size(not grooves) is 1.015", the ball would be .990" in diameter. If the grooves are .012" deep, the groove depth is 1.015 + .024" = 1.039". A .99" ball would require 1.039 - .99 = .049". .049" divided by 2 = the patch required to reach the bottom of the grooves which would be .0245". 12 pound denim should work OK. This will run around .023" to .025" in thickness.
The muzzle should be crowned like Steve's build of the single 2 bore rifle of Bigdog's gun. I would further smooth the angle of the grooves and tops of the lands with emery cloth on a tool or my fingers, rotation the barrel. It's a nice crown for loading snug combinations - snug combinations shoot cleanly, no buildup of fouling and no wiping while shooting needed.

Mink-oil as sold by Track, or SPG bullet lube mized with neetsfoot oil. Both of these work well. The SPG mix probably better of the two. SPG is a bullet lube for BP ctg. bullets. Mixerd with neetsfoot oil, it makes a good patch lube grease. Try 50/50.

Good shooting.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Yogi000
.333 member


Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 265
Loc: New York, USA
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: DarylS]
      #120013 - 02/12/08 05:25 AM

A 4 bore lead ROUND ball weighs about 1500 grains, yes. I shoot a 4 bore blunderbuss and my bore is 1.050" in diameter and the round ball I use is 1.025. The round ballsI use weigh in at just about 1500 grains.

Mine is a 25 yard or closer gun so what works for my situation is not really relevant to yours.

However I would say a .015 patch using a ball .02 to .025 smaller than your bore would work well. Or a .02 patch and you could use a round ball that is smaller than your bore by .04 I would think. I find that a patch that has lube on it swells some more and gives a tighter fit than just looking at the numbers.

And yes I would use an over powder wad, I would use 1/8"+ thick cork wad, perhaps thicker to help absorb some of that recoil.

What distances do you intend to shoot this 4 bore rifle at?

Those extra long 32 inch barrels and all the heavy hardware should make this a 14 to 16 pound gun I would guess.

Those 4 bore cartridge pictures are truly awesome. I may have to get me a 4 bore cartridge gun some day.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
billeastern
.275 member


Reged: 28/11/08
Posts: 56
Loc: New York
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: Yogi000]
      #120016 - 02/12/08 06:20 AM

Thanks Yogi. Seems like based on what everyone is saying I won't go too far wrong with a ball .990 to 1.00 and a patch around .015 to .025 or so...give or take .005 either way. You guys have certainly helped me narrow it down a bunch! Thanks. I saw your blunderbuss - very cool!

This gun will be a 30 - 50 yard proposition for me tops and according to my smith should weigh 18+ pounds when done. I have been in contact with a guy who has one in Texas very similar to mine with a 32" barrel and 1:144 rifling and he is getting some amazing velocity out of it. His shoots .975 1380 grain balls (his bore is smaller) and he is getting over 1525 fps out of his... I find that amazing! Probably kicks hard. He said he is at 440 grains powder though...

Would love a 4 bore cartridge gun as well... Read "17 Trips through Somaliland" by Swayne for some good 4 bore stories...

Thx again


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
billeastern
.275 member


Reged: 28/11/08
Posts: 56
Loc: New York
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: billeastern]
      #120036 - 02/12/08 12:34 PM

Ok guys - more info. Barrel Oregon Barrel, bore size 1.016, groove diameter 0.209, groove depth .009. Using Daryl's formula with this new info seems I could do:

.990 ball with . 020 - .025 patch
.995 ball with . 015 - .020 patch
1.00 ball with .010 - .015 patch

Guys am I safe to assume I would be ok with any of these choices give or take .005 on the patch?

Thx again!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Yogi000
.333 member


Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 265
Loc: New York, USA
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: billeastern]
      #120090 - 03/12/08 01:14 AM

18 pound gun?! 440 grains of black powder! wow.

So do you plan to hunt with this gun, as well?

I like the neats foot recommendation. I have to make my own lubed patches for my big ole 1.025" lead round balls and haven't like what I have tried, but neats foot seems like a winner. Thanks Daryl.

I let Daryl and others answer your last question, bill.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
billeastern
.275 member


Reged: 28/11/08
Posts: 56
Loc: New York
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: Yogi000]
      #120094 - 03/12/08 01:40 AM

18 pound + probably. Maybe 19. From what I am told you need that weight to offset recoil to some degree plus I had mine built with longer than average barrel. I will probably stick to a max of 14 drams (385 grains) if I can shoot that. Just no need for more... I only hunt deer so probably not but would love to go boar hunting with one. I can't think of a more potent boar gun... Yogi, where you at in NY

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Yogi000
.333 member


Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 265
Loc: New York, USA
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: billeastern]
      #120095 - 03/12/08 01:54 AM

I'm in the Finger Lakes area. Beautiful here and the deer hunting is quite good.

385 grains is a wale of a charge under a quarter pound lead ball. Are you talking Fg or FFg? That would decimate a deer or boar in the US, I suspect. Unless you hit a monster boar which I know exist in some places.

I only have FFg or finer. And you will be using real Black Powder, right?

Once I determine how accurate and after I chrono the loads in my blunderbuss that will dictate what I hunt with this thing. Right now bow or 54 cal flintlock are my weapons of choice to hunt deer on my land here in Western NY. But when Turkey roles around again I will certainly add the Blunderbuss to the roster.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26612
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: Yogi000]
      #120124 - 03/12/08 06:43 AM

Bill - the best way to determine if the ball and patch will work, is to take a strip of cloth, lube it in the middle - then seat the ball flush with the top surface of the muzzle, then pull it out using the ends of the strip. Check the ball (pure lead) for land marks all the way around. The bottom of the grooves should also mark the patch, but faintly with a load that will work, and hard for a load that will probably give the best accuracy.

For a 1.016 bore size, I'd go with a 1.00" ball. Your rifling, being .009 deep per side means a groove diameter of 1.016 + .018" = 1.034" groove to groove. A 1.00" ball would require a patch of 1.034" - 1.00 = .034" divided by 2 = a .017" patch to reach the bottom of those beautifully shallow grooves. You may find a ..015 through .020" denim to work the best. This would be 8 and 10 pound denim as sold in cloth stores. I wash it twice to remove the sizing and it sometimes gains a thou, sometimes loses a thou. in thickness. I prefer the thicker patches as they hold more lube. You could easily get by with a slightly smaller ball in the .995" range, increasing patch thickness as you go.

You guys have me all wound up over another BIG bore. Guys over on the americanlongrifles forum have me wanting a small bore - maybe .28" to .30" cal. for a walk-around gun for gopehrs. I'm tired of the .22 for walking around. I guess a 4 bore would kill a gopher - if you jit him right.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
billeastern
.275 member


Reged: 28/11/08
Posts: 56
Loc: New York
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: DarylS]
      #120126 - 03/12/08 07:04 AM

Thx again for all the advice. The big bore bite is a tough one to get out of your system. If I did another one I would do a 10 bore. I don't know why but there is something very cool about a 10 shooting hardened sphereical's...

The only other toy I am getting for myself in the next few months is a Ruger No. 1 in 450/400... I found one of the Circassan one's for sale pretty cheap NIB.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
billeastern
.275 member


Reged: 28/11/08
Posts: 56
Loc: New York
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: billeastern]
      #120127 - 03/12/08 07:10 AM

Yogi:

I am hearing FG and FFG from people so not sure. The guy in texas shoots FFG - real black. 385 of that behind a 1500 grain ball should be a real boar killer or killer of anything else for that matter... Can't wait to hear about that blunderbuss on turkey!

Be well and thx again.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26612
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: billeastern]
      #120253 - 04/12/08 03:33 AM

Bill - you should always use real black powder in a muzzleloader. The phony powders don't work worth jack crap in a flinter & mix the phoney powder's fouling with msoe moisture from the air and you have changed to fouling to an acid. It's your gun. The phoney ones also greatly increase the shot to shot velocity, usually producing poorer accuracy.

All of my advice on loading and shooting has been for black powder only - not the subs.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
billeastern
.275 member


Reged: 28/11/08
Posts: 56
Loc: New York
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: DarylS]
      #120268 - 04/12/08 05:00 AM

Thanks again Daryl for the very sound advice!

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Yogi000
.333 member


Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 265
Loc: New York, USA
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: billeastern]
      #120274 - 04/12/08 05:53 AM

395 grains of black is about twice what I have tried beneath a quarter pound 4 bore ball. I would say that thing will have a definite kick.

Yes the big bore 'addiction' is both contagious and veral. 10 gauge and bigger. For me a gun I can carry is part of the requirement, though. The monster guns that you need a stand to shoot them from has no appeal to me. (Punts, etc)

Now that I have my four bore blunderbuss, I am looking at a 10 gauge (or even 8) double barrel that shoots modern shells.

Yes a 4 bore double (cartridge) is hopefully in my future. If I can get my company to start spinning off real money then I will start looking, until then it is a 10 (or 8) gauge double that I can pick up cheap and start fiddling with to shoot slugs using express sights, etc.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
bigdog
.375 member


Reged: 05/02/06
Posts: 559
Loc: Southern Illinois
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: Yogi000]
      #120293 - 04/12/08 11:10 AM

Certainly nothing wrong with an 8 gauge double! or a 10 for that matter.

--------------------
Kyle, I love you buddy, Dad


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Omnivorous_Bob
.333 member


Reged: 03/10/05
Posts: 285
Loc: Montana
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: bigdog]
      #120311 - 04/12/08 03:48 PM

Here is a link to a video (and a quite nice website, I'll add) of a friend of mine, Cal Pappas, shooting my 16.5lb 4 with a 2000 grain conical and 383 grains (14 drams) of Goex FFg. Cal is a very experienced double and big-bore shooter and African hunter, who shoots regularly with vintage 600N, 7-bore, and 8-bore doubles. He took a nice buff in Zim with his 600N this fall and will issue what will probably be the definitive 600N history book in the next few months. He's not a small guy either, but even he still needs to take a step back and the barrel goes to 45 degrees. Not for the faint of heart!

Cal Pappas

I can attest to the fact that once you get to more than 10 drams@16.5lbs, it leaves a bruise every time, even with a shoulder pad, and my gun has a rubber pad too. My head often slips back out of my earmuffs with full power loads, which is one more reason they are few and far between. 10 drams loads and even more so their smokeless equivilents are fun all day long.

Having said all of that, my favorite rifle is my pedestrian, refinished(not well) Tolley 10-bore blued-damascus(!!!) 5-dram gun. The price was right, it shoots well, and is the most fun-per-shot gun I own. I don't think you'll go wrong with a 10 or 8 double.

Bob

--------------------
"If we're not supposed to eat animals, how come they're made out of meat?"


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
billeastern
.275 member


Reged: 28/11/08
Posts: 56
Loc: New York
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: Omnivorous_Bob]
      #120346 - 05/12/08 03:09 AM

Bob Your gun is really a beauty. Unfortuneatly video does not play on either of my machines but saw your photos of the gun in full recoil... it is a monster! I don't think mine will kick quite as hard being heavier by almost 2 pounds and shooting a 1500 grain ball but it is going to be fun to find out! Have you had good luck with ffg powder size. Is Goex a type you recommend?

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Yogi000
.333 member


Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 265
Loc: New York, USA
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: billeastern]
      #120348 - 05/12/08 03:26 AM

Nice link and photos. Makes the big bore addiction itch a bit worse.

On that 10 bore double: how much does it weigh?

My 12 gauge double barrel slug gun is just about 8 pounds and it had a heck of a kick until I put a top of line Pachmayr on it and a mechanical recoil reducer in her. Now even with the hot slug loads I get a very stern but not star making whack.

A short barreled double barrel 10 would be a great addition to my double gun collection.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Omnivorous_Bob
.333 member


Reged: 03/10/05
Posts: 285
Loc: Montana
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: Yogi000]
      #120402 - 05/12/08 06:35 PM

Bill, I use Goex in mine because it is just about the only thing I can get here. FFg seems to burn cleaner for me and gives about 100fps more than Fg for the same charge with a 2000gn conical. I haven't chronoed enough round balls to check the difference with then, just found a good load and stuck to it.

Yogi my 10 weighs a bit over 11lb (I've got the exact weight written down somewhere here) and has shallow 7 groove metford rifle for round balls. It shoots 700gn (1 5/8 ounce) balls at about 1300fps. There are 12 gauge slug loads hotter than that, so recoil is there but not heavy at all.

As to Cal's website, I LOVE all of those big bore pictures too, it gets my pulse going!

Bob

--------------------
"If we're not supposed to eat animals, how come they're made out of meat?"


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
billeastern
.275 member


Reged: 28/11/08
Posts: 56
Loc: New York
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: Omnivorous_Bob]
      #120419 - 06/12/08 02:18 AM

Thanks Bob. I am going to start out with ffg and see how it goes. I would also like to try conicals but don't think my 1:144 rifling would stabilize them and I had my heart set on mostly shooting round balls fast hence the rifling. Maybe I will try to locate a few just to see how they shoot in the gun.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Yogi000
.333 member


Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 265
Loc: New York, USA
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: billeastern]
      #120441 - 06/12/08 04:15 AM

Bill--- I have a 1.00" round ball mould coming to me from Jeff Tanner. He mailed it to me on NOV 8 but unfortunately his wife sent it to my OLD address, the same one when I ordered a .724" round ball mould from him 2 years ago. I hope the post office re-routes to me in my new location.

I see you are in NY too. I would be glad to share the mould with you so you can try 1.00" out in your gun. It would save you at least $80 bucks in mould charge. Also, I have some 1.025 Round Balls that Bob sent me all made up but they would be too big for your application.

Bill, I think your round ball shoting with the heavy powder charges you are talking about will be MORE than adequate for any application you are looking to get yourself into. The heavy conicals would most likely be the proverbial OVERkill.

I will let you know when adn IF the 1.00" round ball mould arrives. Jeff wrote me and said if the first mouold does not arrive soon he will REsend another. So one way or another i will have a 1.00" round ball mould to work with and share.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26612
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: Yogi000]
      #120449 - 06/12/08 05:59 AM

Quote:

by Yogi000 - Bill, I think your round ball shoting with the heavy powder charges you are talking about will be MORE than adequate for any application you are looking to get yourself into. The heavy conicals would most likely be the proverbial OVERkill.






: Here's another quote by S. Baker writing in "The Field" 'paper' of March 23rd. 1861 concerning conicals:
: I strongly volte against conical balls for dangerous game; they make too neat a wound, and are very apt to glance on striking a bone. The larger the surface struck the greater will be the benumbing effect of the blow.....In giving an opinion against conical balls for dangerous game, I do so from practical proofs of their inferiority. I had at one time a two-groove single rifle, weighing 21 lbs., carrying a 3 oz. belted ball, with a charge of 12 drachms (drams) powder. This was kind of a "devil stopper," and never failed in flooring a charging elephant, although, if not struck in the brain, he might recover his legs. I had a conical mould make for this rifle, the ball of which weighed 4 oz., but instead of rendering it more invincible, it entirely destroyed its efficacy,(sic - efficiency), and brought me into such scrapes that I at length gave up the conical ball as useless."

Major Shakespear, the author of "Wild Sports in India" says: "I have Minnie bullet-moulds for my rifles; but so long as the spherical bullets go through and through large gme, I do now see the use of running the risk or shaking 9breaking) the stock of the gun, and of extra recoil, by using the heavier balls(minnies)."

Note in this day - and later, generally all projectiles were called 'balls'. There were of course, "spherical balls", ie: round balls and "conical balls" ie: any form of elongated bullet.

Even Greener, who was the strongest supporter of the expansive bullets for military use (minies), wrote in "Gunnery" in 1858 page 404 : "For other purposes other than war, rifles will continue to be constructed on the polygroove (mulitiple groove) principle, and with spherical bullets" He carries on to explain about "The perfect destruction of various animals is dependent generally on two causes---the penetration into the body, and the shock to the system during that act of penetration." No doubt exists that a spherical bullet would combine these two qualities best."
Here, W.Greener, instead of calling all projeciles 'balls' preferred to call them all bullets. Interesting departure to the norm of the day.

So there we have it - in the very large bores, conicals reduced killing power. Their extra penetrative power was not needed as round balls penetrated just fine. The conical's reduction in speed and conical shape reduced the shock to the animal as well as being likely to glance on contact with bone. The "minnie ball caused 'neat wounds' glanced on bones and travelled through the soft parts of the body while spherical balls smashed the bones asunder and caused most grievious wounds" - Surgeon General - Grimean war - coment on expamining wounds of soliders.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
billeastern
.275 member


Reged: 28/11/08
Posts: 56
Loc: New York
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: Yogi000]
      #120451 - 06/12/08 06:05 AM

Thanks for that Yogi - really appreciate it! You are really a great bunch of guys. The help I have received here is amazing and I am new on the block. Very much appreciated!

Yogi my gun is about 6 months out and my builder thinks he may have a mould he can proof through the gun first so I will definitely let you know. Thanks again!

Oh and I was not too concerned about the power level ;-) 1500 grains at 1450 fps should be enough for anything shy of a dinosaur - just think it is fun to tinker around. Funny thing is (and I know ballistics science would tend to disprove this) but many of the old big time hunters liked hardened round balls better then conicals for tuskers. Not saying it is true but is an interesting argument I don't ever intend on proving or disproving.

Thx again!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
billeastern
.275 member


Reged: 28/11/08
Posts: 56
Loc: New York
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: DarylS]
      #120452 - 06/12/08 06:17 AM

Daryl - super informative as always. It also seems many of the hunters who used 4 bore cartridge guns used balls as well - GP Sanderson, CEM Russel, etc. used the Kynoch load with spherical ball on top of 12 to 14 drams. If you read their books you won't hear lack of power mentioned often. I believe Sanderson also advocated the use of the spherical ball over conical and he was talking from experience and a lot of it. Not an arm chair safari guy like me...

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Yogi000
.333 member


Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 265
Loc: New York, USA
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: billeastern]
      #120456 - 06/12/08 06:49 AM

"Bill the dinosaur hunter"... That is what your friends might start calling you when you commence throwing those 14 dram charges under a quarter pound round ball around. You and Bob will be equipped to take on T-Rex. I raise my hand to play back up man with my 4 bore Blunderbuss. Once he charges he's mine! If I don't knock him down flat I promise to blind him with smoke! hahaha

Yes reading the prior age hunter's detailed books on high dram hunting with round ball is impressive for sure. And, we, ie some of us here, have rediscovered the awesome effectiveness of the round ball for hunting and stopping dangerous game.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
billeastern
.275 member


Reged: 28/11/08
Posts: 56
Loc: New York
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: Yogi000]
      #120457 - 06/12/08 07:02 AM

Too funny. That would be a good team. Jurassic Park 4 - "3 nutcases with 20 lb rifles..." We might have a shot

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Yogi000
.333 member


Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 265
Loc: New York, USA
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: billeastern]
      #120462 - 06/12/08 08:03 AM

Or--- THREE NUT CASES WITH QUARTER POUND BALLS!

WILL TRAVEL...


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
billeastern
.275 member


Reged: 28/11/08
Posts: 56
Loc: New York
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: Yogi000]
      #120463 - 06/12/08 08:08 AM

Even better!

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
bigdog
.375 member


Reged: 05/02/06
Posts: 559
Loc: Southern Illinois
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: billeastern]
      #120467 - 06/12/08 09:36 AM

Jurassic Park---where where, count me in. I have a 4 bore for each arm. Like Doc Holiday says in Toumbstone, if I'm drunk and seeing double, I have one for each of you.

--------------------
Kyle, I love you buddy, Dad


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
billeastern
.275 member


Reged: 28/11/08
Posts: 56
Loc: New York
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: bigdog]
      #120474 - 06/12/08 12:55 PM

bigdog you could take out the whole park with your arsenal. I must say I have never seen someone with a more impressive collection of really big bores. Out of your whole collection I would take that Owen's 4 bore double with the short barrels. A four bore double is the most extreme hunting firearm of all time. If you ever want to adopt a grown man in his 30's I am available to talk. I can cook too... :-)

I love the picture of it next to the 700 double. It makes it look like it is a 375 flanged or something.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26612
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: billeastern]
      #120477 - 06/12/08 01:03 PM

Incidently, Francis Seylous once said he'd wished he'd never touched a 4 bore. He stated they ruined his close shooting for the rest of his life. Too bad he was short lived - killed in East Africa during the war - second, I believe. He used Dutch 4 bore smoothbore shotguns for his elephant hunting in very close quarters.

He once shot a bull elephant (or was that John Taylor) with a .600 nitro - rifle doubled and put him backwards on his butt. The elephant fell sideways - only one to ever fall to the off side of the ball or bullet impact. John Taylor, A think. Oh well, only a little .600 nitro, we're talking about big guns.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Omnivorous_Bob
.333 member


Reged: 03/10/05
Posts: 285
Loc: Montana
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: DarylS]
      #120482 - 06/12/08 06:33 PM

Code:
 Or--- THREE NUT CASES WITH QUARTER POUND BALLS!



BDog definitely makes 4! I love it.

Selous got killed by a sniper in Africa near the end of WWI. If I remember correctly, he was mid-60s! You have to be a tough SOB to be fighting at that age, but I couldn't think of a better man for the job. He accompanied Roosevelt on his year long safari after he left the presidency. Still a shame though.

Bob

--------------------
"If we're not supposed to eat animals, how come they're made out of meat?"


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
bigdog
.375 member


Reged: 05/02/06
Posts: 559
Loc: Southern Illinois
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: Omnivorous_Bob]
      #120483 - 06/12/08 07:05 PM

Billeastern,

Thanks, I really like the big stuff. I have traded a lot of the guns that I amassed over the last 28 years to get the bigger stuff. I think Safari Kid has 1/2 of my original collection of "regular guns". The double fours are heavy and cumbersome, but they shoot well. The coolness factor is definatly up there. I too was surprised at how small the 700 nitro looks when put next to the 4 bore. The 700 aint no little feller in itself. Still raising 4 kids of my own, so we will have to wait on the adoption for a little while!

--------------------
Kyle, I love you buddy, Dad


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
rigbymauser
.400 member


Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 1971
Loc: Denmark
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: Omnivorous_Bob]
      #120493 - 06/12/08 10:53 PM

Quote:

I can attest to the fact that once you get to more than 10 [Email]drams@16.5lbs[/Email], it leaves a bruise every time. Bob




Oh yes it does...10 drams and a 900 grain leadbullet on top in a 14 Ibs gun.....KA-BOOOM ...but what a fun...


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
billeastern
.275 member


Reged: 28/11/08
Posts: 56
Loc: New York
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: bigdog]
      #120502 - 07/12/08 12:23 AM

Bigdog:

I have gone through much of the same. Many trades for new toys. I must say this is my first venture into an ultra large bore. I smirk at the thought of what the boys down at the range will think. My buddy brought his 500 nitro double down one day and those fellas thought we were shooting a damn cannon. Wait til they get a look at this thing, especially with all the smoke and noise. You should really be more open minded about the adoption. I come with additional guns and an income;-).

I am off to do some shooting with this great old mauser I just uncovered. Have a great day or night guys depending on where you are.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
bigdog
.375 member


Reged: 05/02/06
Posts: 559
Loc: Southern Illinois
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: billeastern]
      #120524 - 07/12/08 09:16 AM

Now you'er talkin, anyway to get a little more disposable income for guns and bullets!

--------------------
Kyle, I love you buddy, Dad


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Yogi000
.333 member


Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 265
Loc: New York, USA
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: billeastern]
      #120685 - 09/12/08 06:22 AM

I second Daryl's "emotion": Real Black Powder is the way to go. I started with that modern replacement stuff and just had too many bad ignitions. Plus when I finally succombed and graduated to real Black Powder I was smiling for a week!

Plus and I cannot explain why, but it seemed my accuracy and consistency improved. I prefer the fet recoil too. And I think the cleanup is actually easier.

On all counts real Black Powder is superlative to the replacement stuff.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
billeastern
.275 member


Reged: 28/11/08
Posts: 56
Loc: New York
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: Yogi000]
      #120692 - 09/12/08 07:59 AM

Any brands you recommend? Looks like I will be using ffg for size. Thx

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Yogi000
.333 member


Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 265
Loc: New York, USA
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: billeastern]
      #120701 - 09/12/08 11:44 AM

Goex. Just do a google search for4 GOEX black powder and you can find sources who sell it online. getting it locally at shops in NY is about hopeless. I buy 25 pounds at a time. Yet I am going through it at a rapid pace.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
billeastern
.275 member


Reged: 28/11/08
Posts: 56
Loc: New York
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: Yogi000]
      #120707 - 09/12/08 12:43 PM

Thanks Yogi. Found it. A couple of guys down at my range use Swiss as well so I will try a bit of both and see what generates best results. Thx

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26612
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: billeastern]
      #120733 - 09/12/08 04:57 PM

bill- Swiss is considerably more expensive, but you get what you paid for, in terms of an almost duplicate in speed and pressure to original loads. GOEX runs about 20% behind Swiss - that is, it takes about 20% more GOEX to match the ballistics of Swiss.
: In the cannon you're having build, I'd just use GOEX. To me, Swiss is for regulating a favourite BP double express rifle or for competition with BP Ctg. guns, not for making smoke. I seem to be able to hit the winner's circle often enough using GOEX in my flinter so don't feel comprimized using the cheaper 'stuff'. For use in my Sharps though, I'd sure like to glean a few pounds of Swiss.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
billeastern
.275 member


Reged: 28/11/08
Posts: 56
Loc: New York
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: DarylS]
      #120763 - 10/12/08 02:50 AM

Sounds good, thx guys. Yeah checked some prices last night and swiss is costly! Especially at 200 - 400 grains per shot not that i will be shooting many ;-).

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Yogi000
.333 member


Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 265
Loc: New York, USA
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: billeastern]
      #120857 - 11/12/08 02:55 AM

Bill---As you stated a while back in this theard your 4 bore gun you view as a 30-50 yard gun, thus, GOEX will be quite satisfcatory for your needs. I use GOEX now and can make ragged holes at 50 yards with my 54 caliber muzzleloader using IRON sites with regularity. You just can't get better than that as far as I am concerned. GOEX is good powder.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
billeastern
.275 member


Reged: 28/11/08
Posts: 56
Loc: New York
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: Yogi000]
      #120858 - 11/12/08 03:00 AM

Thanks Yogi - thats exactly what I am going to use. Appreciate the advice.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Yogi000
.333 member


Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 265
Loc: New York, USA
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: billeastern]
      #120862 - 11/12/08 03:32 AM

I am deer hunting now with my 54 cal black powder muzzleloader. Too bad I can't seem to get out much this year but it is more than enough caliber for white tail. Mine likes 90 grains of 3F Goex.

I do intend to get out as well with my blunderbuss and a 4 bore round ball, but need to get a little more practice time in before I would hunt with it. During hunting season it is a major event to opt for practice with a new shooter INSTEAD of getting in the woods to hunt.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
billeastern
.275 member


Reged: 28/11/08
Posts: 56
Loc: New York
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: Yogi000]
      #120868 - 11/12/08 04:31 AM

Enjoy the day and good luck out there! I am sitting in my office in NYC as we speak and would trade places with you in a nanosecond...

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26612
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: Yogi000]
      #120953 - 12/12/08 03:31 AM

As to accuracy with the smoothbore

- The larger the ball, the longer will usually be it's usefull accuracy range. This is a general statement. Few 12 bore flintlock shooters I've observed display such accuracy. Shinking from the 'manifestation of the charge' being the main reason (flinching). Of course, the best accuracy obtainable with a smoothbore is caused by the same reasons as in a rifle. Accuracy is in direct relation to it's charge and manner of loading, ie: diameter of ball, thickness of patch, lubricant used and powder charge developed to show that gun's best results.

In testing we've easily made many diagrams (groups) of 5 or more shots at 25 yards with 20 bore smoothbores, that run 1" in diameter - this with only the blade front sight- usually a small, low silver 'turtle' sight and using the 'hump' of the tang as the rear sight indicator. Some smoothbore shooters use the tang screw as an rear indicator for centre, but with my aging eyes that is invisible. For me, the top flat has to be sufficient.

Many smoothbores seem to have a habit of sending downrange, the odd 'flyer' - way out of the group. Whatever causes this is anyone's guess - perhaps something to do with weak patch combinations, too thin for consistancy. Using what we've learned about smoothbore accuracy, I've been able, with one particular 20 bore smoothbore, to make a 5 shot diagram of 3" at 50 yards. This is not common accuracy as most shooters will not be able to load the powder, ball/patch combination we've found necessary to procure such accuracy. My brothers/ 1728 Bess, with it's .774" bore and using a .740" ball along with a .030" denim patch, have been able to reduce this to 2 1/2" at 50 yards, but sending a 600gr. ball downrange with 100gr. 2F GOEX quickly becomes tiring shot off a bench. This particular 'Bess' dispatched a moose at 100 yards range - perfect hit ending up under the hide on the off side. 1 step and it was over. Simple math shows this gun's favourite and accurate load combination measures .800", therefore requiring .026" compression (.013" per side) to fit into the bore. There are not many shooters who load this tightly with rifles, let alone smoothbores. We find it loads easy. Many don't. The muzzle's gentle radiused crown allows such loading. A short starter is necessary. No, they didn't use short starters way back when - they didn't have the accuracy we have today, either.

100 yards shooting with smoothbores for many, becomes a 'hail Mary shot'. Being able to hold 8" to 10" is a sometimes thing, yet I've done it with a ctg. shotgun and round balls, but rarely with smoothbore muzzleloaders and not for the lack of trying. On the other hand, I've seen smoothbore shooters at rendezvous who shoot nothing but their smoothbores (refrain from shooting rifles), who with their smoothbores, push rifle scores all the way out to 125 yards and generally post scores on steel silhouette targets that rival the rifle scores and as happened last year, trounce the rifle scores entirely for 1st and 2nd places. We who shoot mostly rifles, are grateful the scoring is kept separate - yet, those smooth shooters shot little ones, only 20 bores.

A smoothbore therefore and only with good management, can have an effective range of 100 yards, but to do so, usually requires that the shooter use nothing else, becoming proficient in it's feeding and knowing where to hold the 'eye' (rear sight) to make such close hitting possible. This is why most smoothbores fall from grace at much closer ranges - 45 to 75 yards being the normal maximums, depending on the expertise of the shooter. They are capable of better, but few will spend the time and powder to do this.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (12/12/08 03:41 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Yogi000
.333 member


Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 265
Loc: New York, USA
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: DarylS]
      #120972 - 12/12/08 06:57 AM

Daryl---- Thanks. Very useful info.

And yes once again my friends the morale of the story is: Buy More Powder. Shoot More.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Yogi000
.333 member


Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 265
Loc: New York, USA
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: Yogi000]
      #120973 - 12/12/08 07:01 AM

and shhhhhh, don't tell anyone, we just shot my 4 bore blunderbuss at work in the bacl Parking LOT! I let my administrative assistant (25 yr old female) and an RIT student who is with us between semesters shoot it loaded up with about 110 grains of Black Powder with just a CLOTH wad... hey we are within City limits guys, jeeez.... But needless to say everyone got a charge out of the flame that shot out of the front, the hallow BOOM, and the SMOKE!!! hahahaaaaaaaa... we will have more newbies hooked on big bores very soon, my friends. very soon....

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
bigdog
.375 member


Reged: 05/02/06
Posts: 559
Loc: Southern Illinois
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: Yogi000]
      #120987 - 12/12/08 09:44 AM

That away!! Get everyone involved. Its good for the gun business. Glad you had fun.

--------------------
Kyle, I love you buddy, Dad


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
billeastern
.275 member


Reged: 28/11/08
Posts: 56
Loc: New York
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: bigdog]
      #120989 - 12/12/08 09:56 AM

Would love to go out in front of my office and give that a try yogi... in Midtown manhattan.. until of course the cops showed up

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Yogi000
.333 member


Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 265
Loc: New York, USA
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: billeastern]
      #121375 - 17/12/08 04:19 AM

Well, I just emailed Jeff Tanner again. The mould I ordered never got here because it was accidently shipped to my old pre-fire address. Most have been delivered to a big gapping hole in the ground. boohoo, and now is lost in US postal system.

Anyway, since the 1.025" round balls Bob sent to me worked well in my blunderbuss I asked Tanner to send me a 1.025" mould instead of a 1.0" mould since we have to start from scratch with my order for a mould.

I still need to weigh them to get the exact weight in grains of the solid lead 1.025" round balls.

I hope to shoot the round ball load soon again and see if I can handle 180+ grains of pure 2F Black Powder under that mammoth round ball.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26612
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: Yogi000]
      #121389 - 17/12/08 10:11 AM

Yogi000 - can you load a descent patch with that one - like about .025", maybe even heavier?

180gr. = 6.6 drams 2F = such a light load, Sir? 3F will kick more for your shooting pleasure.

Just kidding, I know your little 'canoe' gun is quite light. 'Little' is a sort of play-on-words.
yeah- should be fun.

We'd like to try one out on a grizzly, just to see how impressed he'd be.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
billeastern
.275 member


Reged: 28/11/08
Posts: 56
Loc: New York
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: DarylS]
      #121400 - 17/12/08 02:36 PM

Have fun with that yogi! 1.025 ball in pure lead should be around 1580 grains or so I believe...

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
bigdog
.375 member


Reged: 05/02/06
Posts: 559
Loc: Southern Illinois
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: billeastern]
      #121404 - 17/12/08 04:46 PM

Should be right at 1750 grains for a 4 bore round ball. The naval ordinance 4 bore bullets are 2000 grains.

--------------------
Kyle, I love you buddy, Dad


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Omnivorous_Bob
.333 member


Reged: 03/10/05
Posts: 285
Loc: Montana
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: Yogi000]
      #121407 - 17/12/08 06:05 PM

Yogi, I just weighed the one 1.025 ball in the almost-wheel weight alloy I sent you that I have left and got 1563 grains (it was sized to 1.007"). I think most of them weighed 1570-1580 grains, as I wasn't too picky about getting perfect zero-wrinkle bullets. Close enough for our purposes, I figured.

I weighed 6 unsized pure lead 1.025" balls (with a sprue flat) and got a range of 1602-1608 with an average of 1605.

Despite heating the mold, high casting temp, etc, with my bottom pour pot it takes long enough to fill the mold that a few cold spots seem just about inevitable. On my to-do list is getting a second pot and drilling out the spout and making a larger rod to get a higher flow rate. I've tried using a laddle many times, but the results weren't better enough for the extra effort. By no means am I a casting expert, so I usually shoot for good enough rather than perfect bullets for my own practice.

Bob

--------------------
"If we're not supposed to eat animals, how come they're made out of meat?"


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Yogi000
.333 member


Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 265
Loc: New York, USA
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: Omnivorous_Bob]
      #121417 - 18/12/08 02:27 AM

Bob---I am not sure i know what you mean by---"it was sized to 1.007". I thought the RB's you sent me were 1.025"?

I am concerned because I just changed my order to Tanner to make me a mold that went from a 1.0" ball to a 1.025" ball. I hope a 1.025" ball won't be too big again for my Blunderbuss.

And yes Daryl I hear you about 3F being a sharper kicker than 2F. I didn't post this here but I tried 3F against 2F in this blunderbuss and found the 3F to be quite "fascinating" on the recoil end at the same weight as the 2F.... hahahahaaaaaaaaaa

Edited by Yogi000 (18/12/08 02:30 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Omnivorous_Bob
.333 member


Reged: 03/10/05
Posts: 285
Loc: Montana
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: Yogi000]
      #121421 - 18/12/08 03:20 AM

Sorry about the confusion. The balls I sent you were all 1.025". The one that I weighed was one that had been sized down to 1.007" to use in my gun, leaving a little waist or shank on it. I think that was the reason it was a few grains light (1563 vs 1580 or so).

Bob

--------------------
"If we're not supposed to eat animals, how come they're made out of meat?"


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Yogi000
.333 member


Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 265
Loc: New York, USA
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: Omnivorous_Bob]
      #121424 - 18/12/08 04:23 AM

Whew. Thanks for the clarification. So, I think that would correlate to an good 1580 to 1600 grains for a 1.025"-ish RB.... hmmmm. I agree Daryl 6.6 drams is on the light side but the gun only weighs 8 pounds. I intend to chrono those loads soon. We've just had lousy weather here for playing with loads.

Playing with these big bores is a hoot.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26612
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: Yogi000]
      #121427 - 18/12/08 05:11 AM

Guys - 6 drams should be fun in an 8 pound 4 bore gun. My 14 bore rifle was 'fun' with 6 drams in a 9 pound gun with only a 482gr. ball. Not many black powder shooters would shoot it, let alone fire a second shot for those who did. I thought it was pleasant.

Swaging or sizing a ball will not reduce it's weight as the lead is pressed inside the ball rather than shaved off. Shaving will, of course, reduce it's weight.

For large balls the the filling hole in the mould must be large enough to allow very rapid filling of the mould. Most store-bought moulds have too-small holes for making 600 or 700gr. balls or bullets, let alone 1,500gr. ones.

A clean down-spout in a bottom pound is absolutely necessary for a fast fill for heavy balls or bullets. When clean, my Lee 20 pound pot pours plenty fast, but if the lead and the filling spout in the bottom aren't really clean, dross being pulled into the vent will quickly plug the hole to reduce flow a bit. No problem with small 500gr. bullets or balls but deadly for the really big ones. A dipper with enlarged hole will work well and most likely end up being specific to large bore guns. I would dipp the big ones myself.
I have a very large pot, actually only about 6" across and about 8" deep, that holds an enormous amount of lead. I poured my 50 pound river anchor in one go with it. I think the capacity is around 70 pounds. It is simply a section of pipe with a plate welded onto the bottom, then ground round. Any friends in a welding or muffler shop? Scrap metal yards will have pieces of pipe. Oxy-acetylene will work, but a stinger is faster and probably better. For fast melting jobs of large quantities of lead, I use bricks for a support and channel for the Tiger Torch attached to a 20 pound propane bottle. It will melt 60 pounds of WW in about 5 min. This is how I reduce WW for pouring into ingots. The tiger torch isn't necessary for casting as a camp stove will work - better is a camp stove with the regulator removed - but we won't go there. Mine melts a full - big pot in 20 min. That's propane at 16psi instead of 2 psi.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Yogi000
.333 member


Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 265
Loc: New York, USA
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: DarylS]
      #121437 - 18/12/08 07:40 AM

Darn, I wish I could devote my time to big bore acquistion, molding round balls and cast boolits, load development and hunting---and to heck with this "work thingy". Wow, what a concept! I like it!

Oh wait, I am not independently wealthy nor do I have adequate unearned income to support such a life path.... oh well, looks like I'll have to squeeze this stuff in when I can within an embarrassingly light budget too.

6 drams of powder under a 1600 grain boolit is just too much fun guys. Sell all your peeshooters and get one of these guns.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
billeastern
.275 member


Reged: 28/11/08
Posts: 56
Loc: New York
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: Yogi000]
      #121508 - 19/12/08 01:41 AM

Yogi I am with ya there... Too many guns to shoot too little time...

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Kaimiloa
.224 member


Reged: 12/03/09
Posts: 37
Loc: Arizona, USA
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: billeastern]
      #130096 - 20/03/09 02:25 PM

Billeastern, I PM'd you. Other members, if you happen to know Bill, please let him know - he hasn't been on the Forum for several months.
Thanks and aloha, Ka'imiloa

--------------------
Few pleasures exceed restoring a nice old gun and returning it to shooting and hunting.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
calpappas
.275 member


Reged: 15/10/09
Posts: 71
Loc: Alaska, USA
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: billeastern]
      #144457 - 26/10/09 01:46 PM

Gents:
Greetings from Alaska.
My 4-bore Hughes is a cartridge gun and can be seen on my website. It is a 5-bore in bore size (as are most) at .975" diameter. I use Blue Dot as my smokeless load as FFg GOEX. Don't bother with with Fg as it burns too slow and dirty. 10 drams of FFg is a stiff kicking load in my 22 pound double and 16 drams is down-right unbearable with nearly 1500 fps with a 1743-grain conical bullet. I don't know about patches or muzzle loading rifles but I do have a bit of experience on bore rifles and nitro rifles in the cartridge era. Many rifles can be seen on my website. Take a look.
Cal

--------------------
_______________________________________________________________________

Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska
Cal's Log
CalPappas.com

_______________________________________________________________________


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26612
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: calpappas]
      #144530 - 27/10/09 05:29 AM

Good site, Cal.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
rigbymauser
.400 member


Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 1971
Loc: Denmark
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: DarylS]
      #144541 - 27/10/09 09:53 AM

Quote:

Good site, Cal.




Best there is


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
calpappas
.275 member


Reged: 15/10/09
Posts: 71
Loc: Alaska, USA
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: billeastern]
      #146463 - 23/11/09 02:27 PM

Gents:
I have posted some of my ballistic data on my website for my 4-bore Hughes. I was going to shoot more but winter set in here in Alaska and now I have decided to sell the rifle. Go to calpappas.com The data is on the double rifles page and the rifle is both on this page and the for sale page. Enjoy the pics. My bore diameter is .975 or an actual 5-bore and a round ball weighs 1400 grians. A 1 inch ball should weigh about 1500 and a true 4-bore at 1.052 should weigh 1740 grains. 16 drams or about 440 grains of FFg is the worst kicking rifle I have ever shot! An article on the 4 will appear shortly in the African Hunter and the Black Powder Cartridge News.
Cheers, all.
Cal

--------------------
_______________________________________________________________________

Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska
Cal's Log
CalPappas.com

_______________________________________________________________________


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
calpappas
.275 member


Reged: 15/10/09
Posts: 71
Loc: Alaska, USA
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: billeastern]
      #146464 - 23/11/09 02:31 PM

Bill:
For some loading data on the 4-bore look to my website calpappas.com and see some of the data of my 4-bore Hughes on the double rifles page and photos of the rifle on that page as well as on the for sale page. I have been shooting the bore rifles for years and if I can be of any service just let me know.
Cal

--------------------
_______________________________________________________________________

Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska
Cal's Log
CalPappas.com

_______________________________________________________________________


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | >> (show all)



Extra information
0 registered and 17 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  tinker 

Print Topic

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Rating:
Topic views: 26955

Rate this topic

Jump to

Contact Us NitroExpress.com

Powered by UBB.threads™ 6.5.5


Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact


Copyright 2003 to 2011 - all rights reserved