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dangerousdave
.224 member


Reged: 04/02/04
Posts: 14
Loc: Ft.Lauderdale,Florida
I want your opinion
      #11860 - 19/03/04 05:57 AM

On a recent trip to TZ,booked through a booking agent,I had a slight problem and I would like to get some input from all you experts.The hunt I booked was for 10 days for 2 Buffalo and the plains game permitted on the 7 day licsence. Prior to the trip I asked the booking agent specifically if bird hunting was available and should I bring a shot gun? I was told there would be opportunities to hunt birds,but there was no need to bring a shot gun as one would be available for me to use in camp. As it turned out I did have several opportunities to hunt birds but there was no shotgun available. I did some fishing and additional sight seeing to fill my time. I mentioned the problem opon my return and the only response I got from the booking agent was,"they should have had one" What do you think I should do as a follow up and what reponsibilities do booking agents have? My experiences with booking agents is that they take no responsibilty once the hunt is booked and paid for,give me your opinions..Dangerous Dave

--------------------
Be good to your children,they pick your nursing home


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AspenHill
Sponsor


Reged: 08/01/03
Posts: 1528
Loc: Vermont, USA
Re: I want your opinion [Re: dangerousdave]
      #11862 - 19/03/04 06:47 AM

Dave,

I am an agent. I have never known a PH who did not have a shotgun available. Hard to say why they did not have one while you are there.

--------------------
~Ann

Everyday spent outdoors is the best day of my life.

Aspen Hill Adventures


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Will
.333 member


Reged: 04/02/03
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: I want your opinion [Re: AspenHill]
      #11863 - 19/03/04 07:10 AM

Take your own next time. The booking agent got you into 2 buff. Let it go.

I was really pissed one time when they didn't have my brand of champagne in camp!

(I usually demand that they have fresh whole milk in camp...sometimes it happens and sometimes it doesn't. I have never capped a PH over it, though).

--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.


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dangerousdave
.224 member


Reged: 04/02/04
Posts: 14
Loc: Ft.Lauderdale,Florida
Re: I want your opinion [Re: AspenHill]
      #11864 - 19/03/04 07:33 AM

Thanks for the quick replies,I found both very interesting #1 from Ann your response is consistent with that in your industry;"they should have had one" your right but they did not so if I were your unhappy client what would you be prepared to do about it? I really want to know?..#2 Will I hardly think that not having a gun available as requested on a hunt compares to the right Champagne or Whole milk.G-d I hope you were kidding! It's good to see that AR doesn't have the monopoly on sarcasim.

--------------------
Be good to your children,they pick your nursing home


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Rick_R
.300 member


Reged: 03/07/03
Posts: 117
Loc: WV, USA
Re: I want your opinion [Re: dangerousdave]
      #11873 - 19/03/04 09:08 AM

Dave,

What was the response in camp when you asked for the use of the shotgun? Did they ever have one, was it out to the laundry, gave it up for Lent?

Just curious as to how much the Booking Agent actually knew about the Outfitter's operation.

Rick


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McCray
.224 member


Reged: 10/02/03
Posts: 20
Loc: Oklahoma
Re: I want your opinion [Re: dangerousdave]
      #11878 - 19/03/04 10:24 AM

As near as I have been able to tell,

The booking agents first priority is to make himself money.

Second priority is to make the PH money. Sometimes.

Third is to make the customer happy.

Too many of the agents have never hunted with the outfits they are booking for, and will say anything except that they "Don't know."

The reality is that if you were not happy with the agent, don't use them again or recommend them to others. The industry is unregulated except by withholding business from them.

All in all, if the lack of a shotgun was your only problem, count your blessings. If you are happy with the deal otherwise, you might be able to use the shotgun business to leverage something the next time you book with them. But they still get more of your money.

Good luck.


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mikeh416Rigby
.450 member


Reged: 24/02/03
Posts: 6051
Loc: The beautiful Oley Valley, PA....
Re: I want your opinion [Re: dangerousdave]
      #11881 - 19/03/04 12:14 PM

What you ran into is a prime example of why I personally contact the outfitter prior to my hunt. I can ask the questions directly, and get my answers directly from the horses mouth. Last week I spoke with my P.H. in Namibia for next years hunt. I spent 42 minutes on the phone with him, and it cost me 8 dollars for the call-cheap insurance if you ask me.

Edited by mikeh416Rigby (19/03/04 12:17 PM)


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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39263
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: I want your opinion [Re: mikeh416Rigby]
      #11887 - 19/03/04 12:49 PM

In reply to:

Poster: mikeh416Rigby
Subject: Re: I want your opinion

What you ran into is a prime example of why I personally contact the outfitter prior to my hunt. I can ask the questions directly, and get my answers directly from the horses mouth. Last week I spoke with my P.H. in Namibia for next years hunt. I spent 42 minutes on the phone with him, and it cost me 8 dollars for the call-cheap insurance if you ask me.






Very good advice.


I would post a Hunt Report on the Outfitter and Agent. But make it a fair report, especially as the outfitter seemed to have done everything fair enough.

If the Agent is anwering questions with BS then people should know this, so AT LEAST they know to check things/confirm with the outfitter directly. Which I also try to do. If this upsets the agent, this is their problem, not mine. It is my money and my hunt.

But I would also like to know what the outfitter said about the shotgun - did they ever have one? No ammunition - ie perhaps the client is expected to bring some? Is was broken? Whatever.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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shakari
.400 member


Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: I want your opinion [Re: NitroX]
      #11924 - 19/03/04 04:06 PM

To be honest, most agents wouldn't be able to give a reliable answer to that type of question..... they would just be telling you what they think you want to hear. A good agent would probably have said, give me a few days and I'll find out.

Whenever anyone books a hunt through an agent it's a good idea to ask to be put in touch with the outfitter personally. If it's an ethical agent, he won't have a problem with it and if it's an ethical outfitter he won't try to cut the agent out and if one or the other isn't behaving ethically then you don't want to do business with them anyway.

The problem is there are a lot of unethical people and people who simply don't know the business and are trying to make a few bucks by becoming an instant expert out there, on both sides of the fence, so it pays to be cautious in your choice of agents and outfitters you do business with.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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luv2safari
.400 member


Reged: 09/11/03
Posts: 1401
Loc: United States
Re: I want your opinion [Re: shakari]
      #11927 - 19/03/04 04:33 PM

Shakari is absolutely correct! If an agent won't put you in touch with the outfitter, he has something to hide. Turn tail and run if this happens.......

Please remember that the outfitters are in the bush much of the time and may be difficult to contact, but keep trying.

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics


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DBBill
.300 member


Reged: 25/05/03
Posts: 137
Loc: Southern California, USA
Re: I want your opinion [Re: dangerousdave]
      #11937 - 19/03/04 07:00 PM

Dave......what do you think the booking agent should have said or done?

Sequence of events

#1) Client asks about shotgun.
#2) Booking agent asks PH and requests one for client.
#3) Client gets to camp and no shotgun.
#4) Client tells PH there was supposed to be a shotgun.
#5) PH says or thinks .... ????
#6) Client tells booking agent there was not shotgun.

Your choice for #7.....

a) Booking agent says there was supposed to be.

b) Booking agent says there was supposed to be and then contacts PH and asks about the shotgun and PH says ... I forgot or it was broke or ....

c) Booking agent says there was supposed to be but since there wasn't, I will never represent that PH again and here is my commission from your hunt.


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mickey
.416 member


Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: I want your opinion [Re: DBBill]
      #11939 - 19/03/04 07:09 PM

Right, I'm sure that c will be the one that the booking agents will pick.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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TerryBlauwkamp
.224 member


Reged: 28/02/04
Posts: 18
Loc: Michigan
Re: I want your opinion [Re: McCray]
      #11954 - 19/03/04 11:55 PM

I think Mc Cray has hit the nail on the head.

I could count on one hand, the agents I would ever do business with.

--------------------
MayI be half the man my dog thinks I am.


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shakari
.400 member


Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: I want your opinion [Re: TerryBlauwkamp]
      #11969 - 20/03/04 04:44 AM

The most likely sequence of events would have been that the client asked if a shotgun would be available in camp, the agent said yes no problem and did no more about it.

Sadly the vast majority of agents are 'instant experts' and don't really know much about the business. They're the ones who will tell you what they think you want to hear rather than the truth.

A GREAT example of this happened to a client who booked a 21 day Tanzanian hunt with me. (which incidentally was very successful)

This guy had previously booked a rhino dart hunt through a US agent with a RSA outfitter..... THE HUNT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH ME WHATSOEVER The clients (signed) contract told him that his hunt began and ended at JIA and that's where the PH would collect him and return him to...... 3 day's before departure the client managed to talk to the outfitter on the phone who told him that he was actually being collected from Richards Bay Airport in KZN.... if that conversation hadn't taken place the client would have been waiting to be collected at the wrong airport. As it was he only just managed to get a seat on the connecting flight.

He had also been told that his package included an Nyala.......no-one mentioned that the trophy fee was almost $2k..... then the contract promised a set date for shipment of the fibreglass rhino trophy.... it left RSA about 3 months after the promised date and only then after the client had been forced to appoint an RSA agent who had to threaten to report the outfitter to PHASA if he didn't do something about it..... the outfitter had obviously intended not to send a trophy at all. Then the Nyala skin and trophy that the client had asked to be sent to his choice of taxidermist failed to arrive and it took 5 months and numerous threats of complaining to PHASA from the RSA agent before the trophy got sent to the correct taxidermist.... by then the skin was completely buggered.

Through all this hassle the US agent refused to even answer e-mails, phone calls and registered letters. His attitude was that he had the clients money and wasn't interested anymore.

What made this all worse was that the outfitter concerned actually sits on the board of PHASA.

I'm not tarring all agents with the same brush. Some are very good, but most are a waste of space. Anyone booking through an agent should ask to be put in contact with the PH/outfitter at an early stage and if the agent refuses to co-operate then the client should look elsewhere.

This just goes to prove how important it is to check references thoroughly and avoid any deal that looks a little too good to be true...... because it is probably just that. The industry is full of cowboys, so it pays to only deal with the real professionals......even if at first glance it looks that it will cost a bit more. In the long run, quality is always worth paying for.

Guys, that's just one example of how things can go wrong if you don't do your homework properly......there's dozens more.

Incidentally, the client concerned now books all his African hunts with me and no-one else and he sends others to me on a regular basis......so the couldn't care less attitude of the US agent and this other outfitter has cost them something like US$100,000 worth of business every year.

P'raps I should thank them!

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



Edited by shakari (20/03/04 04:25 PM)


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mickey
.416 member


Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: I want your opinion [Re: shakari]
      #11979 - 20/03/04 10:00 AM

One thing that few people know or act upon is the fact that Booking Agents are responsible under the Consumer Protection Laws of the State of Residence of the Client if the contract is signed there. In Washington that puts the Agent on the hook for up to three times the damages if negligence or misrepresentation is proven.

What, no contract? A verbal one can still be proven with adequate documenation. A judgement in one state can be collected in another although the process is more difficult.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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Will
.333 member


Reged: 04/02/03
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: I want your opinion [Re: mickey]
      #11990 - 20/03/04 12:32 PM

Lawyer crap

Jesus, the guy didn't get to shoot a couple doves or francolin.

Shoot the PH, cap the tracker, sue the camp staff, sue Toyota, sue the booking agent, sue his mother for giving birth to the SOB, shoot his dog, sue South African Airlines, sue the ticketing agent, sue the airport authority, sue the manufacturer of the car that was used to get to the airport, sue SCI, sue the NRA, sue President Bush, sue the gun manufacturer (and get a 100% refund from the dealer), sue the ammunition manufacturer and get a refund on any unused but open boxes, sue the scope manufacturer (or at least demand a new scope from Leupold, after trashing one of their scopes for the last 40 years, as some of these yahoos do (Gee, I wonder who pays for that?)), sue the boot manufacturer because there was no need for the birdshooters (even though they were worn for six weeks), sue the beer manufacturer for letting your tears dissolve when they fell into the glass, ...

Does anyone know how to spell PERSPECTIVE?

--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.


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McCray
.224 member


Reged: 10/02/03
Posts: 20
Loc: Oklahoma
Re: I want your opinion [Re: Will]
      #11995 - 20/03/04 02:01 PM

Now you're getting the idea!

Isn't a perspective one of those submarine things you look through?

Joe.


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luv2safari
.400 member


Reged: 09/11/03
Posts: 1401
Loc: United States
Re: I want your opinion [Re: Will]
      #11996 - 20/03/04 02:02 PM

Will

Some of us go to Africa for the bird shooting as much as for the plains game and big game hunting. For me, a trip to Africa without a couple of days hunting francolin, guinea, and sand grouse isn't a complete safari.

That is our PERSPECTIVE...different things float other's boats...

If I were to be promised some bird hunting and find it not delivered, someone would have a greatly enlarged ass hole!

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics


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lundboat
.224 member


Reged: 20/03/04
Posts: 1
Re: I want your opinion [Re: Will]
      #11997 - 20/03/04 02:13 PM

Thank you Will, I needed that!

Seems that if a bird hunt was that important, a day of the hunt or part day of the hunt should have been set aside for it in the booking proceedure. Thats a little different than having a shotgun available in camp.

But, I guess I'm the type that drives outfitters nuts with a million questions and clarifications up front. Sounds to me like the desire to bird hunt was not expressed enough on either the hunters part or by the booking agent.



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luv2safari
.400 member


Reged: 09/11/03
Posts: 1401
Loc: United States
Re: I want your opinion [Re: McCray]
      #12012 - 20/03/04 03:51 PM

McCray

No...that's a proctoscope...

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics


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atkinson6
.375 member


Reged: 26/01/04
Posts: 678
Loc: Idaho
Re: I want your opinion [Re: luv2safari]
      #12035 - 20/03/04 05:13 PM

As a booking agent I would expect them to have a shotgun if they said they would...thats not a big deal for them to comply with..

As to booking agents, I know many that care about their clients, and I know a lot of PH that don't and visa versa.
But if you ever have to deal with a PH or Safari Company in foriegn country because your hunt went sour, you will be a lot more friendly to your next booking agent..


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luv2safari
.400 member


Reged: 09/11/03
Posts: 1401
Loc: United States
Re: I want your opinion [Re: atkinson6]
      #12041 - 20/03/04 05:33 PM

Ray,

I know of one particular booking agent who went above and beyond to make things right for me...remember?...and thank you, again!

luv2

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics


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McCray
.224 member


Reged: 10/02/03
Posts: 20
Loc: Oklahoma
Re: I want your opinion [Re: luv2safari]
      #12060 - 21/03/04 01:42 AM

I thought a proctoscope was used by astronomers to look at Uranus???

Oh well, my mistake.


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luv2safari
.400 member


Reged: 09/11/03
Posts: 1401
Loc: United States
Re: I want your opinion [Re: McCray]
      #12062 - 21/03/04 02:51 AM

Maybe ur'anus...but not mine...

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics


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Harry
.224 member


Reged: 02/03/04
Posts: 12
Loc: Texas
Re: I want your opinion [Re: luv2safari]
      #12087 - 21/03/04 09:55 AM

Well...I am one of those small time booking agents that does not know a hell of a lot. The only way you learn is to jump into the water and swim like hell. It is not a bother to me to put my customer in touch direct with the PH or landowner. Most times I just forward your e mail straight on to the PH / landowner. It was the landowner that asked me to rep them and not the other way around.
Some of us get into the business due to so many customers asking us questions about this or that and to help them with a hunt. So far all that has gone on has been understated and not overstated but I am sure that is because my folks are also small time and try so hard to please the few customers we have.
What the hell is wrong with saying, "I don't know but I will find out."? I do that all the time. Have yet to be shot over it.
There is that old saying which says...No good deed shall go unpunished. I find it true at least once a month.
I did have my contracts printed on butt friendly paper just in case........


--------------------
You can borrow money but you can not borrow time. Go hunting with your family.


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