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JefferyDenmark
.300 member


Reged: 10/06/04
Posts: 101
Loc: The Kingdom of Denmark
Why NO oil?
      #116925 - 14/10/08 09:55 PM

Gentlemen

I got my double today it is better then I expected - WOW is all I can say.
One thing amazes me though why on earth does so many double rifles come without oil worked stocks? Not even the grain has been sealed? I have seen this on Doubles from Heym, Krieghoff and now this Sodia? The wood is great and the engraving very nice. Why not finish the product by giving the stock some grain sealer and a cote or two at least? this could be done in two days while other work was being done.
The only fair prices double I have seen that came with a good finished stock is the Searcy.
I have no problem with finishing the stock myself as I know the tricks and have done many fine stocks, but I now that there are many people out there that does not know how to do it.
A good sealed and oil polished stock becomes much harder and is NOT scared as easy as the unfinished ones.

PS here are some pictures of the double, will post pictures after I finish it, this will take about 30 days or so

Cheers,

André































--------------------
Always always use enough ... GUN


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93mouse
.375 member


Reged: 17/08/07
Posts: 734
Loc: Slovenia
Re: Why NO oil? [Re: JefferyDenmark]
      #116927 - 14/10/08 10:20 PM

Jeffery - I will put you under "ignore" as long as you will post pics of that rifle - no idea about NO oil - who cares JK

BTW - any idea what Schweigert brothers had to do with the rifle?


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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Why NO oil? [Re: 93mouse]
      #116945 - 15/10/08 03:16 AM

Jeffery-

That rifle was completed without the oil-finish, with the white-line spacers and 'pussy-man' recoil pad, and chambered as such for one reason...

...so that it could sit in a perfectly suspended (neglect) idle state until you came along to steal it for too little money!


Enjoy the rifle.
I look forward to seeing the wood when you're finished 'waking it up'


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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JefferyDenmark
.300 member


Reged: 10/06/04
Posts: 101
Loc: The Kingdom of Denmark
Re: Why NO oil? [Re: tinker]
      #116951 - 15/10/08 03:53 AM

Whatever do you mean,. I paid top Dollar for that rifle
Inone of my Holt's catalogues I have a picture of a purdey 12/65 SXS with the same white line Pechmeyer pad who does this?

Cheers,

André

--------------------
Always always use enough ... GUN


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new_guy
Sponsor


Reged: 10/08/04
Posts: 581
Loc: Texas
Re: Why NO oil? [Re: JefferyDenmark]
      #117011 - 16/10/08 12:43 AM

André – you won’t have to look at too many German or Austrian guns to see that they haven’t been filling the pores for that long. In most European gunmaking countries and the UK too, the wood was seen by gunmakers as something to hold on to their excellent metal work and engraving with.

In the last 10 or so years, this has changed a dramatically for all makers, and it has largely been at the request/demand of the American market. Americans would rather have good wood than engraving, whereas most Europeans were just the opposite. Generally speaking, it was a cultural difference.

So European makers can and do fill the pores and use nicer grades of wood today, but traditionally they have charged more for these as they weren’t seen as being important gunmakers' customers.

If you look at the highest end of the English guns, you’ll still encounter pretty plain wood on the lower grades up until recently.

Here is a 20 bore Boss SxS made in the 1960’s. I can’t imagine a higher quality SxS shotgun from a better maker, but it still has a very, plain piece of wood. The photo is not the best, but you can clearly see the wood is sub standard for what we would expect today on a new Boss.


Yes, you will find lot’s of older HEYM doubles with unfilled pores, but all new made rifles have the pores filled. Here is one made last year that’s sitting near my desk. Although the finish is “matte” and dull, this is still the lowest grade “PH” with all of the pores filled.


The higher grade built-up finishes are also available, but they are typically seen on higher grade guns, and this type of work costs more. But clearly the wood is high grade and the pores are all filled.


For the vintage and grade of your FS, it has the finish and grade of wood that would have been expected on it. It is, nonetheless, a very nice and well made rifle.

--------------------
www.heymUSA.com


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Paul
.400 member


Reged: 28/08/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Re: Why NO oil? [Re: new_guy]
      #117055 - 16/10/08 01:28 PM

Is grain filling a traditional practice or a modern decadence? I thought the English London finish consisted of raising the grain by repeatedly sanding, wetting and heat-drying the wood until it was as smooth to the feel after drying as after sanding; hot lindseed oil (I believe) was applied and rubbed in with the palm of the hand and rubbed again once a day for a week. The finish tends to be smooth and shiny up to a point but less flashy than modern plastic finishes and can be touched up with more oil (mixed with turps?) after wet days.

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ArnoldB
.300 member


Reged: 23/07/04
Posts: 139
Loc: Uk
Re: Why NO oil? [Re: Paul]
      #117067 - 16/10/08 03:26 PM

It is a traditional practice. What does happen from time to time as the oil hardens over a couple of years it will sink more into the pores of the wood giving the impression of not having been grainfilled.

Why no oil, time pressure and the availability of modern finishes. The finish in the first pictures look to me like an epoxy oil finish, one coat, 24hr hardening, checkering done and it is waterproof(80% iirc), unlike the traditional oil finish.


In the olden days there wasn't any exhibition circassian walnut available afaik, most makers used French or even English walnut and they can never get near to the exhibition grade of Circassian walnut. Same goes for engraving how many old guns have you seen with gamescene engravings? It was Ken Hunt who started the elaborous engraving on guns afaik. Most had standard scroll on them, no bulino, deep carving of animals etc... Expectations of a gun have gone up over the years. (I'm talking pre 1960's)

Edited by ArnoldB (16/10/08 03:53 PM)


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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Why NO oil? [Re: ArnoldB]
      #117072 - 16/10/08 04:00 PM

Arnold-

I have guns and rifles from the 1830's through the 1880's with *very* nicely done game scene engraving - not late 20th century photo/grayscale bulino, but very nice.


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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JefferyDenmark
.300 member


Reged: 10/06/04
Posts: 101
Loc: The Kingdom of Denmark
Re: Why NO oil? [Re: new_guy]
      #117091 - 17/10/08 05:35 AM

Quote:

André – you won’t have to look at too many German or Austrian guns to see that they haven’t been filling the pores for that long. In most European gunmaking countries and the UK too, the wood was seen by gunmakers as something to hold on to their excellent metal work and engraving with.

In the last 10 or so years, this has changed a dramatically for all makers, and it has largely been at the request/demand of the American market. Americans would rather have good wood than engraving, whereas most Europeans were just the opposite. Generally speaking, it was a cultural difference.

So European makers can and do fill the pores and use nicer grades of wood today, but traditionally they have charged more for these as they weren’t seen as being important gunmakers' customers.

If you look at the highest end of the English guns, you’ll still encounter pretty plain wood on the lower grades up until recently.

Here is a 20 bore Boss SxS made in the 1960’s. I can’t imagine a higher quality SxS shotgun from a better maker, but it still has a very, plain piece of wood. The photo is not the best, but you can clearly see the wood is sub standard for what we would expect today on a new Boss.


Yes, you will find lot’s of older HEYM doubles with unfilled pores, but all new made rifles have the pores filled. Here is one made last year that’s sitting near my desk. Although the finish is “matte” and dull, this is still the lowest grade “PH” with all of the pores filled.


The higher grade built-up finishes are also available, but they are typically seen on higher grade guns, and this type of work costs more. But clearly the wood is high grade and the pores are all filled.


For the vintage and grade of your FS, it has the finish and grade of wood that would have been expected on it. It is, nonetheless, a very nice and well made rifle.





NOT true!
My friends Heym PH did NOT come with graines filled pores! Even though we asked for it! I have the corespondence! He did get upgraded fine handmade checkering and some folding sights on the PH but the Grain was and is still not filled!!!!!! Nice working rifle but unfinished and totally unacetable when he asked for it. Due to the fact that he lives in Tanzania where it took 3 months to get the paperwork, sending it back is not an option that he is comsidering! I will do it for him next time I go there. It was a nice upgraded piece of wood and I was in chock to learn that they did not seal the grain!

Cheers,

André

--------------------
Always always use enough ... GUN


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lapua
.333 member


Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 438
Loc: Australia
Re: Why NO oil? [Re: JefferyDenmark]
      #117865 - 29/10/08 06:51 PM

My 2 cents worth well my HEYM 88b safari not a cheap heym
came from the factory unfilled as well , I have to agree with Jeffery here .. not all statements made by others are correct ! That gun being the 1st 450/400 ever made by heym should have been up there in the finished dept IMHO.


--------------------
Cheers

lapua

ADF VETERAN ARMY

Lest We Forget


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Mike_Bailey
.400 member


Reged: 26/02/07
Posts: 2289
Loc: GB
Re: Why NO oil? [Re: lapua]
      #117867 - 29/10/08 08:12 PM

Very true about the standard of wood used years ago. I saw two Purdeys from the 1920's a while back and while the wood to metal fit was superb I've seen more figure in an IKEA table I don't think the Heym is cheap !? of course they should give it a proper oil finish, best, Mike

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Der_Jaeger
.375 member


Reged: 09/10/08
Posts: 607
Loc: SE Pennsylvania
Re: Why NO oil? [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #117875 - 29/10/08 10:02 PM

I've had similar experiences with less than adequate finishes on the stocks of my guns. My Merkel 247SL arrived with about 70% of the pores filles so I sanded it down, refinished the stock, and put on a leather pad over a 3/4" extension. It now looks better than most finishes I've seen on the highest grade guns. It's actually satisfying doing the work myself and bringing out the true quality of the wood by letting the hand rubbed oil lift the color from the grain. I have a collection of Weatherby's that I've stripped of the ugly polyurethane coat and applied a best grade oil finish and they all look superb.

So, while I'd rather have an impeccably finished stock straight from the maker, I also welcome the opportunity to do the work myself. By the way, all of my rifles get a London orange Silver's pad!

--------------------


Edited by Der_Jaeger (29/10/08 11:49 PM)


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9.3x57
.450 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5504
Loc: United States
Re: Why NO oil? [Re: Der_Jaeger]
      #117881 - 29/10/08 11:41 PM

I bought a Heym SR20 bolt gun in .375 H&H Mag in the mid-80's.

Took it out in the rain once and the thing grew "hair" all over!

Stock had never been sealed and should have been an embarassment to any gunmaker capable of being embarrassed, which at the time I don't think Heym was...

That gun was such a piece of junk I sent it back and got a SAKO in exchange. I still have that one.

Other problems with that Heym included poor bedding, a cocking piece that followed the bolt down, and then I got a card in the mail from Heym stating something to the effect that a certain number of the welded-on bolt handles were known to fall off. Please send the bolt back and we'll fix it before it breaks.

I sent the whole piece of rubbish back and have never even looked at another Heym SR20 since. Interestingly, the company that sold me the gun didn't balk at swapping it out, and commented that they had had a lot of trouble with that model. I don't think I was the first to complain.

I have since read that some SR20's are good guns, but mine wasn't.

A badly finished stock wasn't the only trouble, but it was certainly a problem of the first order. I guess if a guy is going to leave a gun in a cabinet, who cares what the stock finish is. But for guns that are going to be used, it matters a lot.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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new_guy
Sponsor


Reged: 10/08/04
Posts: 581
Loc: Texas
Re: Why NO oil? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #117885 - 30/10/08 12:50 AM

Andre - I can't argue that the pores were or were not filled on your friends rifle. You have seen it, I have not. As stated above, however, I can tell you that I've never received a new double from HEYM that did not have the pores filled.

Here is the one example that have handy.


And here is Matt's rifle that he recently posted on another thread.



--------------------
www.heymUSA.com


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JefferyDenmark
.300 member


Reged: 10/06/04
Posts: 101
Loc: The Kingdom of Denmark
Re: Why NO oil? [Re: new_guy]
      #118028 - 31/10/08 10:46 PM

New Guy
Maybe Heym has more focus on the stock for the US market! Good for your customers.
I just find it a bit hard to accept that they told my friend that they woul fill all the graines in, and then did nothing at all. He specifically asked for it on a semi custom gun.
I was the one that recomended him the gun and feel somewhat part of this missery. Hope you undestand - I am angry with Heym

Cheers,

André

--------------------
Always always use enough ... GUN


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Der_Jaeger
.375 member


Reged: 09/10/08
Posts: 607
Loc: SE Pennsylvania
Re: Why NO oil? [Re: JefferyDenmark]
      #118034 - 31/10/08 11:51 PM


Understandable, Andre. It's one thing to buy a gun as-is knowing that you'll have to do the finishing yourself, but it's an entirely different matter to order the gun the way you want to have it finished and then not have the order filled as described. I'd feel the same responsibility to the person I recommended the gun, too. As a customer, the other option is to send the gun back and have it finished the way it was promised.

--------------------


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JefferyDenmark
.300 member


Reged: 10/06/04
Posts: 101
Loc: The Kingdom of Denmark
Re: Why NO oil? [Re: Der_Jaeger]
      #118057 - 01/11/08 03:20 AM

The only BIG problem with your solution is that getting the rifle into Tanzania took 4 months and that was with extra cash and good connections, normally this process is 6 months.
Getting the rifle to Heym and back would be a year long project! One hunting season with out a back up rifle!
Had is been my rifle - well I would drive to Germany, like I did with my Express rifle in .500 Jeffery and tell them what to fix . I canb also fix up the stock on my own guns with CCL oil products, but as you all know this is a 30 day project where the rifle is to no use. and then the rifle should rest for about 14 days for the oil to harden up. I an doing this to my own double NOW.
My friend o the other hand does not have the time or skills to this.
What to do?

Cheers,

André

--------------------
Always always use enough ... GUN


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JefferyDenmark
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Reged: 10/06/04
Posts: 101
Loc: The Kingdom of Denmark
Re: Why NO oil? [Re: JefferyDenmark]
      #125186 - 27/01/09 02:20 AM

Gentlemen,

She is done!

Cheers,

André







--------------------
Always always use enough ... GUN


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Der_Jaeger
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Reged: 09/10/08
Posts: 607
Loc: SE Pennsylvania
Re: Why NO oil? [Re: JefferyDenmark]
      #125188 - 27/01/09 02:47 AM


Andre,

Very nice indeed!!! You did an outstanding job. Impressive! Properly applied, an oil finish reaches deep into the structure of the stock and brings the grain out to it's fullest. You should be very pleased with the results.

--------------------


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beleg2
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Reged: 15/08/07
Posts: 591
Loc: Bahía Blanca - Argentina
Re: Why NO oil? [Re: Der_Jaeger]
      #125192 - 27/01/09 04:48 AM

Nice job André!
What product and procedure you use?
Thanks
Martin


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JefferyDenmark
.300 member


Reged: 10/06/04
Posts: 101
Loc: The Kingdom of Denmark
Re: Why NO oil? [Re: beleg2]
      #125195 - 27/01/09 06:07 AM

CCL products
First grain sealer and then conditioning oil.
Ohhh yeah and lots of time

Cheers,

André

--------------------
Always always use enough ... GUN


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26619
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Why NO oil? [Re: JefferyDenmark]
      #125205 - 27/01/09 09:07 AM

Looks very nice, Jeffery. I agree - as received, it was a horrible job. Once the grain is filled,one can have a gloss or matt finish - the hard and necessary work is done - imho, of course, just like this one I finished.


--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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lapua
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Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 438
Loc: Australia
Re: Why NO oil? [Re: DarylS]
      #125234 - 28/01/09 01:31 AM

Good job mate brought out the colours wonderfully.

lapua


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JefferyDenmark
.300 member


Reged: 10/06/04
Posts: 101
Loc: The Kingdom of Denmark
Re: Why NO oil? [Re: lapua]
      #125239 - 28/01/09 03:44 AM

Thanks LWUUUUUUUUUU

Cheers,

André

--------------------
Always always use enough ... GUN


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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: Why NO oil? [Re: JefferyDenmark]
      #125316 - 29/01/09 01:17 AM

JeffreyDenmark

Your gun looks awesome----you did a fantastic job..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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