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watto
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Reged: 10/06/07
Posts: 90
Loc: Victoria,Australia
Re: REM/Baikal 45-70, I took the Plunge [Re: farshot]
      #118959 - 16/11/08 03:56 PM

G'day WCF and others.
I also took the plunge and added the 45-70 to the fold.

At the risk of starting a controversy. Now that we know the Baikal 45-70 is proofed to 33,000 psi,
there are some nice traditional loads that come in at considerably lower pressures. Have a look at the latest Lyman loading book at 45-110 for example. After seeing some of these loads I went further afield and got out my copy of GW's book to see what he had to say. Lo and behold the 450 x 3 1/4 NE in it's original cordite load went a little too high, but his loads quoted with modern components are going about 25,500psi giving a safety factor of 7,500psi! As there is little difference in the rim diameter the thrust factor should not be a problem.

Taking these figures into account and leaving overloading or the wrong powder being used out of the equation, (as this can be done with any rifle) could somebody explain to me why this type of conversion could not be carried out by a good qualified and competent gunsmith.

All the best and good shooting,

Ian.

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500Nitro
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Re: REM/Baikal 45-70, I took the Plunge [Re: watto]
      #118960 - 16/11/08 04:01 PM



The amount of metal available in front of the chamber ?

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watto
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Re: REM/Baikal 45-70, I took the Plunge [Re: 500Nitro]
      #118968 - 16/11/08 11:00 PM

G'day 500N, I must admit the same thought went through my mind, but not having the rifle here I can't check it until I get back to Victoria in a few weeks. From memory I think the barrels only taper quite slowly initially from the full thickness of the mono-block. Maybe some kind person with a 45-70 SxS Baikal could answer that question for me?

All the best and good hunting, Ian.

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500Nitro
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Re: REM/Baikal 45-70, I took the Plunge [Re: watto]
      #118971 - 17/11/08 12:56 AM



Suggest you have a read of the info on AR.

Might give you some thoughts.

I haven't seen a heap of people yet do it
- maybe they haven't come out of the woodwork yet
- but I think if it was possible, alot would have done it.

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Bramble
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Re: REM/Baikal 45-70, I took the Plunge [Re: 500Nitro]
      #118986 - 17/11/08 05:45 AM

How about because the CIP MIP of the 3 1/3 .450NE is 50,914 PSI (Pizo)

and therefore the finished item will have to withstand proof of 66,188 psi.

The fact that it can be loaded to less is irrelevent as somebody else may attemp to fire it later with a different load.

So no " a good qualified and competent gunsmith." is going to want to do it.
Further it would cost plenty to rechamber and re-regulate (not withstanding the jack screws) by the time one has done all this one is stll left with a baiakial that one would not be entirly sure of. For a couple of grand more there are used entry level german guns built for caliber to suit.

The 45-70 Baiakial is a great idea and a fun gun I would think. I have one of their shotguns for many years. I just built a 30-30 DR on a jones underlever for a fun gun. Great things but IMHO they should be left in lighter calibers and a better gun bought for the big stuff.

Regards

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DarylS
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Re: REM/Baikal 45-70, I took the Plunge [Re: Bramble]
      #118992 - 17/11/08 09:13 AM

Bramble makes a good point - that someone in the future might not handload and shoot appropriate ammo in this re-chambered gun. The way civil litigation works in the States, is the onus falls back on the original owner and gunsmith who re-chambered/altered it, not the gun's manufacturer.

For me to do the job and maintain it's feeding, as with many others, there would never be a problem - iwth appropriate ammo. We all know descent loads suitable for dangerous game could be loaded which would be safe. One need only look at .45 3 1/4" data from Lyman, Hodgdon or AA to see it.

The big question is, considering all, is it wise to re-chamber? A big 'NOT' in my opinion.

The .45/70 itself can easily be loaded to very descent ballistics in the sub-30,000PSI range - almsot 2,000fps with 400gr. will handle anything this side of the big ponds, including grizzlies and browns and most of Africa's offerings. The .45/70 400gr. solid load that Pierce or Barnsness put through 4 cape buffalo shoulders with one shot should prove something - except for those who think such penetration isn't sufficient. That load's velocity is well within this gun's range. Is more needed?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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watto
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Re: REM/Baikal 45-70, I took the Plunge [Re: DarylS]
      #119017 - 17/11/08 09:38 PM

G'day all.
I knew I would get some controversy going here, but that is good, because a forum should be an exchange of ideas.
I should state at this point that the idea was to get better than 45-70 performance at a lower pressure by using a larger capacity case. When this is suggested the problem is always brought up of people possibly overloading with dire consequences. If we follow this logic through we would not be using vintage firearms at all. Damascus barrels, Nitro for Black and early hammer NE rifles and guns could not be used because somebody might use the wrong load. I think all of us here admire and respect GW for the great work he has put into his book and I for one trust his pressure figures.

If such a conversion did prove viable I would be using the the 25,500 psi load suggested in GW's book, with probably a lighter projectile such as the Woodliegh 350 RNSN, which should drop the pressure even further. Having said that if I did such a conversion, it would be sensible I believe to go back to the old idea and stamp the load on the barrel or action. The most practical conversion
would probably be the 45-110, which can give a 200fps advantage over the 45-70 for about the same pressure.

All the best and good shooting, Ian.

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500Nitro
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Re: REM/Baikal 45-70, I took the Plunge [Re: watto]
      #119018 - 17/11/08 09:44 PM



Watto

Most of what you are asking has been thrashed over to the
'nth degree already.

Might oay to go and have a read of some of the discussions
around the world.

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500Nitro
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Re: REM/Baikal 45-70, I took the Plunge [Re: watto]
      #119019 - 17/11/08 09:46 PM

Quote:

G'day all.
The most practical conversion would probably be the 45-110, which can give a 200fps advantage over the 45-70 for about
the same pressure.




And any animal you point the gun at is going to so
"Who gives a fuck".

200 fps ain't going to make that much of a difference.

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Marrakai
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Re: REM/Baikal 45-70, I took the Plunge [Re: 500Nitro]
      #119022 - 17/11/08 11:27 PM

As others have stated, the Baikal SxS DR certainly does have a marked reduction in barrel diameter immediately in front of the chamber. The U/O is even worse!
Whether or not lengthening the chamber would create a dangerously thin section at this point could only be determined by measuring a new rifle.

It doesn't look like chamber-reaming the SxS to .45-90 or .45-110 would cause the barrels to fall off the front of the chambers,
but reaming for the oft-suggested .450 No.2 conversion just might!




Look, it is what it is! This sow's ear will never be a silk purse, whatever the chambering, so why risk your personal safety, or at the very least your warranty!

Besides, the damn thing only weighs 3.35 kg!!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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DarylS
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Re: REM/Baikal 45-70, I took the Plunge [Re: Marrakai]
      #119034 - 18/11/08 03:34 AM

Nice picture - I've only seen the '06 and a simple stock modification and re-finish would do wonders for it's fit and looks.

What I see is an excellent guide gun as well as a hunting rifle for all of our big game.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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450_366
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Re: REM/Baikal 45-70, I took the Plunge [Re: Marrakai]
      #119065 - 18/11/08 10:34 AM

Looking at from the angle, i must say that it has a nice taper and profile on the barrel.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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bwananelson
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Reged: 08/10/07
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Re: REM/Baikal 45-70, I took the Plunge [Re: 450_366]
      #119074 - 18/11/08 01:53 PM

this is what we were all fearing pushing a cheap double past what it was built to do.let it be what it was buit to do be a 45 70.there is noting that wont drop to this caliber short of dangerous game in africa and only 4 of them.lets see when we here a story when one blows up first any bets.less than a year i say.

--------------------
THERE ARE NO DO OVERS IN LIFE DONT LET A CHANCE AT A DREAM SLIP AWAY.

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500Nitro
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Re: REM/Baikal 45-70, I took the Plunge [Re: bwananelson]
      #119076 - 18/11/08 02:04 PM

Quote:

this is what we were all fearing pushing a cheap double past what it was built to do.let it be what it was buit to do be a 45 70.there is noting that wont drop to this caliber short of dangerous game in africa and only 4 of them.lets see when we here a story when one blows up first any bets.less than a year i say.




Yep, I reckon it should be a year or 2, if you can find a gunsmith to do it, although I think some people may do it themsleves.

It's the next lot of owners that has me worried.


When she blows, she'll blow.

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bwananelson
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Re: REM/Baikal 45-70, I took the Plunge [Re: 500Nitro]
      #119110 - 19/11/08 02:52 AM

BTW i am not downing this rifle i have bothe the 06 and 45 70 but i want them fot what they are not what i wish they were.have you ever seen a 5'2" center of an NBA team,hmmm wonder why maybe if i built some lifts into his sneakers yea thats it 24" sneaker lifts.play it safe guys if you want a bigger gun save and wait but enjoy the bakail for what it was meant to be.

--------------------
THERE ARE NO DO OVERS IN LIFE DONT LET A CHANCE AT A DREAM SLIP AWAY.

Edited by bwananelson (19/11/08 07:07 AM)

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WCF
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Re: REM/Baikal 45-70, I took the Plunge [Re: bwananelson]
      #119217 - 20/11/08 07:16 AM

Well I have hunted with the 30-06 for one week now and I have to say its been joy. I have taken two nice whitetail bucks and have enthused those around me with the gun. I have fired a total of 80 rounds through the gun without a problem. The guns regulation is spot on and while the scope is a bit large for the gun I could not have asked for more from a bargain priced double. I've learned to live with the trigger pulls and stock design. I would advise to anyone who purchases; let these guns be what they are. The chambering's are suitable for anything I think you would encounter here in the states. The 30-06 have proved easier to regulate than the 45-70 but even with that they are both worth what I've paid. Still hunting for another week so I'll get back to the woods. Have a great day.

wcf

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4seventy
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Re: REM/Baikal 45-70, I took the Plunge [Re: WCF]
      #119223 - 20/11/08 09:40 AM

Quote:

Well I have hunted with the 30-06 for one week now and I have to say its been joy. I have taken two nice whitetail bucks and have enthused those around me with the gun. I have fired a total of 80 rounds through the gun without a problem. The guns regulation is spot on and while the scope is a bit large for the gun I could not have asked for more from a bargain priced double. I've learned to live with the trigger pulls and stock design. I would advise to anyone who purchases; let these guns be what they are. The chambering's are suitable for anything I think you would encounter here in the states. The 30-06 have proved easier to regulate than the 45-70 but even with that they are both worth what I've paid. Still hunting for another week so I'll get back to the woods. Have a great day.





WCF,
You have hit the nail right on the head there!

Glad to hear that they are working well for you.

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tarawa
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Re: REM/Baikal 45-70, I took the Plunge [Re: 4seventy]
      #119254 - 21/11/08 01:12 AM

I am itching to get my '06 double in the woods and put some pork on the table! I am also still looking to get the 45-70. It seems as if a few more are showing up.

--------------------
Life is for Service

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WCF
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Re: REM/Baikal 45-70, I took the Plunge [Re: tarawa]
      #119321 - 22/11/08 10:56 AM

Thanks to all for the info on these Baikal doubles. Are the 30-06's drying up. I'm seeing very few of them and was hoping to latch onto a couple more. I broke down and purchased another 45-70. Don't know why; at least that's the only reason I could give my wife,

wcf

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bwananelson
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Re: REM/Baikal 45-70, I took the Plunge [Re: WCF]
      #119342 - 23/11/08 03:01 AM

send picture

--------------------
THERE ARE NO DO OVERS IN LIFE DONT LET A CHANCE AT A DREAM SLIP AWAY.

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Sgt_Brown
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Re: REM/Baikal 45-70, I took the Plunge [Re: farshot]
      #141265 - 28/08/09 09:33 AM

The fellows over at Accurate Reloading have been using, of all things, an airgun mount and are having great success. Apparently airguns are MUCH harder on scopes than most people believe. This mount has been holding up to their 45/70's and 06's just fine. (And it is inexpensive.):

http://tinyurl.com/m4nhpg

I bought one but haven't mounted it yet.

I got a 45/70 last week. Haven't been able to get it to the range yet. The triggers on mine are so bad I am considering having my gunsmith buddy work them over before I even try.

To me, the rear sight is a gashed hand just waiting to happen. One good slip on the side of a hill and you're going to be gushing blood. I'm considering the Lyman folding leaf dovetail sight (the one many put on rifles with scopes) as a prime candidate for the replacement. I'm also considering a (real) ivory bead front sight from Brownell's.

Additionally, there is a guy on GunBroker selling Remington "suitcase" hard cases. I assume they were originally for 3200's but will take a SxS and accessories. I just won one. Make a classy accessory for a Remington/Baikal.

Tom

--------------------
NRA Life member
DRSS

Learn to ride hard, shoot straight, dance well and so live that you can - if necessary - look any man in the eye and tell him to go to Hell. - US Cavalry Manual 1923

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bwananelson
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Re: REM/Baikal 45-70, I took the Plunge [Re: Sgt_Brown]
      #141266 - 28/08/09 09:54 AM

they sell a weaver mount for weaver rings that fit a 22 rail thats what i use on mine its from cabelas sold for 9$ .and i use 30mm rings and have a swarovski hoohed up one with a circle dot scope.

--------------------
THERE ARE NO DO OVERS IN LIFE DONT LET A CHANCE AT A DREAM SLIP AWAY.

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4570Govt
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Re: REM/Baikal 45-70, I took the Plunge [Re: bwananelson]
      #141774 - 09/09/09 07:53 AM

Greetings
I have used a set of Millett rings designed for the BRNO/CZ 452 with good success. Not quick detach, but very positive.
John

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Sgt_Brown
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Re: REM/Baikal 45-70, I took the Plunge [Re: 4570Govt]
      #141999 - 14/09/09 09:31 AM

Sighting/regulating the barrels with the OEM iron sights... Are you guys finding the guns are anywhere in the ball park out of the box? Best to start at 25 yards?

I broke down and bought the '06. Now I have two of the darned things to get shooting. Point of interest: The 30/06 weighs exactly one pound heavier than the 45/70... 7 lb 7 oz to 6 lb 7 oz. As both rifles use basically the same action/buttstock, that extra weight (thickness) has to be in the barrels. I suspect that explains why the '06 can take higher pressures than the 45/70.

Tom

--------------------
NRA Life member
DRSS

Learn to ride hard, shoot straight, dance well and so live that you can - if necessary - look any man in the eye and tell him to go to Hell. - US Cavalry Manual 1923

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4570Govt
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Re: REM/Baikal 45-70, I took the Plunge [Re: Sgt_Brown]
      #142012 - 14/09/09 02:33 PM

Greetings
My experience with this rifle is as follows. After 160 rounds fired (45-70), it apprear that my rifle has a preferance for the 405gr bullet. I have tried 300's, 405's and 500's, both jacketed and hard lead. Using a 50 yard base to start, I have seen groups from all over the spectrum. One mild load with a 405 hard cast lead groups both barrels on the same vertical line, and about 3 inches apart horizontally. Another load with the 300 had the same vertical line, and 12 inches horizontally.
With some work, i am positive this rifle will shoot both barrels into a 3-4 inch group or better, at 100 yds.
( my best group for the 405 was 3 shots touching for the left barrel, and the 3 for the right barrel 3 inches high and right into a 1" group)
Every time i shoot it, i grin and chuckle. I would love to own a classic Wm. Evans, or Purdy, but reality dictates a rifle i can afford. I shot a Javelina (collard peccary) with a 300 in February, and to say the least, it was adequate. I plan to use it for Elk in December, and will try the 300 Barnes as i need to use non lead.
When i shoot, all the range curmudgeons stop and watch. Some can appreciate the appeal, some can not. All in all the rifle is fun, and the recoil therapy worthwhile.
Shoot Safe!
John

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