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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Rifles
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mehulkamdar
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Vergueiro rifle opinions
      #118246 - 04/11/08 01:55 AM

I have the opportunity to buy an old Vergueiro rifle that was sporterised some decades ago. It is an 8mm Mauser rifle and looks very nicely maintained. I tried the action and it seems very nice and smooth. Is this a good rifle to buy? The asking price is exstremely low. The seller seems like a nice man and he happily admitted that he ahd never shot it and didn't know how it would shoot. As I like the relatively unusual stuff, I have been considering buying it.

Opinions / suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance and good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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bigger_is_best
.275 member


Reged: 16/01/07
Posts: 82
Loc: Australia
Re: Vergueiro rifle opinions [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #118266 - 04/11/08 07:17 AM

If you are talking about the portuguese military mauser rifle, I very much like them. The sights fited to the 8mm conversions were one of the best I have seen on a military rifle, and beter for me than most standard comercial sights. I find the action to be extremely smooth and fast, rivaling the lee enfield. I find it better than many comercial actions in that regard. the drop floor magazine is also a nice touch, stops you needing to cycle rounds through too empty it.
Many people tell me that these rifles are not as good as the 98 mauser, but I would disagree. The strength is suposedly down from the 98 mauser, but I don't know where this would become important unless you want to grosly overload it or try for a magnum conversion. The split rear bridge apparently makes scope mounting difficult. This is not an issue to me as I mostly use open sighted firearms, with just a few scoped for sniping rather than hunting. Not a critisism of others, just my preferance, and I may change that view now my eyes are getting tired.

The original calibre was 6.5mm, with a 58mm case length, but I have never seen one in that calibre. I believe they were all officialy converted to 8mm by the portuguese many years ago.
As to price, I remeber them being sold in Australia for $35 each, complete with bayonet and leather sling, all in very good to excelent condition. Wish I had bought a stack of them, although later events would have destroyed them anyway. I know some "custom" makers here bought them just for the floor plates, throwing the rest away. Sad waste.

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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5504
Loc: United States
Re: Vergueiro rifle opinions [Re: bigger_is_best]
      #118284 - 04/11/08 12:47 PM

Quote:

although later events would have destroyed them anyway.



Can somebodypound on this?

Marrakai in a previous post implied that Aussies can own any guns they like, or any number of them at least.

Mehul;

I've never owned a Vergueiro, but have always wanted to. Very interesting action type, and if metallurgy and heat treatment were up to snuff, I can hardly see how they would be less strong than a 98 Mauser. A cheap 8x57 sporter would be a really interesting rifle to play with.

Buy it!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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88MauSporter
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Reged: 06/06/07
Posts: 530
Loc: Alaska / Texas
Re: Vergueiro rifle opinions [Re: 9.3x57]
      #118287 - 04/11/08 01:54 PM

Mehul Kamdar : In my collection, I have an 8mm conversion of the Vergueiro. I agree with bigger_is_best. The sights are very good for a military Mauser rifle. Much like the Swedish Mausers, but maybe better. Mine is a little stiff in the opening of the action, but smooth. It shoots good ammo very well. I just haven't been able to part with it or alter it in any way. The military stock is slim and light. Sporterizing would not improve the function, only the look.
I say buy it if the numbers match and the headspace is good.

--------------------
"A hunter should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everthing goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." 88MauSporter

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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Vergueiro rifle opinions [Re: 9.3x57]
      #118288 - 04/11/08 02:02 PM

Mehul, my beloved!

You are so good to others in your efforts to post images FOR THEM -- how about posting some images for your own thread here, good friend?


I very much like these rifles - and would much enjoy seeing this sporter you speak of.
The King's crown and signet on the action ring is definitely a winner in any style match.

On action strength, once you determine it's in good shooting shape and identify what barrel is screwed to it, you won't need to consider much ultimate strength limits as you'll no doubt be running 198gr SNRN bullets in the 2200-2300 fps range, not ultra sizzling barn-burning hyper velocity BS anyway...
The ~200gr round nose bullets going out in the low two grand MV are sweet shooting and great killing loads.
They feel good on the rifle, sound right, and smack the shit out of mule deer and elk!
It'd be great on California Coastal Black Bear too - *hint-hint*

Photos Mehul, Photos!
This will be a great rifle to take out in the woods as a solid, stylish hunting rifle - a rifle you can feed your FAMILY with!!

On the price, I'm guessing you'll bag it for under $300, even close to $200.
I just saw a totally perfect Chilean Tanker Carbine go for under $300, with 200rds of ammunition.

Get it while the getting's good!!




--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3489
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Vergueiro rifle opinions [Re: tinker]
      #118301 - 04/11/08 05:01 PM

A rather nice 8mm Vergueiro resides in my gunsafe also, although as we speak it is in bits for stock refurbishment.

I agree with everyone here, they are marvellous rifles and great fun to shoot. A sporter conversion would be a joy.

A word of caution, check the metal beneath the stock (barrel and action) before closing the deal on a military Vergueiro. Mausers may be prone to rust and pitting, but these things corrode like you wouldn't believe! I paid the dealer an extra 50 bucks to pull a half-dozen out of their stock-wood and send me the best one. It was still pitted, but not disasterous. One of them was downright dangerous!!

If you want to win beers at your local shooting club, Mehul, just disassemble the Vergueiro's bolt and challenge the 'experts' to reassemble it!!


...and bigger_is_best, you will have to elaborate on those destructive "later events". A house fire? Messy divorce? You've got our overseas colleagues suspecting some kind of Government restrictions....

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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mehulkamdar
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Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: Vergueiro rifle opinions [Re: Marrakai]
      #118351 - 05/11/08 05:45 PM

Bigger_is_Best,

Yes, this is the Portuguese military rifle but with a replacement stock. It looks like it is in good shape. I don't plan on shooting it with anything other than US manufactured 8x57JS ammunition and my guess is that that would be safe in this rifle.

9ThreeXFifty7,

Yes, the encouragement here is pushing me to buy this rifle. Hope to talk to the seller and pick it up soon.

88MauSporter,

I didn't check if the numbers matched but I did work the bolt on the rifle and it was extremely smooth. The stock has been replaced and there is nothing, unfortunately, that I can do about it now. I guess I'll have to live with it after I buy the rifle.

Tinker,

The rifle isn;t mine yet, my friend, but I hope to make her mine soon. My club meets on Thursday evenings and Sunday afternoons and I shall pick it up and post pictures here when I have her in hand like I have always done in the past. Yes, I have no plans of hotrodding her in any way. I have a Mauser sporter which shoots Federal 197gr PSP ammo beautifully and I am going to try that in this one after I buy her. Hope to pick her up soon.

Marrakai,

Thanks for the warning about disassembly - assembly especially as I am all toes, not thumbs.

Thank you, gentlemen, for all the wonderful advice. Hope to post here with pictures very soon.

Good hunting, everyone!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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ChrisPer
.300 member


Reged: 12/05/08
Posts: 235
Loc: Australia
Re: Vergueiro rifle opinions [Re: 9.3x57]
      #118352 - 05/11/08 06:50 PM

Quote:

Quote:

although later events would have destroyed them anyway.


Can somebody expound on this?

Marrakai in a previous post implied that Aussies can own any guns they like, or any number of them at least.




The confiscation of 1996-1997 resulted in destruction of semiauto longarms of all kinds, and all pump action shotguns. There were a very few exceptionst for a few licenced to pest control companies, and a few farmers who jumped through hoops to keep them for serious pest control problems. So serious indeed were the restrictions that I know of a farm with pest control problems being acquired and farmed specifically to retain the family auto shotgun (but I add the owner really farms it, its not just a prop).

No bolt action rifles were confiscated though many were surrendered and destroyed (for no compensation) rather than go through the nonsense to license them.

The big change in Queensland and Tasmania was that the owners had to get licenses for them and permits to acquire each additional one, based on genuine reasons and genuine need criteria. For Western Australians, the laws were little different to before except we lost our 10/22s and Remington 1100s.

Hate laws, founded in moral hypocrisy and contempt for decent people IMO.

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bigger_is_best
.275 member


Reged: 16/01/07
Posts: 82
Loc: Australia
Re: Vergueiro rifle opinions [Re: ChrisPer]
      #118374 - 06/11/08 06:40 AM

Bit off topic, but reason for loss of guns.

When the Johny hate guns howard thing happened, NSW police had differing attitudes, depending on personal beliefs. The actual "LAW" had little to do with their "regulations" Among the dozen or so I lost was one nice Portuguese mauser, Very good condition. My brother lost 2, among others.

The rule applied in my town was that we had to provide a "genuine reason" for each gun. If we had a gun in a particular class, why did we need a second one. This meant that you could get away with 2 if you listed both hunting and target shooting, because we all "know" that they are different.

However if you owned a .22 hornet and a 458 Winchester you already had 2 "centre fire rifles" so why would you need a .308, and the application could be refused.

Things have eased a little over the years, but I do know a person who was questioned last year as to why he "needed" a third Lee-enfield 303. He has a modified range rifle for big bore target, and shoots military service with a No.1 MkII. He wanted a No.4, and the police suggested he needed to get a collectors licence if he was collecting them, and 3 sounded like too many of the same gun. He did get approval after a couple of letters, giving match rules too show the "need" for the No.1 and the range rifle, and classing the No. 4 for hunting.

If I sound like a bitter and twisted old man, I might be.

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3489
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Vergueiro rifle opinions [Re: bigger_is_best]
      #118389 - 06/11/08 11:24 AM

Quote:

NSW police had differing attitudes, depending on personal beliefs. The actual "LAW" had little to do with their "regulations"


Well, that wasn't what I expected to hear, bigger_is_best...
Glad I don't live in NSW!

Sounds to me like the NSW Police were almost certainly acting illegally in confiscating bolt-action rifles. Pity more people didn't call them out on this.

The infamous May 10 agreement didn't mention bolt-action rifles per se, and they were certainly not even on the radar in the NT where I live.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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88MauSporter
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Reged: 06/06/07
Posts: 530
Loc: Alaska / Texas
Re: Vergueiro rifle opinions [Re: Marrakai]
      #118402 - 06/11/08 02:11 PM

Mehul:
Congrates if you already bought the rifle. I enjoy mine. It is a nice handler and I would take it to the range or the field any day. The stock is dimensioned much like my Mauser '98/22. This is much like the classic GEW 98 full rifle of WWI German fame, but with much slimmer dimensions and lighter and better handling qualities.

--------------------
"A hunter should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everthing goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." 88MauSporter

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peter
removed


Reged: 11/04/07
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Re: Vergueiro rifle opinions [Re: 88MauSporter]
      #118414 - 06/11/08 07:44 PM

so where are the pic's, anybody ? and on a tread mehul has started himself.....

cheers

peter

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mehulkamdar
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Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: Vergueiro rifle opinions [Re: 88MauSporter]
      #118454 - 07/11/08 06:30 AM

88MauSporter,

No, I don't have the rifle yet. My club meets on Thursday evenings and Sunday afternoons. I shall pick it up as soon as possible and the pictures will be here when I have the rifle in hand.

I do have some other pics which I shall also post over the weekend.

Good hunting!

Peter,

Ditto as above.

Cheers!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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bigger_is_best
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Reged: 16/01/07
Posts: 82
Loc: Australia
Re: Vergueiro rifle opinions [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #118468 - 07/11/08 11:04 AM

Marrakai, the bolt actions were not "banned", however the licence requirements stated that applicants must demonstrate a "genuine reason" for any firearm owned. To the best of my knowledge there was no limit on the number of firearms, BUT, a geniune reason was needed for each one. The argument of some - not all - police and other officials was along the lines of
"if you need a centrefire rifle to hunt pigs and you have a centrefire rifle, you cannot demonstrate a need for a second one, because you can only fire one at a time."
It was nessesary to use published information such as data requiring a minimum of .243 for deer hunting in order to get "another" centrefire licenced in your name if you already owned something like a .22 hornet, because both are classed as centrefire, so why do we need 2 of them.
At that point there was much in the way of threats and intimidation, and people were led to believe they might have their licenced firearms "re-assessed" later, with possible refusal and subsequent loss without compensation. As far as I know that did not occur, at least not on a wide basis, but at the time many took what they could get due to the fear and uncertainty.

Things are better now, and it seems rare for a permit to aquire to be challenged on such ignorant grounds, but it may still happen, and is within the regulations, if not the spirit of the actual law.

On the other side of things, I know of a person who was granted a "C" licence for his 22 semi auto, on the basis that he was old and did not tolerate recoil, and he had been previously directed by a government body to control feral pigs on his land, courtesy of a neighbouring nature reserve.
He argued that a .22 was inadequite, so he needed to fire repeatedly and quickly. He was initialy rejected, but simply kept sending the same application in each time it was rejected. After many rejections the registry apparently gave up and issued his "C" licence, along with his "A & B".
No logic, but it always makes me feel good when someone wins against idiots.

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Marrakai
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Re: Vergueiro rifle opinions [Re: bigger_is_best]
      #118476 - 07/11/08 02:15 PM

Quote:

but at the time many took what they could get...


bigger_is_best;
You imply that compensation was paid for surrendered bolt-action rifles. That was not possible under the terms of the Federal buy-back funded by the medicare levee. Was this a NSW Govt initiative, funded by that state? Sorry to harp on this, but I had a bit to do with rewriting the NT Legislation, from the shooters point of view, and thought I had a grip on what happened in other states.

Apologies for the hijack, Mehul.
I should add that a whole bunch of Vergueiro rifles landed on our shores in one hit maybe 8 or 10 years ago, hence my comments about asking the vendor to pick me out a good one. They had crates of them apparently. The other good thing about that was cheap buying price!
One of my friends made up a nice "poor-man's Mannlicher" for his step-son, complete with spoon bolt-handle and full-length stock, still in 8mm x57. Lovely hunting rifle!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
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Re: Vergueiro rifle opinions [Re: Marrakai]
      #118477 - 07/11/08 02:20 PM

Man, the Aussie laws discussion sounds like it is concerning two different countries.

Sounds like your laws vary quite a bit from state-to-state and copshop-to-copshop, the latter being, of course, always the problem with gun control laws whenever a police interpretation is required...

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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bigger_is_best
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Re: Vergueiro rifle opinions [Re: 9.3x57]
      #118526 - 08/11/08 08:16 AM

Compensation was as variable as anything else. An individual police officer I knew encouraged me to round up any guns or gun parts to hand in, or even to manufacture guns from pipe and other materials, as his station was paying out around $150 on anything that vagely resembled a gun. I saw some of the items surrendered, and they were obviously home made, unsafe, and in most cases were not capable of being fired. Even barrels were taken for $50 to $100 (just the barrel, nothing attached, sometimes just half of barrels as in 30" shotgun made into 20" coach gun, 10" barrels =$50 on surrendor.) One he showed me consisted of a length of water pipe with a door bolt in it, atached to a rough cut piece of 1" plank with pluming sadles. No trigger or firing pin at all, $50 paid.

In the case of myself, close friends and family in my area, compensation was paid for any firearm surrendered, including single shot, bolt, lever or pump rifles. The amounts were average, some got good money - my brother for example surendered several SKS in very poor condition (he bought them from shooters who had neglected them and I made them work again - and yes they will stop if abused enough)On average he paid $25 each, and was given $400 on surrender. On the other side a close friend passed in his Ruger mini-14 with extra stock and all accesories, complete with licenced dealer valuation aproaching $2500, and was give $1400. Option of appeal was there, but he did not persue it past the first exchange of letters.

In my brothers case he held many many rounds of 7.62X39 ammunition, which was not compensated if surrendered, and ended up buying a chineses bolt action to use it up in.

The entire episode still makes me bitter, and I doubt that will change.

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Bakes
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Reged: 31/01/03
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Re: Vergueiro rifle opinions [Re: bigger_is_best]
      #119685 - 28/11/08 10:27 PM

Coming in a bit late. I have one of these in 8mm. I love this little rifle and have taken a few pigs with it. I scraped off the military varnish on the stock and found some beautiful wood underneith. As Marrakai said, watch the bolt...its a barstard to work out how to get it back together. I had to see my gunsmith and we went through some old books to fnd out how it worked


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