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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns
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hammersmith
.224 member


Reged: 05/11/08
Posts: 27
Loc: Queensland Australia
Large Frame Martini Action
      #118680 - 11/11/08 08:29 AM

Hi,
I want to build a 12 bore rifle using a large frame martini action as I can't find a Greener GP available at the moment (for sale that is). However I can get a martini action for next to nothing. Is there any reason that a GP would be more desireable to use other than the posibility of making a switch barrel arrangment.

On a side note can anyone tell me about the accuracy of the Pacnor 1-20" barrels. I know the twist rate is way to fast but they are easy to deal with on exports to Australia.

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DoubleD
.400 member


Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2399
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: Large Frame Martini Action [Re: hammersmith]
      #118684 - 11/11/08 11:49 AM

The Greener GP has a safety, the MH doesn't.

The switch barrel concept really doesn't work all that well in the Greener unless you are switching barrels between two cartridges of the same head diameter so you don't have to swap extractors. Swapping the extractor out in a Greener is not a simple task.

--------------------
DD, Ret.

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26516
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Large Frame Martini Action [Re: DoubleD]
      #118717 - 12/11/08 03:27 AM

DD- are they not identical to the BSA Martini Cadets? A simple cross-pin that is a light fit is all that holds the Cadet extractor in. As well, slotting the action underneath up through the threads, then installing a cross screw to hold the trigger plate in, instead of the keeper pin, alows and easy fit of the threads, making it a true take-down if set up with iron sights.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (12/11/08 03:29 AM)

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belgmart
.275 member


Reged: 29/02/04
Posts: 78
Re: Large Frame Martini Action [Re: DarylS]
      #118719 - 12/11/08 04:38 AM

Daryl - these are fitted directly to the frame, no subframe francotte-style with all the parts mounted on it. Changing the extractor means taking down the action (well, at the very least popping the breechblock).
Hammersmith, the GP is wider and has some subtle changes in geometry which makes a 12 gauge a better fit - according to FDH, the round is a tight squeeze in the standard military action.
Even better would be using one og the Greener EG or similar actions, they are not takedown, so stronger.
FWIW, I have a Greener GP takedown in 45-70 - it still has only 1 (one) barrel, which is locktited in the receiver. I prefer an excuse for another rifle...

--------------------
Martini's Rule!

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DoubleD
.400 member


Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2399
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: Large Frame Martini Action [Re: belgmart]
      #118746 - 12/11/08 12:32 PM

Daryl,

What Belgmart said...

--------------------
DD, Ret.

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3482
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Large Frame Martini Action [Re: belgmart]
      #118747 - 12/11/08 12:39 PM

Sorry belgmart, I don't buy this "GP is wider" myth:


.
.
.
.


The way I read a ruler, they're not!!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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DoubleD
.400 member


Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2399
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: Large Frame Martini Action [Re: Marrakai]
      #118751 - 12/11/08 02:34 PM

I just measured three MH actions--the opening in the actions. Two were .990, one was .995. My Westley Rchards trade rifle is .990. My GP 12 gauge is 1.05. My two MK III Greener Police guns are both 1.00. My Khyber pass gun is 1.020.

Edited by DoubleD (12/11/08 02:36 PM)

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3482
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Large Frame Martini Action [Re: DoubleD]
      #118793 - 13/11/08 10:45 AM

DD:
Well, that's interesting....

..unless your Martini actions are Martini Enfield, not Martini Henrys.

I have 2 MHs, an arty carbine and a 3-band rifle, and one GP, and have measured one other GP. All were an inch across the breech-block, give or take a few thou.

Perhaps there is some variation between makes (lets discount the Khyber Pass example, at least!), but I don't believe the GP breech to be consistently or deliberately larger than the MH.

I have the Martini Henry Notebook at home, will check for possible clues this evening.


If this action takes the full force of discharge on the hinge-pin at the rear of the breech-block, then the GP action must be weaker than the MH action because of the removal of metal behind the GP hinge pin to lighten it for shotgun use. If you are building a big-bore rifle on this action, that could be an undesirable feature. Just ask Graham Greener what he thinks of the practice of building big-bore rifles on the GP action, then stand back!

Your point about the safety-catch is a good one though, and may be the critical factor in some jurisdictions for legal reasons.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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DoubleD
.400 member


Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2399
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: Large Frame Martini Action [Re: Marrakai]
      #118794 - 13/11/08 12:19 PM

Yes one of MH's is an ME. But it is "transgender" and began life as an MH.

Another bit of trivia the Greener breech block is longer than the MH family breech blocks also.

The UPS man just delivered a counterfiet Martini that I bought for evaluation for the book I am writing. It's 1.010 wide.

I used a dial caliper for my measurements,

I don't know, did Malcolm cover the difference between Greener and MH in the Handbook.

Actually the hinge pin should recieve no pressure from firing. All the pressure from firing is bore by the breech block knuckle in the knuckle seat. But you are right about the hump back Greener and MK IV MH being not as strong as the slope back MH (ME) Action. Ever wonder why the ME didn't use the MK IV action, this is why.

I'll bet Greener gets excited when he talks about building rifles on shot gun actions. I do know he is rather assertive when discussing using any split receiver or Webley made action using e-clips to building centerfire rifles.

--------------------
DD, Ret.

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
.400 member


Reged: 24/03/04
Posts: 1214
Loc: Western Australia
Re: Large Frame Martini Action [Re: DoubleD]
      #118797 - 13/11/08 01:41 PM

DD,what is the subject matter of the book you are writing?
Al

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

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DoubleD
.400 member


Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2399
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: Large Frame Martini Action [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #118799 - 13/11/08 02:44 PM

Working title is "Shooting the Martini and other Weekend projects." Right now it will be self published. I have an outline fleshed out and I am in the process of gathering research material as well as testing material. Thus the counterfiet that came today. Ever seen fake rust pitting.

Once I have everything gathered up I am going to evaluate what I have and set myself a deadline. I was planning on leaving the deadline open, but if I do that I'm likely to not write at all.

I am probably going to have hire a editor, but that's later.

--------------------
DD, Ret.

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
.400 member


Reged: 24/03/04
Posts: 1214
Loc: Western Australia
Re: Large Frame Martini Action [Re: DoubleD]
      #118814 - 13/11/08 11:07 PM

I've got an interesting rifle that I posted on NX some years ago.
Basicly a 577/20 as far as I can work out.

Al

Here it is.

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=17642&an=0&page=14#Post17642

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

Edited by ALAN_MCKENZIE (13/11/08 11:13 PM)

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hammersmith
.224 member


Reged: 05/11/08
Posts: 27
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: Large Frame Martini Action [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #118839 - 14/11/08 08:38 AM

Thanks for your input. When I mentioned the switch barrel I was refering to using the standard shotgun barrel and the rifled barrel not changing calibre. I may have got a lead on a GP now but I'll see how it pans out. The main difference I can see between a MH/ME and a GP is the recontouring of the breech block to allow a 12G round to sit flatter in the action with the block down so the round will feed easier as can be seen in Marrakai's photos. I'll have a play around and see if there are any other reasons that it may not be adaptable.

thanks,

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DoubleD
.400 member


Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2399
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: Large Frame Martini Action [Re: hammersmith]
      #118846 - 14/11/08 01:01 PM

Better be carefull recontouring Martini breech blocks. The Breech block is the locking lugs and it is easy to weaken. The more correct way to get a little more room is to adjust load height.

--------------------
DD, Ret.

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